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Re: All B/R update speculation.
All I hear about the metagame not adapting to Show and Tell is completely bogus. The metagame has ALREADY adapted to Show and Tell - Most players are already playing either it or RUG Delver to beat it.
People didn't complain about Maverick getting 7/8 spots because Maverick really is easy to metagame for/adapt to. People just had to start running better and more creature hate (Forked Bolt in RUG Delver,) or run things faster than it (Belcher). Maverick doesn't do anything special or broken - It just toolboxes really well.
It also really surprises me how people continue to think there's only one Show and Tell deck in existence. There's four, and Maverick can't do shit against one of them (Hive Mind), can do little against another (Dream Halls is messed with slightly by Thalia, but only for a turn or two), has to have the right answer to beat the third (Sneaky Show is beatable depending on their threat), and has to do the same and hope they don't have 2-3 threats to beat the fourth (Hypergenesis).
I also haven't actually heard much real constructive criticism, in this thread or the previously mentioned "Adapting" thread, that changes much we didn't already know. For all the people who keep saying the tools are there, the tools really are pretty limited.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
But you're arguing about one deck that has a bad match-up vs. the archetype.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
But Taco, RUG was doing well before all the hype over SNT with Grisel, SNT Hivemind has done nothing since last years cry fest, and RUG isn't the only deck that beats SNT. It's not like you either play RUG, Sneak, or lose.
Maverick consistently putting 4 players into the Top 8 in many events, and taking 7 out of 8 places in one event, are real tournament results. Maverick has done more format domination than Survival Vengevine did.
People finally get tired of losing to G/W Aggro and decide to start playing Combo, and all of a sudden it's time to ban a combo enabler? SNT isn't putting up any dominating numbers right now, and RUG would still be putting the same amount of players in the Top 8 regardless (there's plenty of tournament data for the last 6 months+ to back that up).
However, you've been advocating for combo enabler bans for years now Taco, so I know it's impossible for us to come to an agreement, and that's fine. You don't like Spiral Tides and Show and Tell's, and "insert next new combo enabler here." I'm not saying I like those cards either, I just don't think they should get banhammered. I'll just leave it at that.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Then again, the blue-shell-1-card-combo-involving-extra-card-never-on-the-stack is historically an archetype that gets cropped every few years.
No loss for me either way, SnT was poorly designed to begin with and wizards has painted themselves into a corner with the 1-turn-to-find-ridiculously-narrow-answer-or-die fatties.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'm still waiting for a printing of a card that Patrick Chapin suggested long time ago. Brainstorm is a fun card, but other colors should get something that would be almost as good. StP/Lightning Bolt are nice, but green and black are left alone. Then he suggested a black card which would be something like "Target player/opponent discards as many cards as he drew this turn". Instant of course.
Would make them think twice™ before brainstorming.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
This may be a useless post because of the janky nature of the card, but I'll put it out there anyways:
Angel's Grace
It has been discussed as one of the most narrow ways to combat broken combo decks (such as Sneaky Show, TES, ANT, etc.) I bring it up because if we are ever pushed to actually need a narrow answer like Angel's Grace, it becomes really easy to put it into anything using Ad Nauseam: because it allows you to draw your entire deck in one turn, essentially GUARANTEEING a win.
I'm curious what other folks think about Angel's Grace as a way to adjust to the metagame.
Too narrow? Or does it just need something broken like Ad Nauseam so it isn't useless in your maindeck?
(Disclaimer: I don't advocate banning anything right now...Show and Tell isn't warping the metagame too much, even with Griselbrand. Just my opinion...)
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Show and Tell has been legal in Legacy for ages. You have been able to put Progenitus onto the battlefield with it for years. I remember that one didn't simply win games when the opponent had Progenitus on the field. Emrakul and Griselbrand aren't faster than Progenitus and have less built-in protection, but they come with additional effects. You can argue that they are more powerful or less powerful than Progenitus, but in any case, the difference it makes is very close to zero.
Why are people complaining about Show and Tell now? It's not dramatically more powerful than before. It's not suddenly showing up in huge numbers, it's just finally gaining the attention it always had deserved. It's still not dominating tournaments. Countering it with hate from sideboard is almost as easy as countering Dredge.
If any currently legal card deserves to get banned, it is Green Sun's Zenith (I'm not saying it should get the banhammer, but it's the only extremely powerful card I can think of that I wouldn't be sad to never see again in Legacy).
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
Show and Tell has been legal in Legacy for ages. You have been able to put Progenitus onto the battlefield with it for years. I remember that one didn't simply win games when the opponent had Progenitus on the field. Emrakul and Griselbrand aren't faster than Progenitus and have less built-in protection, but they come with additional effects. You can argue that they are more powerful or less powerful than Progenitus, but in any case, the difference it makes is very close to zero.
