[Deck] Belcher

i got second last monday with belcher at my locals.

my side was
4 piroblast
4 autums veil
1 tendrills
1 diminishing return
1 empty the warrens
1 infernal tutor
1 hull breach
1 shatering spree
1 past in flames

my main deck is pretty standard

1 [R] Taiga
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [SHM] Pyretic Ritual
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame

I dont like manamrpfosis, because sometimes u need one mana more to go of and u have to go off and u use mana on manamorfosis and then u draw busines and lose.

Then usualy for brining in my 8 sb cards i side out: 4 sething song and 4 pyretic ritual

a good control player will counter ur song and u will lose. so i prefer to combo sure.

Usually with manamorphose you draw mana with it, as business spells in this deck that are prohibitive in cost are wish and charbelcher. If you draw empty with morphose, and can't get to 4 mana to cast it, you kept a really bad hand and are asking to be punished for it.

Also, why do I see past in flames in belcher wishboards now? The only case where I can see PiF being good is if you go wish, crack LED for RRR, discarding empty the warrens and/or an extra burning wish, flashback all these rituals, then go EtW/burning wish for maybe tendrils for a very large number since wish exiles itself upon resolution. Just seems like a wasted sideboard slot that would be better served as something else.

On landless belcher. The effect of not playing land is that you have less IMS's so in theory you'll fizzle more before you even begin the spell chain if your probe's/wraith's hit nothing to start the chain off with chrome/petal/esg/ssg because you only have 16 IMS's then. And you're also really reliant on hitting business too since you lack wish. And postboard what exactly do you plan to do against any sort of hate? Hope to cast hull breach and co. off of IMS's? That seems pretty weak. Then again belcher has always been weak to hate.

usualy i dont keep with belcher a hand with no busines spell didnt mater if i have draw spells or not. if u dont mullingan for ur winn options u usualy lose. u can keep hand that needs mana but not a hand that needs to draw into bw belcher or etw.

@Togores

How has Autumn's Veil been working out for you? Seems like the perfect answer to Flusterstorm as you can play it as a response to Flusterstorm.

@hazard

No-Wish, No-land Belcher seems weak. If you have some data on the deck, thats the best way to get people to play your list to get some confirmation on how the deck plays. I would say the best option would be to play with Burning Wish rather than Empty the Warrens or else you can't really able to utilize LED except with Belcher. At least a Burning Wish + LED nets you 1 mana and then you can pull EtW out of the board.

You might want to experiment with Recross the Paths if you are going to play a No-Land Belcher list. Once it resolves, in a no-land build, it allows you to stack the deck, leaving you with either cantrip x8, LED, BW --> ToA option, or LED + cantrip --> Meditate into LED, LED, LED, cantrip --> Belcher. The piles are relatively simple so the learning curve on Recross lists are actually not much higher than normal Belcher. Unlike, Doomsday you won't have to memorize and understand how to adapt to the situation but rather just how to reach 10 storm by stringing multiple cantrips together, or a simple Meditate or even Ideas Unbound pile.

Normally you would start this chain with a cantrip that way you can draw the top card, but you can also play pass the turn piles that way you can, say, draw a cantrip off the top that way you can break a LED into Meditate to draw 4 cards off the top to easily finish. You might have to wait a total of 2 turns to draw a LED and a cantrip total to start, but thats not asking for very much when your deck is completely stacked and the deck can get to 2G with almost every hand.

Further, its a sorcery so you can play one in the board for a grand total of...

Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Recross the Paths

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

@Togores

How has Autumn's Veil been working out for you? Seems like the perfect answer to Flusterstorm as you can play it as a response to Flusterstorm.

@hazard

No-Wish, No-land Belcher seems weak. If you have some data on the deck, thats the best way to get people to play your list to get some confirmation on how the deck plays. I would say the best option would be to play with Burning Wish rather than Empty the Warrens or else you can't really able to utilize LED except with Belcher. At least a Burning Wish + LED nets you 1 mana and then you can pull EtW out of the board.

You might want to experiment with Recross the Paths if you are going to play a No-Land Belcher list. Once it resolves, in a no-land build, it allows you to stack the deck, leaving you with either cantrip x8, LED, BW --> ToA option, or LED + cantrip --> Meditate into LED, LED, LED, cantrip --> Belcher. The piles are relatively simple so the learning curve on Recross lists are actually not much higher than normal Belcher. Unlike, Doomsday you won't have to memorize and understand how to adapt to the situation but rather just how to reach 10 storm by stringing multiple cantrips together, or a simple Meditate or even Ideas Unbound pile.

