[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

I've been doing more extensive, rigorous testing against Delver decks, using the following list:

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

Note the addition of a 21st land, as suggested by Kirby. Also, no Sliver Hives, as suggested by me. I don't miss them. The manabase feels pretty comfortable to me. And then there's the Ponders, which I stand by. But they could be Dazes, or Plows, or whatever.

As for the matchups... After playing several dozen games, I'm tentatively prepared to say the following. The matchup against the Pyromancer version of Delver seems to be in our favor, somewhere in the range of 55/45 to 60/40. However, the Canadian Thresh version, with good ol' geese and goyfs, is tougher. That matchup seems to be almost exactly 50/50.

Do you ever feel the need for more than 4 Flying-providing Slivers, or can we win on the ground often enough in the cases where Winged doesn't show up?

Do you always play T1 Galerider when you have it and no Vial? When might you cantrip instead of Galerider on T1? Perhaps digging for hate against combo?

Well, you do lose games due to not finding Galerider fast enough, of course. But not too often, I think. You can often (but not always) win a ground contest, especially if you land a Syphon. Ponders help with finding Galerider, obviously. In fact, I'm considering dropping a Muscle to add the third Ponder back in.

On whether or not to play Galerider on T1, that's an excellent question, and one I ask myself a lot. If you play it out against a deck with Plows or Bolts, you gotta figure there's a 50% chance it won't survive long enough to swing. I think, generally, it's best not to play it unless you have another one ready to go. Ponder is generally for finding land or Crystalline early, then muscle or Syphon midgame, then Galerider to finish. In games 2 and 3, it's also for finding your hate cards.

Another note: Against Miracles, you actually want to dig for Hibernation Sliver more than Crystalline. Hibernation makes Terminus a joke.

So I went to the shop yesterday and ended with a nice 3-0-1.

I took finally the aggressive version including 21 lands as suggested and chalice.

We were around 20 players, I saw Miracles x 2, Elves x 2, MUD x 2, D&T x 2, Lands, Goblins, OmniShow and the rest I don't know.


4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

SB: 4 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Vapor Snag


R1: Lands (Eternal Gardens)

G1 I Fow his T1 Brainstorm (maybe a mistake). Then he quickly assembles but I have on the board crystalline, hibernation, galerider and a couple of mutavaults. He can't pass the wall and I win.
+ 2 vapor snag
+ 1 needle
- 3 Chalice
G2 he assembles T2 and I scoope
G3 I keep a one lander with Vial, Vapor Snag and Phantasmal Image. He assembles T2 but I can Vapor Snag his token. Then he wastes me and gets a Tabernacle which leaves me with the sole Vial. He assembles, attacks but I vial in the Image copying his token. 1-0

R2: Death and Taxes

G1 I face an early Sword of Ice and Fire but he can't get through Hibernation. I land a Syphon and race him.
+4 Harmonic
- 2 Phantasmal Image
- 1 Muscle
- 1 Crystalline
G2 I Fow his vial and land a T2 Chalice. He scoops, revealing 2 mum and 2 StP. 2-0

R3: Goblins

G1 An army of goblins with haste and two lords roll over me
+ 4 Harmonic (I fear blood moon)
- 2 Image
- 2 xx (don't remember, not blue)
G2 T2 Crystalline was gg, he shows me a hand full of targeted hate
- 3 Chalice
+ 1 Image
+ 2 slivers I boarded out earlier
G3 he mulls to 4, keeping a vial, lackey and wastelands. Bad news, I have 4 lands, Vial, Muscle and Harmonic. I make him waste my T1 Mutavault, land a muscle as blocker for his lackey and the Harmonic T4 is enough. 3-0

R4 Monastery Mentor Miracles

G1 I keep a hand without Crystalline or Hibernation, he swords, bolts everything but I fow his monastery and I can finally go through with Cavern + Crystalline + lords
+ 4 Harmonic
+ 2 Vapor snag
- 2 Image
- 1 Winged
- 2 Lords
- 1 Crystalline (maybe, don't remember)
G2 Long game. I have early chalice on 1 and vial but he manages to remove everything. I keep Hibernation and lords, can recover from 3 Terminus thanks to Syphon, but he has Jace and finally lands a Blood Moon while at 4 and me having all slivers in hand following a Terminus. No Mutavault, no vial and he can combo.
G3 We play the last 5 rounds. He lands a blood moon but misses one round to win. 3-0-1