Why are people complaining about Show and Tell now? It's not dramatically more powerful than before. It's not suddenly showing up in huge numbers, it's just finally gaining the attention it always had deserved. It's still not dominating tournaments. Countering it with hate from sideboard is almost as easy as countering Dredge.
If any currently legal card deserves to get banned, it is Green Sun's Zenith (I'm not saying it should get the banhammer, but it's the only extremely powerful card I can think of that I wouldn't be sad to never see again in Legacy).
Everything in this post is wrong.
Griselbrand is indeed more powerful than Progenitus. Play test some against/with the old Sneak and Show and the new Sneak and Show if you don't believe me.
Show and Tell is more powerful now and has potential to get more in the future.
Green Sun's Zenith does not need to be banned. Green finally got some kind of card manipulation and you want it gone?!? Green Sun's Zenith does nothing broken and makes green as a color competitive.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Infinitium
Then again, the blue-shell-1-card-combo-involving-extra-card-never-on-the-stack is historically an archetype that gets cropped every few years.
No loss for me either way, SnT was poorly designed to begin with and wizards has painted themselves into a corner with the 1-turn-to-find-ridiculously-narrow-answer-or-die fatties.
That's a good post with good arguments.
.. and I'm not advocating the banning of Show and tell (at least for now not.. let's wait and see).
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
Everything in this post is wrong.
Griselbrand is indeed more powerful than Progenitus. Play test some against/with the old Sneak and Show and the new Sneak and Show if you don't believe me.
Show and Tell is more powerful now and has potential to get more in the future.
Green Sun's Zenith does not need to be banned. Green finally got some kind of card manipulation and you want it gone?!? Green Sun's Zenith does nothing broken and makes green as a color competitive.
Someone struck a nerve, lol. Green Sun's Zenith is ridiculously powerful. If bsz did the same thing except for a sorcery instead of a creature people would be crying for bans. These green/x creatures are just as if not more powerful than some sorceries.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rxavage
Someone struck a nerve, lol. Green Sun's Zenith is ridiculously powerful. If bsz did the same thing except for a sorcery instead of a creature people would be crying for bans. These green/x creatures are just as if not more powerful than some sorceries.
No. Absolutely no.
The ONLY tool to interact with a sorcery is a counterspell, that is, only one color. On the other hand every color have tools to interact with a creature.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
You'll know it's the end of Legacy when the top deck looks like the top deck from Modern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Maverick consistently putting 4 players into the Top 8 in many events, and taking 7 out of 8 places in one event, are real tournament results. Maverick has done more format domination than Survival Vengevine did.
- This. If were are going by the logic of what to ban based on performance, something from Maverick should have been banned. (like the broken GSZ card, lol)
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I have never been able to understand these calls for banning. My favorite card is Serra Angel, since I opened one in my first pack of revised. Yes I would have more fun casting it, should I call for banning of everything till it is good again and I can have "fun" playing it.
There is no reason to think that there should ever be more than 3 or 4 types of tier one decks. They will always be a strongest card in the format. But really it is sad when I think certain cards will never be played with again in a format I love. I love the choices Legacy gives me, even if those choices may not be the best for winning at any given time. If Brainstorm, Show and Tell, go what is next. All of these cards can be fought. I understand that at any given time not all strategies are viable, but that isn't a reason for banning cards. It is sort of like Dr. Jones always calling for the banning of FoW. WHen has FoW ever one a game? It's the card it protects that actually wins the game.
Brainstorm is a great card and allows a player to actually outplay their opponent on skill, which is actually really nice. It also helps take random variance out by smoothing draws and preventing land issues from unintentionally deciding games. These are good things for an environment. Sometimes I think people only care about winning and forget how much fun Magic can be when you have to actually think, try, and test ideas to win in certain situations.
I'm sorry Serra Angel is no longer good, but I love the fact that I have so many choices of cards to play with every week. That has to be worth something.
In a side note, try building decks without fetches anymore, fucking really hard and it totally changes mana bases. I had forgotten what it was like pre 2001. But again I honestly think these all make Magic better.
Seth
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zinch
No. Absolutely no.
The ONLY tool to interact with a sorcery is a counterspell, that is, only one color. On the other hand every color have tools to interact with a creature.
Every colour has a way to disrupt every other colour. Why shouldn't every other colour have a repeatable tutor to find the answer to its problems?
