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Honestly, I don't feel like swans is the way to go with this deck. Swans is a 4-drop which is already pushing it for this style of play, and it also makes you want to hold onto burn to combo off rather than put pressure on other decks. We don't really have a good endgame, so stalling just seems bad. I understand counter/top gives you some longevity, but I think it just makes the deck unfocused. That's just me, tho.
That's only the problem with Chain of Plasma and that's why I'm trying to look into alternatives. As you can read in Adans report he used burn quite often to finish the opponent off and that's the way to use it. If the combo doesn't show up you play the deck as any other UGr Threshold.Quote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
Actually Swan is better than Fledgeling Dragon in several aspects:
-It is easier to cast, no :r::r:.
-Does not depend on the graveyard.
-cannot be killed by damage which is sometimes crucial even if the opponent draws cards. But it happens rarely I admit.
-Is a really good FOW pitch. Don't underestimate this. It's a real pain having Dragon sit on your hand. Doesn't happen with Swan to often. It is also the reason why more and more UGr lists play Sea Drake as 9-10th creature.
The downsides are that Swan is bad against decks featuring some kind of burn and Dragon usually kills faster but Swan is not only a finisher but a combo piece.
By far the coolest ability of Swans is to turn random "Oops, I lose" situations into "Oops, I win". Last week, while testing the build, I played a series of matches against various Loam decks (43L, The Perfect Loam, and something resembling Eternal Garden): I won them all 2-0. Game 1 I just ignored those Mazes of Ith and Ruins/EE, instead using counters and CBalance to buy time and fetching lots of lands to slow down the Waste/Port-lock, then went straight for the combo. Game 2 I'd add Blood Moon on top of that.
I think I like Swans in UGr Thresh. I just play the deck how I'd normally play and treat the Swans like the Dragons(pitchable to FoW Dragons :P).
I like Adan's list a lot. I just also like having Pyro's over Geese in the MD just because where I am, I have a lot of Weenie decks running around. It's also really cool with a Swan down because against a lot of decks, it's Wrath+Draw2.
Maybe it's one of those Danger Of Cool Things though.
Wasn't really hard to build, I just took a look at one of the Hatfield's old UGR Thresh lists (the Counterbalance Thresh with Dragons and Bolts) and remodeled it to give it a right to exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
Because, Clemens' and my UGW builds compared with the Hatfields' UGR builds always ended up in this comclusion:
UGW /w CBalance > UGR /w CBalance
because UGW has got StoPs (superior to Bolt, if it's meant to act as a removal) and Mystic Enforcer ( 4 Mana 6/6, pro Black > 4 Mana 5/5 with manaconsuming Firebreathing).
And because it has got better removal and a slightly more potent finisher, UGW can play the control-role better than UGR.
Red is, in m yopinion, meant to be a tempo-color, providing aggressiveness via reach.
But, with Swans+Chains, we finally have a reason to run UGR /w Counterbalance again:
The random "Oh, I win"-Combo. The deck still has got a solid beater and finally a higher burn-count again, which allows it to act aggressive under some circumstances.
Well... but I'm still not that happy about the 2/3 split of SDT/CBalance.
The maindeck is pretty tight and the only card that could be cut are the Predicts. So, my idea was to play the same cantrip-constellation like the Hatfields 5color Thresh (i.e 4 BS, 4 ponder, 2 Portent = 10 "Dig-3" Cantrips) to have space for the 3rd Top:
// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
2 [IA] Portent
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
Any ideas? I guess I need your advise now, because I won't listen to Clemens anymore concering this deck (he wants me to cut Geese and DAZES, WTF?!).
That's very, very close to what I'm running; the main difference is that I run the MoonThresh manabase, and a different side which includes Moons (also, 18 lands/3 Dazes). Maindeck I've been fiddling with those slots too: I tested and dismissed Pithing Needles and Spell Snares, and right now I've been trying a maindeck pair of Predators, since prison artifact or enchantments are what the combo still doesn't help against.
Ok, so I'm thinking ahead to am. champs for lack of any other tourneys in my area. I'm gonna run the same MD as before (why mess with success?), but the SB was a bit thrown together and shaky. My list is the canadian (i think...) version with only 8 guys and the singleton bounce spells. The sb I used was:
2 crypt
2 EE
4 reb
3 trygon predator
2 pyroclasm
2 grip
I'm not sure what to do with it or to keep it the same. Any suggestions?