Normally you would start this chain with a cantrip that way you can draw the top card, but you can also play pass the turn piles that way you can, say, draw a cantrip off the top that way you can break a LED into Meditate to draw 4 cards off the top to easily finish. You might have to wait a total of 2 turns to draw a LED and a cantrip total to start, but thats not asking for very much when your deck is completely stacked and the deck can get to 2G with almost every hand.

Further, its a sorcery so you can play one in the board for a grand total of...

Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Recross the Paths

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The thing with autums veil is that u can play it and if it dont resolve u can hold on with ur hand, thats the diferencia with piroblast, u go of then reb the counter of ur oponent and if he has one more counter u lose ur hand. with veil u can play it and if it dosnt reslve u can easy think of anew plan. the only problem is that i dosnt stop mindebreak but usualy agaisnt decks paking mindebreak the 4 piroblast are enought and this deck that play mindbreak usualy are not control decks.

And with the recross plan, i think is to slow, its nice to stack ur deck but he are speaking of a turn 3 winn at soon in a normal situation.
ur pile should always be led gitaxian meditate led led led gitaxian mediatate and busines or more draw spells i think. and that makes ur deck very diferent and slower. for plaing this i usualy at my events play doomsday, which requires more skill and so but u usualuy dont make an all in and have better mana and manipulation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

@hazard

No-Wish, No-land Belcher seems weak. If you have some data on the deck, thats the best way to get people to play your list to get some confirmation on how the deck plays. I would say the best option would be to play with Burning Wish rather than Empty the Warrens or else you can't really able to utilize LED except with Belcher. At least a Burning Wish + LED nets you 1 mana and then you can pull EtW out of the board.

You might want to experiment with Recross the Paths if you are going to play a No-Land Belcher list. Once it resolves, in a no-land build, it allows you to stack the deck, leaving you with either cantrip x8, LED, BW --> ToA option, or LED + cantrip --> Meditate into LED, LED, LED, cantrip --> Belcher. The piles are relatively simple so the learning curve on Recross lists are actually not much higher than normal Belcher. Unlike, Doomsday you won't have to memorize and understand how to adapt to the situation but rather just how to reach 10 storm by stringing multiple cantrips together, or a simple Meditate or even Ideas Unbound pile.

Normally you would start this chain with a cantrip that way you can draw the top card, but you can also play pass the turn piles that way you can, say, draw a cantrip off the top that way you can break a LED into Meditate to draw 4 cards off the top to easily finish. You might have to wait a total of 2 turns to draw a LED and a cantrip total to start, but thats not asking for very much when your deck is completely stacked and the deck can get to 2G with almost every hand.

Further, its a sorcery so you can play one in the board for a grand total of...

Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Recross the Paths

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I do not have have any current data to support the performance of this deck. It is, however, only five cards away from the deck I piloted here:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=659

The only differences being:

-1 Taiga
-4 Land Grant

+4 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Street Wraith

I do realize the metagame is not what it was in mid-2010, but there are similarities.

I have never liked Wish in Belcher because it does nothing alone. It is not a win condition. It only becomes good if you have it with LED. If you're using Wish to solve problems on the board, you are probably already losing. I prefer one card combos to two card combos, but it's definitely open to personal choice. The Wish decks do well also, as evidenced by the fella placing 15th last weekend in LA:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=43205

As far as anyone playing the deck, I'm not even sure if I would again. Yes, the deck's viable. Yes, the deck wins. But no, the deck does not interact much and you're usually just playing with yourself.

As Togores stated, "if u dont mullingan for ur winn options u usualy lose. u can keep hand that needs mana but not a hand that needs to draw into bw belcher or etw. " With eight win conditions maindeck and 12 draw, you've got to smart about your mulligans.

I played with Recross the Paths a bit also and would have to agree with Togores - it is a bit slow, although there may be a different 'path' to take with that card in a different deck shell.