Many years ago I traded revised duals for serras and seraphs. I still love those cards and wish they were playable.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sroncor1
I have never been able to understand these calls for banning. My favorite card is Serra Angel, since I opened one in my first pack of revised. Yes I would have more fun casting it, should I call for banning of everything till it is good again and I can have "fun" playing it.
There is no reason to think that there should ever be more than 3 or 4 types of tier one decks. They will always be a strongest card in the format. But really it is sad when I think certain cards will never be played with again in a format I love. I love the choices Legacy gives me, even if those choices may not be the best for winning at any given time. If Brainstorm, Show and Tell, go what is next. All of these cards can be fought. I understand that at any given time not all strategies are viable, but that isn't a reason for banning cards. It is sort of like Dr. Jones always calling for the banning of FoW. WHen has FoW ever one a game? It's the card it protects that actually wins the game.
Brainstorm is a great card and allows a player to actually outplay their opponent on skill, which is actually really nice. It also helps take random variance out by smoothing draws and preventing land issues from unintentionally deciding games. These are good things for an environment. Sometimes I think people only care about winning and forget how much fun Magic can be when you have to actually think, try, and test ideas to win in certain situations.
I'm sorry Serra Angel is no longer good, but I love the fact that I have so many choices of cards to play with every week. That has to be worth something.
In a side note, try building decks without fetches anymore, fucking really hard and it totally changes mana bases. I had forgotten what it was like pre 2001. But again I honestly think these all make Magic better.
Seth
This is the same fallacy that Hanni exhibits. You try to deflect by talking about Serra Angel, but your argument is really about brainstorm. That is your (and zillions of others) pet card.
I wish you'd all see that complaining about a new card that pushes a ton of other strategies/cards out the window is exactly the same as complaining against a ban on your favorite cards/strategies.
If the DCI bans a card that forces you to play other cards you really don't like or WOTC creates a broken interaction, it's really all the same. You play Legacy with certain expectations and rules and when someone drastically changes those expectations and rules you have a right to speak out about it.
Just to clarify I don't advocate banning brainstorm.
I do advocate banning Show And Tell.
If you go the adapting to snt/gb thread on this forum, you will see how truly limited options there are against this deck. With those limited options, if people want to be competitive, they are figuring out they can either take up RUG, or perhaps a UW control deck with humility. There really aren't that many answers. We are trying to adapt, but it seems like the only way to adapt is to play decks that interact on the stack (blue w/ brainstorm.) That is what I mean by pushing other strategies out.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Fallacy? lol
There's no fallacy. If the DCI decided to ban, let's say Delver, on this next B&R... I'd also quit. You obviously missed the point I was making regarding banning.
It's possible to adapt to a strong strategy. It is not possible to play with banned cards. Once a card is banned, it's gone for good. Maybe, just maybe, it will come off the banned list in 5+ years... but don't get your hopes up. If a card is seriously degenerate, format warping, and dominating Legacy, I'm all for the ban. I've yet to see anything remotely indicating any of those factors for either Show and Tell or Brainstorm.
(FYI, Brainstorm isn't why RUG is doing well.)
I really do feel bad for all of you who are having such a tough time beating Show and Tell decks. Mind if I ask what deck(s) you're getting your asses beat with? That might shed some light on the matter.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Fallacy? lol
There's no fallacy. If the DCI decided to ban, let's say Delver, on this next B&R... I'd also quit. You obviously missed the point I was making regarding banning.
It's possible to adapt to a strong strategy. It is not possible to play with banned cards. Once a card is banned, it's gone for good. Maybe, just maybe, it will come off the banned list in 5+ years... but don't get your hopes up. If a card is seriously degenerate, format warping, and dominating Legacy, I'm all for the ban. I've yet to see anything remotely indicating any of those factors for either Show and Tell or Brainstorm.
(FYI, Brainstorm isn't why RUG is doing well.)
I really do feel bad for all of you who are having such a tough time beating Show and Tell decks. Mind if I ask what deck(s) you're getting your asses beat with? That might shed some light on the matter.
Your smugness only helps to highlight the problem. You've said yourself that you can beat SNT decks. But all of the decks you've built to beat SNT decks have brainstorm and several other cards that interact with the stack. Mind telling us of a deck you've built that can beat SNT that uses any color BUT blue?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Actually, I think Junk decks have a far better matchup against Show and Tell decks than general blue decks do, but why should that even matter? What you are complaining about right now is blues ability to answer non-interactive combo decks with countermagic, not about Brainstorm. This is not some new fucking concept. Do you think G/W Aggro decks stood a chance against Storm Tendrils before GSZ? Hint: they didn't. Why should your aggro decks without disruption like discard or countermagic suddenly be able to beat combo decks? Do you understand how this format works?