My sideboard (for tempo-canadian thresh) is quite similar:
3 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
2 E.explosives
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Pyroclasm
3 K.grip
I play two predators main and no bouncers (expecting stax, chalice aggro, loam, counterbalance etc)
It feels quite uncomfortable to have e.explosives or crypts as a two-of
but they are rather an 'utility removal' at given match-ups
e.g
Although two cryts may not be enough to combat ichorid, it will proof rather useful when playing against things like loam decks, survival decks (yeah, wait till he gets all utility creatures in the graveyard and then cast crypt and remove that squee/genesis & anger), or mirror match (when you'll want to play it at a given time and having more than one is useless),
As for e.explosives it is a vesatile card that serves many purposes (from tokens to prison decks) so it won't dissapoint you if you are facing an unknown meta. If you are not convinced with it I suggest you play pithing needle instead (improving your landstill match-up considerably).
I abuse hydroblast due to the popularity of burn-aggro decks in my meta (obv!?) and i'm quite confortable with the 3/3 hydro/pyro split.
Mind harness has proven to me to be a good choice many times but it is excesively situational ( meaning that in the wrong meta it is crap)
if you expect painters combo you might want to add a singleton gaeas blessing but i believe we already have a favorable match-up (double plus if you play needles XD!)
I believe that the sideboard is not one of the strongest points of this deck (I don't mean it is bad though!). In 2/3 games you'll substitude mediocre cards for others that will do the job better (blasts,clasm,ee) or you bring in cards to avoid hate (grip,predator, needle)---reactive sideboard. but you won't have any sideboard card that will be 'broken' against a given match-up---active sideboard! (as it hapens in landstill or other threshold variants)
on another subject; I've been looking forward to play moonthreshold (not in the local store meta but at big tourney) and I've seen that these decks often include counterbalance main. How is this?
Can it be supported by only 2 islands? should stifles be played even though you don't play wasteland? Are there any alternatives to countertop?
What does atypical moon thresh list look like? I'm thinking of playing it at a small legacy tourney next tuesday and I've looked for a list and come up with something but I haven't found any real lists yet.
Any help is appreciated.
QFT, I was wondering the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
We should get a thread for UG/x Thresh Variants in one of the three main threads.
It is a pretty typical red thresh except it runs 2x blood moon and 2-3x Fledging Dragon maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
Then for sideboard it usually runs 4x Magus of the Moon and the other 2 blood moons.
The manabase has 2x island and 1x forest for moon effects.
There are lots of variants of red thresh. It's obv terrible in something like tempo thresh, but spell snare, no snare? Stifle, no stifle? etc.
And Would you recommend canadian thresh or moon thresh for a meta like this:
A Few Loam decks (1 Aggro Loam, 2 or 3 43 land)
Lots of thresh (UGw, UGwb, UGr, etc.)
A few lands till (mostly cunning landstill)
Like 1 solidarity or 2.
A few D-Stompy
A Few Goblins
Random Aggro/Control/AggroControl (Deadguy, rock, etc.)
There's rarely combo, but sometimes 1 or 2 TES or FT variants.
I'm thinking tempo but I really like the moon build I have right now on paper. I'm probably going to test both this weekend. The tourney is next weekend.
I'm sorry for a noob question :
"For Swan-Thresh build, I can understand that Swan + Chain = infinite draw (limited by how many cards on library). .
Also Lightning Storm can do more than lethal damage to a player if you have all entire library on your hand. .
But if I'm not wrong, I assume this combo only works when you have Swan (already in play) + Chain (getting resolve) + 5 lands (3 volcanic required), doesn't it?
Because I've tested Chain+Swan combo deck outside Threshold build and I have SSG / Lotus Petal to cast Lightning Storm without tap lands for mana. .
Just want to make sure this Threshold playing style is different with that one. ."
Thank you. .
As far as I know, you just nail swans at the end of their turn, make sure you leave a card in your deck, and go off on your turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by moOnsteak
arghh, I forget about 'instant speed'. .Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
Thank you very much. .
So let's modify the requirement : Swan (already in play) + Chain (getting resolve) + 3 mana (2 Volcanic required)
That's theoretically true, but since having Swans in play means you have four mana anyway, by far the more common procedure is: Swans, untap, Chains, draw your third Volcanic (and fifth land) somewhere along the ride, Lightning Storm for the kill.
I usually only Chain at EOT when I have a second Chain and want to play around spot removal (if they Swords in response, I Chain #2 in response and kill on the next untap).
@moOnsteak.
Please don't play SSG or Lotus Petals, they are - similar to Chrome Mox - carddisadvantage.
Just stick to what yawg07 or Nihil Credo said. Drawing the entire library at EOT also isn't that bad. Even if the bottom card is the Lightning Storm, you can just untap and Lightning Storm your opponent during your upkeep and therefore win before you would lose. The same is possible for triple/quad Lightning Bolt to your opponents head.
Sometimes even the Bolts are enough to kill and there's no need to plow through your deck for the Lightning Storm.