Thoughts:
- They couldn't believe I was on the final table with slivers. Nice.
- Chalice is good, won me two games, kept me alive vs Miracles
- I didn't miss more counters most of the time
- Phantasmal Image is sometime useful (as a lord, for Fow), sometimes awesome. I could imagine a 3rd one.
- Syphon is good but I could imagine get down to 2
- I need to work this SB out. I'll definitely keep the Harmonic, Vapor Snag and RiP. I could add a Canonist for Elves and Storm instead of Trap
- We need something for Blood Moon. Really.
- didn't miss Brainstorm but that was only 4 rounds
- Manabase : I miss an Underground Sea but I would keep some Hives. 21 Lands seems better

My changes would be for MB:
- 1 Tundra
+ 1 Underground Sea
+ 1 Phantasmal Image
- 1 Syphon

The Sideboard needs some improvement. G1 we can compete most of the time. We need to fight Blood Moon with blue mana.

EDIT : I was thinking of adding Seal of Cleansing, Surgical Extraction and Canonist to compensate the weaknesses of the board.

We have a competitive deck, most of the time 50/50 minimum vs current meta. With a bit of refining and a better SB I can imagine performing at the same level T2 than Burn, Merfolk or D&T.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ultrab77

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

SB: 4 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Vapor Snag

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Gratz !

Hibernation n°4 and only 10 lords are something I will consider testing.

How have you liked the 1-of Winged ?

How was your mana base ? Did you get stuck with uncastable Slivers/Spells in hand ?

Nice job, Ultra! You guys may win me over to this aggro-chalice plan yet!

As for sideboard cards to deal with Blood Moon... The first thing that comes to my mind is blue blasts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volt

Nice job, Ultra! You guys may win me over to this aggro-chalice plan yet!

As for sideboard cards to deal with Blood Moon... The first thing that comes to my mind is blue blasts.

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Don't get psycho about BM effect.
We are already at a healthy 8 cards against such a card (4 Vial + 4 FOW). If you add 2x Echoing Truth and keep an island in the deck you are at 10 cards.

You cannot draw any conclusion at this very stage and I would rather play cards impacting wider MU than just answering potential moon blood decks.

Let's first work out the SB and finish the MB before anything else.

Blue blasts are great against BM, but do we have good targets other than the enchantment? Is Pyromancer a problem, for example? Sneak Attack?

If we're likely to have 2-3 Harmonics anyway, then Echoing Truth is useful to bounce it and then play a Harmonic to destroy it if they try to play it again and we don't have FoW. I like that Truth is useful against other threats and disruption as well.

I agree with Ralf that we shouldn't get too hung up on a single piece of hate, but at the same time the process of tuning a sideboard is identifying threats to our gameplan and countering them (or shifting our gameplan to be resilient to them). A balanced approach would be to consider cards that help against a given card (e.g. Blood Moon) while also covering other threats. For example, Harmonic Sliver covers a variety of disruption, but requires a Vial or multicolored mana to cast it.

For now and given the mana base you are electing to play there is just an alternative:

Either you play a hatebear board with some of the best hatebears white provides.

Or you can play a more spell oriented board.

I have no clue at the moment which one is better.

Meddling mage / Ethersworn / Priest (nonbo with vial) / Tidehollow scullers are a hell of cards. They are along the deck core synergy but are also hated by the very same cards hating aggro deck (sweepers to name it). Not to mention that they do not profit from Crystalline or Hibernation abilities.

Hatebears are also on the slow trend against combo decks. But I like the synergy they provide with a chalice plan.
MM is asking for hand knowledge to get the best out of them. We are not playing discards so that we might need to put some scullers along with them.

It will be hard to come up with a perfect sideboard but at least we can mix up sideboard tables and see what is missing / lacking with each plans. Be it a hatebear oriented sideboard or a more spell oriented.

Just keep in mind we are an aggro deck and being able to push through the last point of damage might be the only thing we should care about in the very end.