You still didn't answer my question about what decks you're getting your ass beat with. And smugness? What the hell does that have anything to do with anything?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
You want a quick protip on improving your combo matchups with aggro decks? (In this case, let's use G/W Maverick as an example) - Splash a third color.
I'm pretty sure that both Rock and Bant have a good RUG matchup, too.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I don't think you've played against any SNT decks with anything other than blue. Leyline of sanctity comes in and they can still win on turn 2.
SNT is not a combo deck. SNT is acceleration. It's like the blue metalworker.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
SNT is not a combo deck. SNT is acceleration. It's like the blue metalworker.
This. Show and Tell -> Griselbrand is no more combo than Dark Ritual -> Hypnotic Specter.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I guess assembling two specific cards in hand is no longer considered a combo?
Also, Leyline doesn't automatically give SNT the win vs decks with discard. First of all, as with all Leylines, it can be incredibly inconsistent. Do you mulligan into a Leyline if you don't see one? Do you go down to 5? Mull'ing good hands because they don't have a Leyline can lower consistency, and keeping hands without one means you may have some dead draws later. What if you mull to 4 to find a Leyline, keeping a shitty hand, and get run over by their aggro?
That's also assuming that the player with discard has no enchantment removal, or other ways to interact.
Quote:
This. Show and Tell -> Griselbrand is no more combo than Dark Ritual -> Hypnotic Specter.
Except, SNT doesn't do anything without one of the other combo pieces in hand, where Ritual would. Besides, that example is pretty awful. No one runs Rituals to drop crap like Specter these days.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I was not complaining that I can not play Serra anymore. My point was to show it was my favorite card but it is no longer playable and I am ok with that bc, I like having so many choices. The key is I can STILL play it even if it isn't the best.
Show and Tell is perfectly fine right now. Almost every color has many ways to attack the deck in all its variations. From lots of discard, Knights, to things like REB, the format has so many answers.
I do love that people complain that brainstorm is everywhere, yet why don't they complain about duals and fetch lands. They are equally pervasive and fall under the same standards.
Also brainstorm isn't my pet card. I haven't played it in sanctioned play in over two years. Just FYI.
Seth
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
I guess assembling two specific cards in hand is no longer considered a combo?
A: It's not 2 specific cards. It's 8 cards that can each work with 8 other cards. We're not talking about chaining 10 specific spells together while being susceptible to counters, discard, thalia, teeg, etc. along the way. It's not a "2-card combo" like servant where you have to keep a fragile creature and a specific artifact on the battlefield for a turn and can still lose to a vialed in grunt. It's not even reanimator, where you not only have to get the creature into your graveyard, but you must also resolve another spell in the face of counters, discard, thalia, and surgical extraction.
This is a one-spell game-ender. That's not a combo. It's one spell that has a drawback of you have to have one of 8 separate cards in your deck in your hand as well. Not only that, but it's completely herp-derp. I lost a game to a guy who told me I couldn't target emrakul with surgical extraction in response to its graveyard trigger because it had protection against colored spells.... on turn 3.... without him casting a single cantrip....
Why are you okay with this???
Quote:
Also, Leyline doesn't automatically give SNT the win vs decks with discard.
No, the turn 2 or 3 griselbrand and/or hasty emrakul that you can't even try to disrupt does.
Quote:
First of all, as with all Leylines, it can be incredibly inconsistent. Do you mulligan into a Leyline if you don't see one? Do you go down to 5? Mull'ing good hands because they don't have a Leyline can lower consistency, and keeping hands without one means you may have some dead draws later.
It can be inconsistent, but who cares? Against a deck running black, who has put in anywhere from 8-12 targeted discard into their deck in order to get a minute chance to beat you, you have all the time in the world because of their 12 dead draws vs. your 3 dead leyline draws. Also you have brainstorm (ahem), ponder, and intuition to help safeguard against it. Please give me a break already.
Quote:
What if you mull to 4 to find a Leyline, keeping a shitty hand, and get run over by their aggro?
Last time I checked junk was not an aggro deck. Decks that run Duress, IOK, Thoughtseize, and Hymn are not usually part of aggro decks. Aggro decks want to win by turn 3 or 4, and spending the first couple of turns trying to disrupt you and hoping you don't naturally draw into any one of your 8 win conditions isn't really a good strategy. But since you're better than 99% of all legacy players, as you stated previously, maybe you could show us a list that has black, no blue, and won't fold to a leyline?
Quote:
Except, SNT doesn't do anything without one of the other combo pieces in hand, where Ritual would. Besides, that example is pretty awful. No one runs Rituals to drop crap like Specter these days.
