[DTB] Vial Goblins

edit: piledriver is a good goblin, but i think it's fair to say that he is at least the weakest goblin in the deck. please let me know if anyone plays in tournaments and actually deals combat damage to players with huge piledrivers because i'd love to come play in your easy-mode meta. whoever said that goblins is about slowly building up is correct. that's why i advocate earwig squad.

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Originally Posted by Damiles

THis is just a reccomendantion but has anyone made a five color goblin deck?
I was thinking confidant goyf swords and wishes any thoughts?
If the core just seems to be lackey piledriver +goblins is there enough space to change it?

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The goblin deck's only advantage over any other deck is the tribal synergy. All goblins suck when compared to the creatures in thresh, angel stompy, or even sui-black. The only things good about goblins are cards like matron, ringleader, and incinerator, which all assume that all the other spells in your deck are goblins.

If you start taking out goblins, you might as well just take them all out and play a thresh deck. In practice, even when The only non-goblins I had were vial and stp/snuff out, it still really hurt when I threw them all away to a ringleader or when I couldn't find anything with a matron.

Now with warren weirding and a potential bomb in earwig squad, goblins might actually be up to par with thresh while maintaining the tribal engine. For once we actually have strong cards that count as goblins. Anyway, here's the deck that I played with last night in a weekly to finish 2-2 after a topdeck stalemate in game 3 of round 4:

4 aether vial

4 warren weirding
2 gempalm incinerator

4 goblin lackey
4 goblin matron
4 goblin warchief
3 frogtosser banneret
4 goblin ringleader

4 siege-gang commander
4 earwig squad
1 wort, boggart auntie

(22 land)
5 mountain
1 swamp
2 taiga
2 badlands
4 wasteland
4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire

(sideboard)
4 leyline of the void
4 krosan grip
4 engineered explosives
3 mogg fanatic

notes:
The mogg fanatics should be replaced, probably by Tin Street Hooligans.
I might change the land base to accomodate 3 or more badlands. Having black sources early and reliably was an issue in some games. I think 1 swamp is definately enough for basics though.
Wort is better than kiki-jiki, especially sans piledriver. Fear and a 3/3 body are always relevant stats. The ability wins games if it goes off, where kiki is potentially useless as the only goblin in play.
Earwig is a noted improvement over piledriver. First, either way, your fattie is going to die and trade with one of the opponent's creatures. At least with the squad, you've already done the damage as soon as it hits play. The prowl is only 1 more mana than it costs to play a driver, and the ability is very significant. Aside from that, it's a 5/3 always, which is a lot better than x/2. Also, it's not a red creature.
The only real problem that I'm having with this deck is not having enough black sources, so I think I'll just trade some mountians for badlands and get rid of those fanatics
On frogtosser bannerets, they're definately decent. However, they almost seems to cause more mana problems than they solve by usually requiring a black source on turn 2. I would like to experiment with removing the tossers and adding a utility package that includes some of these:
1 more wort
1 more incinerator
1 sharpshooter
1 tin street/tinkerer
1 goblin wizard (probably wont happen but I still really want to make this guy work)
other splashy stuff

So I have tuned my deck some more and the list looks as follows:

Summons(32):
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4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin King

Artifacts(4):
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4 Aether Vial

Lands(22):
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16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Slots left(2):
---------------
???

As you can see I have 2 slots left that i'm having troubles with. I know many of you think 3 SGC's is a good thing but I think I will keep them at 2 for now tho I might change it later on.

I have been looking alot on all the 2cc goblins that are available and these are the ones i've found that could make a fine addition:

Mogg Flunkies - Bigger than all your other goblins but I am not sure if he is big enough. Besides he is crap alone (but with only 2 copies this should be rare).

Tin Street Hooligan - Very nice utility and a 2/1 for 2 mana isn't all that bad. What I don't like is that he forces me to splash for green. The thing is splashing for another color makes you alot more vurnerable if you ask me. With Taigas in the deck Wasteland suddenly turns into a threat and with fetches Stifle could be real nasty not to mention Blood Moon (it doesn't stop you but it turns Hooligan into a 2/1 for 2 mana with no bonus). I am not sure if Hooligan is good enough to justify this.