I built a Swan-Thresh deck and went 6-0 at the local shop tourney yesterday! 14 people I do believe ... 13 maybe?
Swiss:
2-0 Against Rbg Goblins
Game one, Tarmogoyf puts him on the defensive, bolt kills Wort, game goes easier from there.
Early on he Warren Weirdings me and I Misdirect it, turning his Lackey into two 1/1 turds.
Tarmogoyf puts him on the defensive, he gets Earwig Squad and finds 1 Pyroclasm in my deck, he laughs because
I have 2 cards in my hand, guess what they were haha. Pretty sure I end up Stifling Matron FTW
2-0 Against ITF
Wild game. I get countertop to stick before him, but I'm having trouble getting the correct numbers. I get Swans down.
I bolt Swans twice, I'm doing great, he manages Shackles through the counter wall. Takes Swans.
I get down Goyf, he gets ANOTHER shackles and takes it, too. He is at 12, 0 hand, I hit him with a Bolt (9) and Lightning Storm pitching 3 lands (0)
Don't remember game two as much, but I got what I needed to stick, countered a deed, gripped a deed, let explosives go, and Goyf was 6/7
2-1 Against Demon Stompy (kuma)
I'm pretty sure I lost game two, but I don't remember that well if it was game one or two, Graveborn and friends came over and beat face.
In the meantime Shriekmaws killed Swans and Goyf haha
Game one or two (haha) was back and forth, but he did a ton of damage to himself and Lightning Bolt sealed it up.
Game three was tempo tempo tempo on my end, kept a hand of Daze, Daze, Goose, Fetch, Goyf, Fetch, Brainstorm
Drew Dazes 3 and 4 within the first few turns, and Goyf and Goose smashed face while I Dazed everything I could.
2-0 Against TES
Game one, my opening hand was, Top, Counterbalance, FoW, Swans, Fetch, Forest, Island ... I kept.
Playing TES for so long, I knew how his plays would go at least, but I also know that turn one Top and turn two Counterbalance completely ruins their day.
It kept him down all game and Swans brought an Ancestral Recall and the win.
Game two, I get to side in my Stifles and Pyroclasms, taking out Swan combo.
My hand goes Daze, Daze, Stifle, Stifle, Fetch, Bolt, Pyroclasm ... I keep.
Turn one he Xantids, I bolt it. Turn two he Shushers, I clasm it. From then on in he loses his Gemstone mine and I find two gooses.
Top4:
2-1 Against a new-age WildfireStax (OneBigSquirrelGod)
Game one I lost. I couldn't counter the Blood Moon and Trinisphere came down, and I had lands!
But he was Wildfire-ing and Burning of Xinye-ing, and ended up killing me with 2x Rolling Earthquake (one at 8 and one at 7)
Game two I countered key spells and kept a Goyf on the table, after Rolling Earthquake killed my previous goose+goyf.
Game three, pretty much the same deal, but I had both of my basics, so moon wasn't really that bad.
Finals:
2-0 Against Rbg Goblins (same from round 1)
Insanely fun games, they lasted forever, but both ended because I was able to make Goyf eat his guys one by one.
Save bolts for Wort/Piledriver, and post-board remove 3x Swan, 3x Chain, 3x Counterbalance for 3x Pyroclasm, 2x Needle, 4x Stifle.
Verdict? I never comboed the whole time. But did I need to? No. Do I like knowing I can? Damn right!
Thresh with a combo finish, one of the most fun decks I've ever played.
Here's my list ...
// Lands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
// Creatures
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Misdirection
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chain of Plasma
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Storm
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
Well done! Congratulations! Ha, you are playing Stifle in the SB! I just exchanged the Hydroblasts for Stifles because they are more versatile and still insane against Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
No Predicts and no additional cantrips (Portents) look kinda strange to me, but it's still solid. Only the Misdirection seems to be crap, but how was it?
Misdirection was good and bad, I'm pretty sure it will be coming out, but I'm not sure for what just yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I'm not sure it really NEEDS the Portents, I mean, it's already running 4x BS, 4x Ponder, and 3x Top.
When you throw 8 fetches into the mix, it isn't that hard to find what you need.
For me to fit 2x Portent, I'd remove Misdirection and then I'd either have to drop the Daze/Goose/Land count by one and I think thats BAD.
You know one thing I noticed, though? Lightning Storm is an amazing finisher, even without the combo.
You can have 5-9 damage that they know nothing about, and you can protect it, too!
Also, yes I totally agree, Stifle over Hydro for sure. My friend John and I discussed a bit before the tourney and he brought up a few points about Stifle and I agreed, so in they went.
And also, whaddya know, my other friend John steps in with TES. haha perfect :D
Also, yes edit again, ever notice that people take a long time to decide whether or not to send Chain back at you if you use it as removal?