False. Ritual doesn't do anything without another card to accelerate into, either. It's exactly the same as a ritual except if you don't counter the ritual you can still counter the next card. Also switch the OP's example with dark ritual into Liliana or hymn followed by a duress instead of just sidestepping the point.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
This. Show and Tell -> Griselbrand is no more combo than Dark Ritual -> Hypnotic Specter.
You don't need Ritual to cast Hypnotic Specter. You don't need Hypnotic Specter to take use of your Ritual. The ultimate goal of your deck isn't resolving a Ritual and casting a Specter, you're not necessarily in a losing position if either gets countered and you're not necessarily in a clearly winning position when both resolve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
Griselbrand is indeed more powerful than Progenitus. Play test some against/with the old Sneak and Show and the new Sneak and Show if you don't believe me.
Show and Tell is more powerful now and has potential to get more in the future.
Green Sun's Zenith does not need to be banned. Green finally got some kind of card manipulation and you want it gone?!? Green Sun's Zenith does nothing broken and makes green as a color competitive.
Sure, Griselbrand may indeed be more powerful than Progenitus. It doesn't matter, SnT players won the game anyway when they had their SnT resolve and their fatty unanswered for a couple of turns, and they still do. Okay, I admit that Griselbrand works well with Sneak Attack while Progenitus wasn't the hottest tech, but if that's the difference which makes SneakShow decks too powerful these days and barely viable before, shouldn't we discussing the banning of Sneak Attack instead of banning Show and Tell? Show and Tell is more powerful, but the decks featuring it aren't that much more powerful.
Green was competitive without Green Sun's Zenith and would still be competitive without it. Card manipulation is not in green's slice of the color pie, green doesn't need card manipulation and green shouldn't have it. And GSZ is basically just better than Mystical Tutor was for spells - it cantrips and removes color requirements in addition to what Mystical Tutor does.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Actually, I think Junk decks have a far better matchup against Show and Tell decks than general blue decks do
Hanni, do you splash blue in your Junk deck? Be real with us.
For the record, I don't support the unbanning of Yawgmoth's Bargain. My comparison was supposed to objectively underscore how ridiculous a card Griselbrand is. It's a Yawgmoth's Bargain that can also win by itself. Until drawing cards is bad, Griselbrand will be bonkers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
Show and Tell -> Griselbrand is no more combo than Dark Ritual -> Hypnotic Specter.
Totally wrong. One pair wins you the game. The other gets Plowed, Bolted, Forked Bolted, or doesn't even matter over the course of the game. One is broken; the other is barely playable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
Why are people complaining about Show and Tell now? It's not dramatically more powerful than before.
Totally wrong. It is DRAMATICALLY more powerful than before. I honestly don't know how any player who had even seen the deck could make such a claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
You can argue that they are more powerful or less powerful than Progenitus, but in any case, the difference it makes is very close to zero.
Wrong again. In the past, you could play narrow answers like Fleshbag Marauder to one-for-one them off the Show and Tell. You could run Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict or Tariff or Retribution of the Meek. (I have played all of those at times in the past.) You could play Curfew. You could conceivably race Progenitus. Griselbrand --> FOW trumps most removal in this format, and stuff like Oblivion Ring or Karakas doesn't do much, since they still get to draw 7 cards. Even if the card gets removed, it STILL draws 7 cards. So the Sneak and Show player gets to stack his hand for the next turn and probably use Force of Will to free-roll you. There are not many ways you're going to be able win from such a situation.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
This is a one-spell game-ender. That's not a combo. It's one spell that has a drawback of you have to have one of 8 separate cards in your deck in your hand as well. Not only that, but it's completely herp-derp. I lost a game to a guy who told me I couldn't target emrakul with surgical extraction in response to its graveyard trigger because it had protection against colored spells.... on turn 3.... without him casting a single cantrip....
...right, and Belcher probably isn't a combo either. It's one spell that has a drawback of you have to have six of 49 separate cards in your deck in your hand as well.
Also, you can't ban a card because a single person someone on the Internet played against used that card and didn't know the rules. It doesn't make even the slightest sense.
Why wouldn't we be okay with a completely fair card enabling some completely fair decks?
Quote:
No, the turn 2 or 3 griselbrand and/or hasty emrakul that you can't even try to disrupt does.
You have at least 1-2 turns to disrupt it even when you're otd. Besides, the turn 1 lethal Tendrils by Spanish Inquisition is something that doesn't see almost any play because it's so easy to disrupt - why can't you disrupt this much slower combo?
Quote:
It can be inconsistent, but who cares? Against a deck running black, who has put in anywhere from 8-12 targeted discard into their deck in order to get a minute chance to beat you, you have all the time in the world because of their 12 dead draws vs. your 3 dead leyline draws. Also you have brainstorm (ahem), ponder, and intuition to help safeguard against it. Please give me a break already.