My Thoughts:
- 4 Mutavault + dual + island + 2 fetch

pros:
often Muta is "win more" (without other slivers just 2/2 and you do not need him when you have some sliver.)
fixing Land base, better for : Daze, Brainstorm, counter, better color support
My experience: I loose more games for having a Muta instead of an island than winning a game with Muta.

contra:
muta is a land making damage
nice interaction between muta and crystallien/Hibernation and Vial

Maybe make higher {B} count and play for example [card]Thougtseize[/card] to have more cards against combo decks.

List

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thoughtseize

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Surgical extraction
2 Spell Pierce
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Thoughtseize
1 dismember
1 Tormod's Crypt

I think I will test something like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkanelf

My Thoughts:
- 4 Mutavault + dual + island + 2 fetch

I think I will test something like that.

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I think you should try it and give us some feedbacks.

The issues I see are twofolds:

- TS is a pretty dead draw after early game
- Daze is a pretty dead draw after early game, even more in a list not playing stifle NOR wasteland.

Not to mention that, Mutavault is being played in most Merfolk decks since ages. Unless they are wrong, there must be a very good reason why they are still doing so.

Don't forget that Merfolk & Slivers are not dangerous by themselves (you don't drop a lord and call it a day like resolving a tarmo); only quantity (swarm) matters.
Once you have reached a critical mass (4 slivers in play can be seen as the upper critical mass), you are basically unstoppable (save sweeper).

If mana base is an issue and Blood Moon is a serious threat, why not to try to add some mana producing slivers?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Don't forget that Merfolk & Slivers are not dangerous by themselves (you don't drop a lord and call it a day like resolving a tarmo); only quantity (swarm) matters.

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Actually, True Name Nemesis is quite dangerous on his own and sometimes I wonder if my Merfolk deck would be stronger if I had only TNN and Phantasmal Image in it and used the rest of the space for counterspells/cantrips and controls. There is no equivalent to TNN among slivers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Either you play a hatebear board with some of the best hatebears white provides.

Or you can play a more spell oriented board.

I have no clue at the moment which one is better.

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Primarily from a theoretical stand point. But my inclination given the shell (Caverns, Chalice and Aether Vial) it would stand to reason that Hatebears play to this deck construction better.

IE Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Envelop, Swan Song, etc are shut down by Chalice. There is a non-zero amount of relevance that they cannot be cast off of a Sliver Hive + Cavern of Souls hand - where maybe some Galeriders, Muscles and Ethersworn Canonists could?

Given the lists people have been throwing around 7-8 Crystalline/Hibernation, 10-12 Muscle, 4-5 Galerider, 2-3 Syphon, 1-3 Image, Fows, Vials, Chalices and 21ish land. I might be inclined to board something like...

3 Rest in Peace
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyexian Revoker
1 Gaddock Teeg

Feel like this leaves 4-5 options to adjust vs most decks just to rattle off options vs current DTBs:

ANT - Canonist, Teeg, Revoker
BUG Shardless - RIP, maybe Harmonic if on Strix, maybe Revoker if heavier PWs, Submerge could be ok
Canadian Thresh - RIP and Submerge
Death and Taxes - Harmonic and Revoker
Elves - Submerge, Canonist, Priest, Revoker, Gaddock
Miracles - Needle, Revoker, Teeg, Harmonic
Team America - RIP and Submerge

Feel like RIP and Priest cover dedicated GY; Canonist and Submerge help against Infect; RIPs and Needle vs lands; Priests and Gaddock/Needle effects vs Sneak and Show.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkanelf

My Thoughts:
- 4 Mutavault + dual + island + 2 fetch
...
Maybe make higher {B} count and play for example [card]Thougtseize[/card] to have more cards against combo decks.

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Very interesting, please let us know how it performs if you test it. Thoughtseize was discarded in earlier versions of the deck because fetches and Hibernations already put a strain on our life total. Since you're not adding Syphon, that situation has not changed, and I have to imagine the result (namely that Thoughtseize is not viable) will not change either. Would be happy to be proven wrong.

An extra note in Mutavault's favor is that it does give us another angle to win on vs Sweepers, the counterargument being that Miracles can Terminus at instant speed after we animate our lands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronatog

If mana base is an issue and Blood Moon is a serious threat, why not to try to add some mana producing slivers?