Mogg War Marshal - Possibly the one i'm leaning towards the most too atm. As a 2-of I really don't think he can be wrong. He makes your Gempalms, Piledrivers and SGC's better since he is 2 goblins in 1 card. Besides you can block with him (the one you would be paying echo for) should your opponent be having a big creature out (Tarmogoyf?) and still you get 2 goblins.

Sparksmith - He probably goes in the category has suicidal but with a Warchief out and say 2-3 other goblins I'd say he more or less has to be good. Perhaps he's better of as a 1-of for Matron to fetch when you really could use him but i'm mentioning him anyway. After all, he is in the 2cc range :)

Stingscourger - I think he got mentioned before and I believe he could be handy sometimes. Especially along with Warchief to bounce up that creature that's in your way and then get to attack with him the same turn. Without Warchief he will probably disappear thanks to echo and this is why i'm hesitating.

I think these are the candidates we have for the 2cc range (for red atleast) and I would like to hear which one of them you think deserves my 2 spots the most ;)

You really wanna win the Aggro Control matchup. That means you gotta have some sort of solution to Goyf.
I like the War Marshall thing, cause it helps in chump blocking opposing creatures while bulding an army that can kill opposing goyfs with Incinerator. I'd play a Goblin Goon too, as it's the bigger as the biggest creature in the format (Goyf obv) and it can attack easily through opposing Mongeese. It survives Pyroclasm and Burn too. It's a non-piledriver significant clock.

If I had to play a monored version I'd play your list -1 King +2 War Marshall +1 Goon. Or i'd use those slots as meta-slots for (magus of the) Blood Moon, Jitte, the evoke guy that deals 6 damage to a critter, etc.

EDIT: I forgot Tinkerer. It's a valid option too.
EDIT#2: Goon helps against Propaganda effects too.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

You really wanna win the Aggro Control matchup. That means you gotta have some sort of solution to Goyf.
I like the War Marshall thing, cause it helps in chump blocking opposing creatures while bulding an army that can kill opposing goyfs with Incinerator. I'd play a Goblin Goon too, as it's the bigger as the biggest creature in the format (Goyf obv) and it can attack easily through opposing Mongeese. It survives Pyroclasm and Burn too. It's a non-piledriver significant clock.

If I had to play a monored version I'd play your list -1 King +2 War Marshall +1 Goon. Or i'd use those slots as meta-slots for (magus of the) Blood Moon, Jitte, the evoke guy that deals 6 damage to a critter, etc.

EDIT: I forgot Tinkerer. It's a valid option too.
EDIT#2: Goon helps against Propaganda effects too.

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In Mono Red, I'd not play Marshal or the Evoker. Jitte is pretty decent. Blood Moon is hot and is a potential back breaker to Landstill and 43land.dec. King should be there if you run Moon.

Sparksmith as removal is partly suicidal, but blocking and taking 4-5 damage from him is better than eating a Goyf's attack every turn or chumping til ya lose.

There are no real solutions to Pyroclasm or E.Plague in Mono Red unless you pack in 4 Kings :P Splashing green and/or black would be wise. It helps deal with many of Mono Red's issues.

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Originally Posted by chokin

There are no real solutions to Pyroclasm or E.Plague in Mono Red unless you pack in 4 Kings :P

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Not true, there are artifact solutions: Gauntlet of Might and Door of Destinies. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Not true, there are artifact solutions: Gauntlet of Might and Door of Destinies. :tongue:

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There's the old Patron of the Akki, which definitely isn't expected and can end games in a hurry (at 7/5, it clocks above most Tarmos and it makes your now-1/1 Goblins into 3/1+ beaters). I'd personally still play few of those á la Sonne; it may be old tech, but it works. Also, Kings have the issue that they don't kill really any faster than normal when counteracting PLague, and they often tend to make any Smothers/Bolts/such the opponent might have into Plague Winds. Further, two Plagues = GG Kings.