If a combo deck doesn't work consistently, it doesn't work. If an aggro deck topdecks 2-3 dead draws per game against a combo deck that doesn't work, the aggro deck still wins.
Quote:
Last time I checked junk was not an aggro deck. Decks that run Duress, IOK, Thoughtseize, and Hymn are not usually part of aggro decks. Aggro decks want to win by turn 3 or 4, and spending the first couple of turns trying to disrupt you and hoping you don't naturally draw into any one of your 8 win conditions isn't really a good strategy. But since you're better than 99% of all legacy players, as you stated previously, maybe you could show us a list that has black, no blue, and won't fold to a leyline?
Why on earth should there be a deck without disruption that beats combo? WHY? Yeah, you should ban all the burn spells because a 40 creature removal spells.dec can't beat it. Ban Cavern of Souls and AEther Vial because counterspells don't do much against them. Also ban all counterspells because they counter spells and why not ban creature removal spells too, because they also happen to do the only thing they are designed to do? Combo decks beat decks that don't have enough disruption. That's their purpose, and that's the only thing they can do well.
Griselbrand is legendary. Show and Tell is two-sided. You don't even have to pay mana in order to counter that deck.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
...right, and Belcher probably isn't a combo either. It's one spell that has a drawback of you have to have six of 49 separate cards in your deck in your hand as well.
Charbelcher requires severe sacrifices in deck construction and flexibility. Griselbrand, by contrast, can fit into any deck that cheats things into play and improve it. If you're dumping things into play with Show and Tell or Eureka or Hypergenesis, you now have a card that refills your hand for another round of dumping stuff into play. Even if Griselbrand just sits back as if he had defender, he's still effectively ended that game. The card performs well in Reanimator and Dredge. It enables a Tendrils kill in the Griselbargain deck. It's a win condition on its own. If the card didn't have lifelink, it would be easier to combat. As is, it's just insane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
You have at least 1-2 turns to disrupt it even when you're otd.
Are you for real? Their deck plays Force of Will and Brainstorm and Misdirection and Spell Pierce. And usually Leyline out of the board. And if you lose the die roll, you can assume you have 1 less turn. Why is it hard to see that this is a problem?
SHOW OF HANDS: Who wants a format dominated by Show and Tell decks vs. control decks with Delver? Because if we aren't there now, we'll be there soon.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
...right, and Belcher probably isn't a combo either. It's one spell that has a drawback of you have to have six of 49 separate cards in your deck in your hand as well.
Also, you can't ban a card because a single person someone on the Internet played against used that card and didn't know the rules. It doesn't make even the slightest sense.
Why wouldn't we be okay with a completely fair card enabling some completely fair decks?
You have at least 1-2 turns to disrupt it even when you're otd. Besides, the turn 1 lethal Tendrils by Spanish Inquisition is something that doesn't see almost any play because it's so easy to disrupt - why can't you disrupt this much slower combo?
Force of will, misdirection, spell pierce, and Leylines in the board. Also brainstorm hiding cards.
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If a combo deck doesn't work consistently, it doesn't work. If an aggro deck topdecks 2-3 dead draws per game against a combo deck that doesn't work, the aggro deck still wins.
Why on earth should there be a deck without disruption that beats combo? WHY? Yeah, you should ban all the burn spells because a 40 creature removal spells.dec can't beat it. Ban Cavern of Souls and AEther Vial because counterspells don't do much against them. Also ban all counterspells because they counter spells and why not ban creature removal spells too, because they also happen to do the only thing they are designed to do? Combo decks beat decks that don't have enough disruption. That's their purpose, and that's the only thing they can do well.
Griselbrand is legendary. Show and Tell is two-sided. You don't even have to pay mana in order to counter that deck.
now you're just being silly. come on. I suppose you mean the karakas argument, as if they can't draw 14 in response to you bouncing it.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
This whole thread needs to go eat bath salts.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Holy shit the quality of posts in this thread has taken a turn for the stupid. I'm gonna do a quick response to a few things, and then I'm done feeding the trolls.
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It's not 2 specific cards.
Sure it is. It's combo enabler + creature. Running 8 enablers and 8 creatures doesn't change the fact that you need 2 specific cards (enabler + creature). That's, ding ding ding, a combo. Thanks for playing.
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No, the turn 2 or 3 griselbrand and/or hasty emrakul that you can't even try to disrupt does.
Oh, yes, I forgot. The SNT player is always going to have turn 2 Griselbrand after they mulligan'ed to 5 for Leyline. Ooops, my bad.