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I've really been hoping that someone makes Homing Sliver, Eladamri's Call, Green Sun's Zenith, or Sylvan Library work. Then we can afford to run a wider variety of utility Slivers. As I wrote earlier, colors give us a variety of answers: if we're not taking advantage of it, we're opening ourselves up to inconsistency and disruption without maximizing the potential value of being multicolor. They're all safe from Chalice on 1, unlike blue cantrips. The problem is that we start to get low on blue cards for FoW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronatog

Actually, True Name Nemesis is quite dangerous on his own and sometimes I wonder if my Merfolk deck would be stronger if I had only TNN and Phantasmal Image in it and used the rest of the space for counterspells/cantrips and controls. There is no equivalent to TNN among slivers.

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Merfolk/Stoneblade aside: Merfolk has two ways of winning: swarming with Lord-buffed */1s, and attacking with TNN(s). These can work in concert, but the idea is that they have two powerful forms of evasion that can work independently. If you were going TNN-only, I think you'd be well-served to pivot towards Stoneblade, and run equipment on the unblockable Nemeses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

IE Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Envelop, Swan Song, etc are shut down by Chalice.

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Minor point: Flusterstorm in many cases is not shut down by Chalice. If we have a Chalice out, we can still Force Spike for at least one to try to counter their spell. If we don't have a Chalice out, hooray. It's also still useful against the copies of Storm's kill spell though they'll often Duress us beforehand to get rid of it. Merfolk commonly runs Flusterstorms in the side, along with 3-4 Chalices in the maindeck.

So, here's something that was barely considered and dismissed long ago, but might be pretty good tech now. Shadow Sliver. Just a singleton in the maindeck. If you're inclined to run a Winged as Galerider #5, consider this instead. This could be our TNN. Sort of. I'm going to test it out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volt

So, here's something that was barely considered and dismissed long ago, but might be pretty good tech now. Shadow Sliver. Just a singleton in the maindeck. If you're inclined to run a Winged as Galerider #5, consider this instead. This could be our TNN. Sort of. I'm going to test it out.

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I think Winged is a 5th life insurance against Delver. We are not trying to get another evasion tool rather something to have a better chance to find a mean to block flying threats.

This could be seen as 3rd Syphon, sort of.

Well, I won't argue about it too much until I've actually tested it for a while. I'll just point out that sometimes it's nice to have a way to attack through flyers. And there are other flying creatures in the format besides Delver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Gratz !

Hibernation n°4 and only 10 lords are something I will consider testing.

How have you liked the 1-of Winged ?

How was your mana base ? Did you get stuck with uncastable Slivers/Spells in hand ?

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Hibernation won me the games vs D&T, Lands and Miracles. I think we need the 4 copies but maybe 3 are correct with Brainstorm.

Evasion was much needed and Winged was sometimes good when Vial was on 2 or discarded to Fow. Shadow Sliver could be a more all-in version but you can't block Delver or Marit. To be tested by Volt :smile:

I think the manabase when including Underground Sea is good. The Hives are useful when you get a Hand with Crystalline + Hibernation + Muscle.
I got stuck once with Syphon and Hibernation when I only saw fetches and had no Sea. As for the spells, the blue count under 20 for Fow can be problematic and sometimes you will have to bounce a Hibernation from the board to discard it to Fow.

4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

EDIT: it's almost Patraw's manabase. The guy has been apparently performing with slivers since 2007 so he must know what he's doing.

For the SB the proposition from Cairo seems reasonnable:
3 Rest in Peace
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist (or Mindbreak Trap)
2 Containment Priest
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyexian Revoker
1 Gaddock Teeg

Maybe Board:
Darkheart Sliver
Surgical Extraction
Vapor Snag
Thalia
Hard or soft counters

Maybe we just have to accept to loose to Back to Basics or Blood Moon but it's risky since Merfolk, Goblins, UWR Miracles, Sneak-Show, Painter etc. can run it.

So I would maybe MB keep only 2 Syphon for 1 Echoing Truth. But we would go weaker to Burn. Still to be tested.

I will continue testing on Cockatrice and take it to the weekly if I can.

Oh, yeah, definitely add an Underground Sea.

I like that sideboard, too, btw. I would stick with Ethersworn Canonist over Mindbreak Trap, I think. It's more versatile.