As far as a sideboard for Belcher...if you're not playing Burning Wish, it honestly does not matter much. Here's what I played in the past:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Price of Progress
4 Guttural Response
3 Deus of Calamity

Your main concerns are obviously the blue decks. Manamorphose becomes weaker. You could pull four of those for four Gutterballs and/or four Gitaxian Probes for four Xantid Swarm. The Deus plan has worked because people often remove their creature removal. Price of Progress can also be pretty deadly post board as no one sees it coming.

This deck wants to win ASAP and the pilot should always keep that in mind. (The one obvious exception is playing around Mindbreak Trap.)

In fairness BW is a win condition with EtW side (which is also the card you want to wish for close to 100% of the time). Also, whilst Recross might have some other issues (counterability etc) it's never slower and oftentimes faster than EtW.

Yeah with recross the paths you need a total of 6 mana before you cast it but then you stack the deck like vacrix said with 8 manamorphose/probe's, an LED, then wish for tendrils. This requires that you often have to pass the turn though unless you have 2 cantrips in hand or that you have wish/LED in hand. Sure if you pass the turn you generally win on turn 3 unless you have a cantrip/LED in hand then it's possible to win turn 2 but this deck rarely wins turn 1-2 anyways, often this deck goes make lots of goblins, swing on turn 2 for not lethal, and turn 3 swing for the win. The recross plan is better in this respect in that it's not cold to pernicious deed, maelstrom pulse, echoing truth, engineered explosives, elephant grass, the tabernacle at pendrell vale but it is weaker to hand disruption such as hymn to tourach and thoughtseize.

I've always like wish in belcher just as EtW 4-7. And it can randomly get chain lightning or something to answer problems sometimes but often it's just going for EtW. And don't tell me it's hard to go wish into EtW on the same turn, it's not that hard it just requires 6 mana total. And last I heard the namesake card of this deck belcher costs 7 mana total to win then and there.

I did some goldfishing with the landless list and I don't see how it's better than traditional belcher. If you don't have the win con in hand it doesn't matter if you have 4 cantrips you still won't find it at least I didn't find it.

Recross the paths is super interesting to me I've just never attempted to make a belcher list built around it as an additional win con. The neat thing is that it can be wished for though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

In fairness BW is a win condition with EtW side (which is also the card you want to wish for close to 100% of the time).

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He's saying that Burning Wish isn't a win condition because it's a two card combo, given that you need Lion's Eye Diamond to make it actually win the game--therefore, Burning Wish + Lion's Eye Diamond is a win condition, while Burning Wish alone is not.

However, I disagree with this statement, because I don't agree with the concept that you need Lion's Eye Diamond to turn it on. Either way, when you play this deck *every* win is actually a three+ card combo. It's going to take damn near your opening hand every time you go off anyway, so I'd be perfectly fine with playing Burning Wish, even though it's usually going to be six mana to make it do what you want it to. At the least, I'd say I'm happier with them than playing cards like Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe, which make the deck even more of a crapshoot than it already is by making your mulligans (arguably the most difficult decision you usually make when playing this deck) even harder to gauge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Namida

He's saying that Burning Wish isn't a win condition because it's a two card combo, given that you need Lion's Eye Diamond to make it actually win the game--therefore, Burning Wish + Lion's Eye Diamond is a win condition, while Burning Wish alone is not.

However, I disagree with this statement, because I don't agree with the concept that you need Lion's Eye Diamond to turn it on. Either way, when you play this deck *every* win is actually a three+ card combo. It's going to take damn near your opening hand every time you go off anyway, so I'd be perfectly fine with playing Burning Wish, even though it's usually going to be six mana to make it do what you want it to. At the least, I'd say I'm happier with them than playing cards like Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe, which make the deck even more of a crapshoot than it already is by making your mulligans (arguably the most difficult decision you usually make when playing this deck) even harder to gauge.

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You are correct on how I am defining the term 'win condition'. By my definition, it is a card that can win the game. Technically, the eight Spirit Guides are win conditions (secondary) also because they can beat down for the win, but we all know that ain't gonna happen. The best (primary) in the deck is its namesake, Goblin Charbelcher. That card can win the game when it is activated. It doesn't win when cast. I'd say the deck can very rarely cast and activate Belcher. I usually don't try to, preferring to use my resources in the most efficient manner to get it out and have the best odds of having the activation mana the next turn.