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Last time I checked junk was not an aggro deck. Decks that run Duress, IOK, Thoughtseize, and Hymn are not usually part of aggro decks.
They don't win with aggro? Could have fooled me.
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Aggro decks want to win by turn 3 or 4
Ah, now I see what you meant by that last one. So by your definition, the only aggro decks in the format are... Goblins, Zoo, and Affinity?
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False. Ritual doesn't do anything without another card to accelerate into, either. It's exactly the same as a ritual except if you don't counter the ritual you can still counter the next card. Also switch the OP's example with dark ritual into Liliana or hymn followed by a duress instead of just sidestepping the point.
There's a difference between being able to use Dark Ritual to cast the other 30+ spells in your deck, and using Show and Tell to put into play one of the 8 creatures you run. I didn't sidestep anything, you missed my point, again. Which doesn't matter because you didn't even acknowledge the other part I said... you know, the part where I said casting a Ritual into a Specter (or insert fair card here) was pretty stupid in the first place.
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Hanni, do you splash blue in your Junk deck? Be real with us.
Where the fuck are you trolls getting this shit from? Seriously.
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Totally wrong. One pair wins you the game. The other gets Plowed, Bolted, Forked Bolted, or doesn't even matter over the course of the game. One is broken; the other is barely playable.
Totally wrong. One pair is playable without the other. The other pair requires that you have both of them to be useful. One is a "combo" that may win you the game, the other one are two individual pieces that have no reliance upon one another. The example presented by Majikal was pretty bad.
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SHOW OF HANDS: Who wants a format dominated by Show and Tell decks vs. control decks with Delver? Because if we aren't there now, we'll be there soon.
lol
Oh and lastly,
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But since you're better than 99% of all legacy players, as you stated previously, maybe you could show us a list that has black, no blue, and won't fold to a leyline?
And YOU were accusing ME of logical fallacy's?
Okay, have fun guys.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Where the fuck are you trolls getting this shit from? Seriously.
Just poking fun at you, Hanni, considering your past as someone who never leaves home without Brainstorm. I mean, you did come into the Aggro Loam thread several times suggesting that the deck splash blue.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
now you're just being silly. come on. I suppose you mean the karakas argument, as if they can't draw 14 in response to you bouncing it.
No. In fact, I forgot about whole Karakas while making that argument.
They can't draw 14 in response to two Griselbrands committing suicide after seeing each other on different sides of the battlefield. There also is no way they can counter it. If ever Show and Tell becomes dominant enough to dedicate sideboard slots for, put in 4 Griselbrands and watch the opponent's reaction as he sets up a Show and Tell with tons of counter backups and it ends up doing nothing.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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And YOU were accusing ME of logical fallacy's?
Okay, have fun guys.
I asked you for some shred of proof of a nonblue answer to the deck that didn't also fold to a turn 0 leyline. To which you responded with nothing.
In the adapting thread, you offered pithing needle as a card that "hoses" SNT.
Yes, turn 1 needle naming Sneak
Turn 2 needle naming Griselbrand
untap and your opponent just SNT emrakul while you've been durdling the past 2 turns.
It's not one card or the other that is the problem. It's all 16 cards at once in a blue shell with brainstorm and and instant demonic tutor for 2U. Why can't you see it? I don't get it.
And please stop acting like it's hard for SNT to win on turn 2-3 even after a mulligan to 5, because it's not. I've watched it happen. Please try playing a nonblue deck against SNT for a few games and see the consistency.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
And please stop acting like it's hard for SNT to win on turn 2-3 even after a mulligan to 5, because it's not. I've watched it happen. Please try playing a nonblue deck against SNT for a few games and see the consistency.
It really isn't hard for any deck with the nuts against a favorable match-up to win on turn two or three with the right combination of cards. What is illogical is assuming that it will happen more often than it won't, because if you're mulling to five and Showing in an Emrakul with a hand saturated with nothing, then you're far from in the clear.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Hollywood
It really isn't hard for any unfair deck with the nuts against a favorable match-up to win on turn two or three with the right combination of cards. What is illogical is assuming that it will happen more often than it won't, because if you're mulling to five and Showing in an Emrakul with a hand saturated with nothing, then you're far from in the clear.
^fixed that for you
Also you don't need the nuts. You just need something like leyline, brainstorm, land/petal, 2 other cards.
Then you have 2-3 turns to dig for your answer while your opponent is sitting there with 3 discard spells and a pithing needle in hand.