I never really saw the use in using a Goblin to counter a card that hoses Goblins. It just hasn't really worked out in games I've watched; if there's a Plague in play, I'd damn much rather have that Pyromancer/Patron/Goon/whatever for the kill than a King to allow me to start casting 1/1s again just waiting for the second Plague to crush me.

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Originally Posted by Malchar

edit: piledriver is a good goblin, but i think it's fair to say that he is at least the weakest goblin in the deck. please let me know if anyone plays in tournaments and actually deals combat damage to players with huge piledrivers because i'd love to come play in your easy-mode meta. whoever said that goblins is about slowly building up is correct. that's why i advocate earwig squad.



The goblin deck's only advantage over any other deck is the tribal synergy. All goblins suck when compared to the creatures in thresh, angel stompy, or even sui-black. The only things good about goblins are cards like matron, ringleader, and incinerator, which all assume that all the other spells in your deck are goblins.

If you start taking out goblins, you might as well just take them all out and play a thresh deck. In practice, even when The only non-goblins I had were vial and stp/snuff out, it still really hurt when I threw them all away to a ringleader or when I couldn't find anything with a matron.

Now with warren weirding and a potential bomb in earwig squad, goblins might actually be up to par with thresh while maintaining the tribal engine. For once we actually have strong cards that count as goblins. Anyway, here's the deck that I played with last night in a weekly to finish 2-2 after a topdeck stalemate in game 3 of round 4:

4 aether vial

4 warren weirding
2 gempalm incinerator

4 goblin lackey
4 goblin matron
4 goblin warchief
3 frogtosser banneret
4 goblin ringleader

4 siege-gang commander
4 earwig squad
1 wort, boggart auntie

(22 land)
5 mountain
1 swamp
2 taiga
2 badlands
4 wasteland
4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire

(sideboard)
4 leyline of the void
4 krosan grip
4 engineered explosives
3 mogg fanatic

notes:
The mogg fanatics should be replaced, probably by Tin Street Hooligans.
I might change the land base to accomodate 3 or more badlands. Having black sources early and reliably was an issue in some games. I think 1 swamp is definately enough for basics though.
Wort is better than kiki-jiki, especially sans piledriver. Fear and a 3/3 body are always relevant stats. The ability wins games if it goes off, where kiki is potentially useless as the only goblin in play.
Earwig is a noted improvement over piledriver. First, either way, your fattie is going to die and trade with one of the opponent's creatures. At least with the squad, you've already done the damage as soon as it hits play. The prowl is only 1 more mana than it costs to play a driver, and the ability is very significant. Aside from that, it's a 5/3 always, which is a lot better than x/2. Also, it's not a red creature.
The only real problem that I'm having with this deck is not having enough black sources, so I think I'll just trade some mountians for badlands and get rid of those fanatics
On frogtosser bannerets, they're definately decent. However, they almost seems to cause more mana problems than they solve by usually requiring a black source on turn 2. I would like to experiment with removing the tossers and adding a utility package that includes some of these:
1 more wort
1 more incinerator
1 sharpshooter
1 tin street/tinkerer
1 goblin wizard (probably wont happen but I still really want to make this guy work)
other splashy stuff

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Are you insane? Did you read any of the past page before playing Frogtosser MD:

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Originally Posted by Mental

Anyone who has played Goblins for more than 15 minutes knows that it is not a balls to the walls, standard aggro deck. You slowly build position over time - that's why Aether Vial/Ringleader > Lackey. And that's what lets you beat decks that don't suck.

The only true agro cards that are in this deck are Goblin Lackey, Warchief and Goblin Piledriver, and I would argue that they're less essential to the deck than Vial, Ringleader, and Matron. We don't need to up the count of cards that end the game fast but serve no other purpose - they especially don't do crap when you're losing. Even if I had 20 open slots in Goblins, I wouldn't play Frogtosser.

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So, MAYBE I'll believe your decision is correct if you come up with one logical reason that Frogtosser is better than Mogg Fanatic. All you say about the Frogtossers is "they're definitely decent." Thanks. And why?