The second best win condition is Empty the Warrens which usually wins the game two turns later. Burning Wish...cannot win the game. Yes, it can fetch cards that can win the game, such as a fourth Empty in the board, but it does nothing by itself. - - - That's probably way more of a definition of 'win condition' than could ever be needed.

Burning Wish - yes, it can be used without LED on the table, although with much more difficulty. LED without Burning Wish really only has two uses: activating Belcher and building storm for Empty.

You're exactly right about the crap shoot. Folks just have two options for their crapshoot:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

or

4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Burning Wish

So you've got:

(8) maindeck win and (12) maindeck draw or
(7) maindeck win and (8) maindeck draw and (4) maindeck conditional wish

Besides that, I have to say that not having to reveal your entire plan right at the start is a pretty huge benefit of not running Land Grant.

so why doesnt pact of negation see any play in belcher instead of pyro blast or autumns veil/xantid swarm

also xantid swarm seems like a weird choice over autumns veil with al the swords to plowshears/lightningbolt/dismembers and snapcasters flying around nowadays, although after some testing i do understand the point of playing it t1 so you can keep al the mana you need for the next turn.

i'm probably gonna play the standard belcher list but with 2 gitaxian probes mainboard and 2 pacts main board and my sb will look kinda like this:

2 autumns veil
2 pyroblast
1 hull breach
1 past in flames
1 goblin war strike
2 pact of negation
1 tendrils of agony
1 infernal tutor
1 empty the warrens
1 reverent silence
2 gitaxian probe (if i'd be up against something fowless, i'd probably side this in and the 2 md pacts out)

heck, 4 maindeck pacts might even be a good idea, since were so scared of fow, plus you can pitch it to chrome mox for extra mana if really needed, and it could even be use to reduce the fear of pyroclasm when they play it on the last possible moment or if we have an active LED on the field and something for extra mana wich isnt a weird scenario at all

just thinking out loud here though

the problem with the pact is that u can only use it then ur going to winn with belcher not with empty the warrens and usualy u winn near double the time with EtW than belcher and if they counter ur belcher and then let resolve ur pact and recounter ur blecher u lose.

i dont think is a good option plaing 4 bw 3 EtW and 4 belecher

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Togores

the problem with the pact is that u can only use it then ur going to winn with belcher not with empty the warrens and usualy u winn near double the time with EtW than belcher and if they counter ur belcher and then let resolve ur pact and recounter ur blecher u lose.

i dont think is a good option plaing 4 bw 3 EtW and 4 belecher

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hmmm makes sense, i'll still be testing it though but yeah,

and the xantid swarm matter? in my meta at least, he's far too fragile

I have played literally every version of this deck: Spoils Belcher, 1 land, 2 land w Bayou ... and slowly I found out it doesn't matter. Play the list that best suits your metagame. Belcher is and forever will be an all-in combo deck. Thats just how it is, I started playing it when Goblins became super popular ... that was probably 3-5 years ago and I dominated. Currently, I don't even play it, but, since thor said he was playing Helldozer.dec next week I am going to be playing this and hopefully my other friend will also.

Belcher will always be viable against an aggro-based metagame, simply because the deck is better. You dont care what your opponent does, as long as he doesn't have Force or Trap ... ur just gonna win. Its that good. But regarding the current conversation, I actually prefer playing: 4x Belcher, 4x EtW and 4x Serum Powder. I used to love Burning Wish in the deck and about 10 weeks ago I would not play a deck in legacy without it ... but times change.

I am not going to make a case for Serum Powder because to most it isn't relevant, same with Recross the Paths. You play what works. That terrible list from gencon (I think) with 0 BW looks awful at first glance ... but it is actually really damn good. For a short while I ran Belcher with Blood Moon main and it was ridiculously good ... I even won a game after I hardcasted a Spirit Guide and got there. Point is, play what works .... to me, BW is not nearly as good as it used to be, same with this deck. Belcher is and forever will be that all-in deck ... but go big or go home. Personally I don't like BW in the deck anymore, but thats me. Play what wins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hazard

As far as a sideboard for Belcher...if you're not playing Burning Wish, it honestly does not matter much. Here's what I played in the past:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Price of Progress
4 Guttural Response
3 Deus of Calamity

Your main concerns are obviously the blue decks. Manamorphose becomes weaker. You could pull four of those for four Gutterballs and/or four Gitaxian Probes for four Xantid Swarm. The Deus plan has worked because people often remove their creature removal. Price of Progress can also be pretty deadly post board as no one sees it coming.