Again, just stop it. You're obviously not playing against the deck at any regular pace. Even in the SNT thread they are acknowledging how broken it is. Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I'm officially done with this on my end. I hope they do ban one of the problem cards of that deck. If it's SNT, then so be it.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'm convinced over half of you don't even play legacy irl and are basing your arguments off of a few 'trice games.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
sroncor1
I was not complaining that I can not play Serra anymore. My point was to show it was my favorite card but it is no longer playable and I am ok with that bc, I like having so many choices. The key is I can STILL play it even if it isn't the best.
Show and Tell is perfectly fine right now. Almost every color has many ways to attack the deck in all its variations. From lots of discard, Knights, to things like REB, the format has so many answers.
I do love that people complain that brainstorm is everywhere, yet why don't they complain about duals and fetch lands. They are equally pervasive and fall under the same standards.
Also brainstorm isn't my pet card. I haven't played it in sanctioned play in over two years. Just FYI.
Seth
No?
Duals aren-t pushing a single color more than others, neither are they hosing a single color (black) more than others. Duals are 10 different cards, and them being banned would not shorten the banned list for sure, neither would make us play more different cards. Duals aren-t pushing any strategy anywhere, if anything they allow us to play multicolor more efficiently, at the cost of being more vulnerable to wasteland.
And finally, if Brainstorm is a poster card of Legacy, Duals are THE poster cards for legacy. When i started playing, brainstorm wasn-t a card, and duals were already everywhere, from balance decks to Kird Ape aggro ( i started with black bordered revised, the first italian edition). Cards like Lotus and Moxen or Sol Ring were already banned or limited, but duals were the universal cards that everyone could play in their decks and the baseline of the trading economy of magic.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
As much as I dislike S&T as well as Delver, I'd rather they not be banned. However, as others have stated, these cards (mostly S&T) are not easy to adapt to, pretty much mandating "Go Blue or Go Home". I just wish Wizards would throw Legacy some bones by expanding the abilities of other colors. That black discard spell that hits an opponent for how many cards they drew this turn sounds okay (except I'd have it only be usable when an opponent drew 3+ so stuff doesn't become terribly unfun for non-BSing players) and I'm a big advocate of bleeding countermagic into red and white. I'd really like to see the following:
AW HELL NO
2RR
Instant
You may remove a red card in your hand instead of paying AW HELL NO's mana cost.
AW HELL NO can't be the target of blue spells or abilities.
Counter target Instant or Sorcery.
CAN'T TOUCH THIS
WWW
Instant
You may remove a white card in your hand from the game instead of paying CAN'T TOUCH THIS's mana cost.
Counter any number of spells that target you.
Give other colors a means to interact with the stack. Bleed library manipulation and card selection into other colors through decent staples with cycling and scry. And for the love of God, stop printing outstanding Blue cards in every type and enough with the dumb fatties that don't have Phage clauses.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
People finally get tired of losing to G/W Aggro and decide to start playing Combo, and all of a sudden it's time to ban a combo enabler? SNT isn't putting up any dominating numbers right now, and RUG would still be putting the same amount of players in the Top 8 regardless (there's plenty of tournament data for the last 6 months+ to back that up).
However, you've been advocating for combo enabler bans for years now Taco, so I know it's impossible for us to come to an agreement, and that's fine. You don't like Spiral Tides and Show and Tell's, and "insert next new combo enabler here." I'm not saying I like those cards either, I just don't think they should get banhammered. I'll just leave it at that.
In my defense, you don't hear me bitch about Dredge, Reanimator, Belcher, Painter Stone, or 95% of the combo decks that have been around. I don't actually advocate for the banning of decks. I advocate for the banning of specific cards.
My top argument for the banning Show and Tell is this - Regardless of how you feel about the situation now, the card will never ever become less prominent barring the printing of a versatile hoser that wrecks it. Every Emrakul/Progenitus/Griselbrand/Giant Space Monster of Doom that ever gets printed? Show and Tell gets another option. Every bizarre artifact or enchantment that somehow ends the game upon resolving? Show and Tell gets another option. Show and Tell, indisputably, is only going to get better.
I won't lie. I've called for the banning of a few cards. There's still some Legacy staples to this day that, while I wouldn't directly call for the banning of, I wouldn't care if I saw gone for one reason or another. Lion's Eye Diamond is involved in almost every turn one win in Legacy, and I feel is always under a watch. But the other one, to my defense, isn't really a combo card. It's Sensei's Divining Top. I think the card just makes magic worse on the whole.
But Show and Tell is a cancer. And even if you disagree with it needing to be banned now (Which I clearly think it does, but I respect your opinion otherwise), you can't argue that with time it will almost certainly be too big of a problem to ignore.
Also, I still wouldn't mind seeing it banned and reprinted as a 3U spell that could drop Planeswalkers.