Piledriver is always stronger than Earwig. Goblins is a deck that runs on Card Advantage, generated by Ringleader/Matron/SGC/Wort. It can power at advantage faster than other decks through Warchief, which doubles as a wincon. However, the only ways that it CAPITALIZES on this card advantage are through Piledriver/SGC. So don't cut them.

Hi guys,
I would like to sum up some of the discussion going on:


Manabase:
-The right number of lands is probably either 21 or 22 whether you play Port or not.
-What is the correct number of Fetchlands? The deck-thinning effect is very small so that shouldn´t be taken into consideration (Please don´t discuss on this fact because there are plenty of places in this forum where this has been done with great effort.)! The only real purpose is mana-fixing for the cost of life! I am currently running 6 Fetchlands and feel quite happy with that.
- Everyone using Snow-covered mountains without capitalizing on them should REALLY use normal BASICS, I have witnessed someone losing because of this in a tournament due to ICEQUAKE-> LOL(but shit like this happens)!!!

My Lands:->21
4xWasteland
4xBadlands
2xTaiga
1xSwamp -> vs Moon, doesn´t weaken the manabase more then a Port or so.
4xBloodstained Mire
2xWooded Foothills
4xMountain

Non-Goblins: -> 4

4xAtherVial

Nothing to say.

Goblins (mandatory): -> 22
4xLackey
4xWarchief
4xMatrone
4xRingleader
2xSGC
2xIncinerator
2xPiledriver

This is only the minimum of each Goblin you must play in order to keep your deck good at what Goblins do best:
- Cardadvantage
- Tutoring
- Speed
- Swarm
- Quick Kill if needed
- Uncounterable, Cantrip Creature removal

Open Goblin Slots: -> 13
- We want to make sure Lackey connects very frequently -> Cards that help: Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Sledder, Warren Weirding, Incinerator. All of them have their pros and cons:
Mogg Fanatic kills almost every first turn critter except for mongoose (this is one thing Sledder is better at even if lackey wouldn´t connect the same turn), Fanatic is very good vs. combo (Wild Cantor, Ichorid, BfB, Normads en-kor, Cephalid Illusionist,…Sledder as well to a lesser degree. Jitte gets handelt by Fanatic once and by Sledder all day long. Sledder in addition gives your opponent a headache with combatmath and keeps some Goblins alive if you face Pyroclasm and stuff like that. Weirding is a house vs big critters like single tombstalkers and goyfs. Whereas gempalm shines when you face stuff like factory backed up with counters. To sum this aspect up: They all serve the same primary role of letting the lackey connect, to a lesser degree the removal role and every single one shines in very specific situations.

My build:
3x Mogg Fanatic
1x Goblin Sledder
1xIncinerator (Number 3 in total)
2xWarren Weirding

This gives me a very nice toolbox and 9 ways to help out connect lackey. Because of this I want to have an increased chance of having a SGC in my hand.

1xSGC (Number 3 in Total)

I think 4 Piledrivers is too many! 3 is the way to go for me. Piledriver can kill quick but as a stand alone critter he sucks and he gets blocked to easily. He is a midgame Goblin you want to Tutor for or draw into after the first few turns -> 3!!!

1xPiledriver (Number 3 in total)

This leaves us open for basically 4 Slots to play around with. This might be preference, metarelevant or whatever. I will post my choices and give a short explanation to it.

1xWort

She survives Plague, Pyroclasm…. due to her body and has fear which is nice for the last few dmg especially if u play Sledder as a one of. She gets handled so often because she is a big threat that can turn the favour. Again Sledder helps getting a Matrone, Ringleader or so into your grave EOT for a nice comeback (Just another sometimes useful synegie) the next turn.

1x Goblin Tinkerer

Is a MD solution for: Jitte, Needle, Explosives, Keg, CotV, Ather Vial, Dreadnought, helps vs SDT, Factory, Raffinity, Mox, Petal, LED, Trinisphere, Crucible, Smokestack, Shackles, Disk……..unfired Belcher…..Ensnaring Bridge

I play the Hooligan in my SB

Tinkerer is RED, does its job multiple time even vs big targets thanks to Sledder and works in a late-game-situation with Warchief on board and he can be vialed in. Hooligans is good too but is more SB material rather then a maindeck toolcard.