This deck wants to win ASAP and the pilot should always keep that in mind. (The one obvious exception is playing around Mindbreak Trap.)

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I think that sideboard plan doesn't work. You need some answer to creatures like canonist, gaddock or the new Thalia. That are heavily played in GW Zenith.
Some kind of bolt is needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xikitins

I think that sideboard plan doesn't work. You need some answer to creatures like canonist, gaddock or the new Thalia. That are heavily played in GW Zenith.
Some kind of bolt is needed.

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I hear Cave-In is a pretty good wish target.

On another note, do you guys find yourselves BW into Past in Flames very often? It seems a pretty weak, but I haven't given it any testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust

I hear Cave-In is a pretty good wish target.

On another note, do you guys find yourselves BW into Past in Flames very often? It seems a pretty weak, but I haven't given it any testing.

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Cave-in does pretty much nothing against Teeg though.

I apologize if this (or something similar) has been asked already.

I'm interested in this deck, and notice that someone got a T16 today with it at SCG Memphis. However, I have a question. My understanding of Goblin Charbelcher is that when you activate it, you flip cards from your library until you reveal a land card, at which point it does damage to your opponent equal to 1 per card flipped (2x if a mountain is flipped). The player that played this deck was able to pull a Turn 1 win. However, he played the only land he had in the deck, and then flipped over the remainder of his library.

I guess I'm at a loss as to how he would win the game considering he hasn't met the condition to stop revealing cards.

When you resolve Goblin Charbelcher's ability (or any other spell or ability), you do as much as can. Since there are no lands left in the deck, you reveal cards until you can't anymore. Then you continue on to the next part of the ability, and deal your opponent a bunch of damage. Finally, you order the revealed cards (your entire library) any way you like. (That last step will only matter if your opponent is still alive for some reason, of course.)

Also, try using a little critical thinking. Would this deck play one land and four Land Grant if it couldn't win via Goblin Charbelcher after having resolved a Land Grant?

Just for fun I went to my local tournament tonight and took Belcher ... I ended up going 4-0-1 and made top 8 out of 26ish people. Here is what I played followed by matchups:

4x Belcher
4x EtW
4x Serum Powder
4x Land Grant
4x Chrome Mox
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Tinder Wall
4x ESG
4x SSG
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
3x Manamorphose
1x Taiga

SB
3x Ancient Gridge
4x Leyline of Punishment
4x Xantid Swarm
4x Carpet of Flowers

Round 1 - Mono-R Burn (2-0)
g1: Empty for 12 turn 1.
g2: Drop Belcher turn 1, activate turn 2.

Round 2 - Merfolk (2-1)
g1: Empty for 10 turn 1.
g2: Carpet would have won me the game had he not held his Islands back due to double vial.
g3: Turn 1 Empty for 10.

Round 3 - Goblins (2-1)
g1: I mull to 6 and win on turn 4 with Belcher.
g2: I mull to 5 and keep a terrible hand. I actually could have won on turn 4-5 had he not played Null Rod.
g3: Mull to 6 and get Mindbreak Trapped turn 2. He stalls on lands and I start laying out artifacts, on turn 5-6 I drop Belcher with LED in play.

Round 4 - BUG Control (2-0)
g1: Empty for 10 turn 1.
g2: Turn 1 Swarm, turn 4 Belcher.

Round 5 - ID

Round 6 - RUw Delver - Thor - (1-2) - We agree to split regardless before we play.
g1: Empty for 12 turn 1 gets there.
g2: Mull into oblivion.
g3: Mull to 6 and EtW for 8 on turn 1 .. doesn't get there.

Overall the deck is still pretty solid. Occassionally you just into oblivion but ... I can't tell you how many mulligans I took the whole tournament (including Serum Powder). It had to be at least 15. Powder really adds a certain amount of control to the deck, in that once you know what you are facing, you can just try to find the best win-con. The SB was excellent, not sure about Grudge over SS; I was just testing it out. The deck may still be viable, especially in a heavy aggro meta. The pure speed is just ridiculous. I was Forced, Pierced, Inquisitioned (which is funny because it doesn't hit wincons), Spell Snared, and everything else you can think of. Belcher is still pretty good, given, sometimes the deck loses to itself, but the speed is just unmatched.