The last 2 spots could be:

Sharpshooter
Mad Auntie
Earwig Squad
Pyromancer
King -> if u face a lot of mountains
Boggart Mob -> Vialed in he safes some critters, survises lots of stuff, and reuses CiP-Stuff due to Sledder
Skirk Prospector-> nice with Shenanigans, Shooter, SGC

Currently I test the Squad for control decks like MUC or Standstill with very few wincons and the Pyromancer for a surprise kill.


SB:
4xLeyline -> Ichorid, Iggy, Breakfast, Reanimator, Loam, GeddonStaxx….
4xCotV/Cabal Therapy-> Combo
3xKrosan Grip -> …..
1x Tin-Street Hooligan
1x Mad Auntie-> Don´t really know…
1x Boggard Shenanigans -> good vs. Plague since Plague get played by suicide or slower controldecks which should have lost some live before they can get a board position.
1x Shooter -> Shooter + Shenanigans + Sledder (Prospector would be even better) can sometimes surprise kill without combat dmg for at least 12 dmg


What do you guys think

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Originally Posted by ChillerKiller0815

-The right number of lands is probably either 21 or 22 whether you play Port or not.
-What is the correct number of Fetchlands? The deck-thinning effect is very small so that shouldn´t be taken into consideration (Please don´t discuss on this fact because there are plenty of places in this forum where this has been done with great effort.)! The only real purpose is mana-fixing for the cost of life! I am currently running 6 Fetchlands and feel quite happy with that.
- Everyone using Snow-covered mountains without capitalizing on them should REALLY use normal BASICS, I have witnessed someone losing because of this in a tournament due to ICEQUAKE-> LOL(but shit like this happens)!!!

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I think 22 is the bare minimum number of lands that I'd feel comfortable running in this deck. In fact, normally I run 23. I go back and forth between 6 and 8 fetches. In game one, you don't want to fetch after Ringleading (in order to minimize your chances of drawing into more land), so you only want your fetchlands early. But in games 2 and 3, you sometimes will want to fetch after Ringleading (in order to get back hate that's now at the bottom of your library). Also, the color fixing becomes more important post board in order to be able to cast Grip.

As for the rest of the deck, it looks decent. Personally, I wouldn't go below 4 Fanatic, 3 SGC, and 3 Weirding, but I guess that's up to you.

i run 22 lands for 5 fetchs, it works very well

for the mandatory, i agree for all but not for piledriver: i think you need the 4 main deck!
then i play 4 fanatic, 3 weirding, 1 tinkerer and for the 2 free slots i think run stingscourger and maybe wort/3rd gempalm

i don't understand why you want to play sledder??? it's very bad!!

I'm just adding a quick comment on the mana base. 22+/-1 is the right number depending on what else is in your deck. If you use a lot of SGC's, I would tend to increase the land count because you can try to cast them or take better advantage of the activated ability. If anyone is going to use frogtossers, then I would tend to decrease the mana count obviously.

On fetchlands, I do think that the lifeloss is significant. After doing some research, I don't think that the deck thinning matters that much. At least with tools like Kiki/Wort and matron+ringleader, the deck shouldn't have to rely on topdecking threats. In fact, no competitive deck should have to rely on that.

As for the deck's vulnerability to wasteland, I don't think that it is that big of a deal. Running 1x swamp and/or forest makes sense, but I would still suggest running plenty of nonbasics. If you go 3-color, the nonbasics are more important to include or you risk being mana screwed, and you don't have the time to sit around waiting on colors.

Fundamentally, I think that this deck has one of the best advantages in a wasteland vs. wasteland matchup. Having aether vial is the key to the deck. This is another reason why I am skeptical about mutavault (and that they are about 20$ each). I mean, this deck was designed to take advantage of wasteland in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malchar

I'm just adding a quick comment on the mana base. 22+/-1 is the right number depending on what else is in your deck. If you use a lot of SGC's, I would tend to increase the land count because you can try to cast them or take better advantage of the activated ability. If anyone is going to use frogtossers, then I would tend to decrease the mana count obviously.

On fetchlands, I do think that the lifeloss is significant. After doing some research, I don't think that the deck thinning matters that much. At least with tools like Kiki/Wort and matron+ringleader, the deck shouldn't have to rely on topdecking threats. In fact, no competitive deck should have to rely on that.

As for the deck's vulnerability to wasteland, I don't think that it is that big of a deal. Running 1x swamp and/or forest makes sense, but I would still suggest running plenty of nonbasics. If you go 3-color, the nonbasics are more important to include or you risk being mana screwed, and you don't have the time to sit around waiting on colors.

Fundamentally, I think that this deck has one of the best advantages in a wasteland vs. wasteland matchup. Having aether vial is the key to the deck. This is another reason why I am skeptical about mutavault (and that they are about 20$ each). I mean, this deck was designed to take advantage of wasteland in the first place.

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Personally, if I have an active vial/warcheif and someone wastes my land, I'm happy. It's going to hurt them more than me in most situations. 1x Swamp makes sense, and 1x Forest is probably unnecessary. Still, I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten screwed by that one swamp. I just think the number is less than the times I've been screwed without it.

Tinkerer is awful. Jitte, the artifact that scares you the most, kills it before it can tap, making it only really good against Stax, which isn't a very played deck. Besides, Stax will probably just Oring/Barb Ring it anyways, and it will only activate once before dying. Play Hooligan.

22 is the base number for builds running Wasteland and 3 colors. 23 land is usually for if you run Ports since you're gonna be needing to hit colored mana. I think that 2 Ports is good, but I've also run 3 and even 4 depending on the meta. 21 is for builds lacking Port or have less colors.

SGC is also a factor in this, as are higher costing goblins. 6 fetch is a nice number, I've run 5-8 though. 6-7 is the sweet spot in 23 land builds.

I run 2 Wort and 2 Drivers, only because Wort is so awesome and gets removed too much. She really does win games. Being able to have more than one shot out of a ground lock is key.

EDIT: @ Mental - If Warchief is in play, Tinkerer can activate :P. I occasionally run this guy when I'm really concerned with decks like Dragon Stompy where Blood Moon or Magus can prevent me from getting green mana.

I like the single Swamp a lot. I don't like the single Forest. The number of times I've been screwed by that swamp is so marginal compared to times when it kept black mana on the table to fight off Tarmogoyf.

@ Puddn:
I know that Sledder is NOT the god.goblin, but as a one off tool-target he serves some very versitile roles that come in handy from time to time:

1. He does help keeping the lackey alive turn 2
2. he handles Jitte all day long which is often a big deal game 2 and 3
3. he keeps some of your goblins alive after stuff like pyroclasm, contagion....also relevant game 2 and 3
4. he does some combat tricks like: giving the unblocked goblin (even if it is a matrone) leathal power on the final attack
5. has great synergie with the sharpshooter and shenanigans if u have them in your board.
6. Makes your unblockable wort even scarier and a real finisher
7.Sacs Goblin to keep the graveyard clean from bridges for example -> anti-combo
8. Does some nice EOT-tricks in combination with Wort-> sac ringleader ,matrone-> get back in upkeep -> replay

I think the points are all more or less relevant so taking one slot from the fanatic isn´t such a big deal because he fulfills the same role as the fanatic (admitted:most of them not quite as good but some a lot better) but adds a lot of synergie and versitality in many game situations.

So please don´t tell me don´t play him because.....he is BAD. Write some thoughts to it at least. I for myself don´t miss fanatic #4 but often appreciate the tool-goblin named Sledder. Try it!!!

Did you try only sledder or prospector too?
Prospector does many of the tricks you listed (minus the combat ones) and can add some speed at the deck, if needed.

What do people's sideboard's look like post Shadowmoor?

Quote:

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@ Puddn:
I know that Sledder is NOT the god.goblin, but as a one off tool-target he serves some very versitile roles that come in handy from time to time:

1. He does help keeping the lackey alive turn 2
2. he handles Jitte all day long which is often a big deal game 2 and 3
3. he keeps some of your goblins alive after stuff like pyroclasm, contagion....also relevant game 2 and 3
4. he does some combat tricks like: giving the unblocked goblin (even if it is a matrone) leathal power on the final attack
5. has great synergie with the sharpshooter and shenanigans if u have them in your board.
6. Makes your unblockable wort even scarier and a real finisher
7.Sacs Goblin to keep the graveyard clean from bridges for example -> anti-combo
8. Does some nice EOT-tricks in combination with Wort-> sac ringleader ,matrone-> get back in upkeep -> replay

I think the points are all more or less relevant so taking one slot from the fanatic isn´t such a big deal because he fulfills the same role as the fanatic (admitted:most of them not quite as good but some a lot better) but adds a lot of synergie and versitality in many game situations.

So please don´t tell me don´t play him because.....he is BAD. Write some thoughts to it at least. I for myself don´t miss fanatic #4 but often appreciate the tool-goblin named Sledder. Try it!!!

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4th fanatic >>> sledder and skirk>>> sledder

Try it!!!!

GOBLIN


SLEDDER


SUCKS.


Now back to your regularly scheduled Goblins thread.

Swinging with an unblockable wort and sacrificing all of your goblins for leathal only to see a stp wins games... for the opponent.

I agree that hooligan is better than tinkerer overall. I'm thinking of replacing my 3x frogtossers with 1x sharpshooter, 1x hooligan, 1x wort. The wort might become something else. 3 more hooligans will appear in the SB instead of mogg fanatic, which was really just me being lazy and not changing that sooner. I, along with a few others here, have finally reached the point where fanatic is no longer fantastic, but it all depends on the meta... I guess. Essentially replacing fanatics with incinerators/weirdings seems to be fine in most situations anyway.

The 1x swamp is questionable in any deck that's not using frogtossers. With them gone, more badlands look fine. In fact, I'm not really sure why I used swamp in the first place, considering I argue against fearing wasteland.

Looks like it's time for more testing, less theory, at least for me.

Has anyone been checking out the new deck with Swans of Bryn Argoll and Chain of Plasma? If this catches on as a minicombo in thresh, then pyroclasm is going to be back with a vengeance. The only substantial problem is that the opponent theoretically buys enough time with pyroclasm before they go off with counter backup. Weirding seems good. Incinerator seems bad, especially with pyroclasm. For once, there's a combo deck that doesn't lose to leyline of the void.

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Originally Posted by chokin

22 is the base number for builds running Wasteland and 3 colors. 23 land is usually for if you run Ports since you're gonna be needing to hit colored mana. I think that 2 Ports is good, but I've also run 3 and even 4 depending on the meta. 21 is for builds lacking Port or have less colors.

SGC is also a factor in this, as are higher costing goblins. 6 fetch is a nice number, I've run 5-8 though. 6-7 is the sweet spot in 23 land builds.

I run 2 Wort and 2 Drivers, only because Wort is so awesome and gets removed too much. She really does win games. Being able to have more than one shot out of a ground lock is key.

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Really? I've been steadily cutting Worts - I'm at one right now. The card always dies, and it doesn't win games on the spot, like Piledriver can. I think the appropriate build for Goblins should include:

18-21 Engine Cards (4 Ringleader, 4 AEther Vial, 4 Lackey, 2-3 SGC, 0-2 Wort, 4 Matron)
8 Ways to Capitalize on the advantage generated by the engine (4 Warchief, 4 Piledriver)
8-12 Utility (4 Fanatic, 3-4 Weirdings, 1-2 Gempalm Incinerator, 0-2 Tin Street Hooligan)

That seems to be the appropriate base for building this deck. With only 2 Piledrivers, it's very hard to get anything out of the advantage generated by your very powerful engine.

Basic Swamp is especially useful if you're SBing in Blood Moon.