Cockatrice? Lol. Sylvan Basilisk is just so much better there.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
Alternatively, TNN can't block fliers or dudes equipped with Sword of Fire and Ice.
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Cockatrice? Lol. Sylvan Basilisk is just so much better there.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
Alternatively, TNN can't block fliers or dudes equipped with Sword of Fire and Ice.
That card is definitely the tech...I wonder what innovations we'll be seeing this weekend in Indy.
Has anyone had issues with blood moon? I run 4 basics but an early moon really hurts. Sneak and show can slam one down turn1 and even with 4 basics, no fetches makes it difficult for a 3-color deck. Not as bad as UWr delver but our curve is a bit higher, and they are at least somewhat on color.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Nothing you can do. They can also Show and Tell turn 1. Run your usual disenchant and hope that you have counters at the ready. That scenario never happens or when it does you might as well have a force of will.
I guess my question is, is that a normal sideboard choice against us for SnT to make, bringing in the blood moons?
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I don't know if it's right, but S&T players will often bring in Blood Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
The thing is, they usually can't slam one down T1, and if you're fetching wisely early, the value to them is much diminished and can actually be counterproductive to their plans.
I suspect there is some next leveling involved– if they think you're going to play around Blood Moon they probably don't want it cause you taxing your mana to play around it is good enough for them; if they think they can catch you unawares, they'll bring it in. It may be a case of side in for Game 2 for a free win, side out for Game 3 if you're playing around it.
So, I've been thinking. What happens if you replace the black pieces in an esper list with red sideboard cards and still use the same shell. Ofc the maindeck discard needs to be replaced by fluster/pierce/snare but otherwise the sideboard would be stronger against the TNN meta.
But why do you wanna drop black ? Black gives you access to Zealous Persecution, Toxic Deluge, Engineered Plague etc. Sp many good cards against TNN
If you ask me i would stay with black. Furthermore you have Thoughtseize to kik TNN out of the opponents' hand.
Black can never protect itself from a topdeck and doesnt take care of jace on board. Which is something red does. I know of all the strong black cards, but I just feel that I board out almost all discard against so many decks. Information is key, but what if I whiff and he draws it from the top? On the other hand, the situation might be reverse where I draw into a REB and not ZP to kill his TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
How do we feel about Liliana in the sideboard to combat Miracles? The deck is looking like it's making a resurgence in my meta (3 of the top 4 decks yesterday were Miracles, with me being the only one not). I lost my only match yesterday against Miracles, but I lost soundly. Granted, I don't have a huge amount of experience with the matchup, but I know that miracles has problems with planeswalkers on the other side of the board.
Liliana could be incidentally brought in as well against combo decks, so it wouldn't necessarily be a one trick pony. The only issue I'm concerned about is the double black, though.
Thoughts?
Liliana sure is a decent Option, but i think more Vendillion Clique and Pithing Needle are even better. I personaly always play the 1-off Clique since it prevents Entreats, Terminus, catches Jace and Liliana eot and is still decent against combo. Needle names Top most of the time, because Miracle is just a durdle-top.dec and if they cant control their draws the deck gets a lot weaker. Kinda depends on how much TNN you are facing too.Quote:
Originally Posted by FortyThree
Black is bad against top decks but that's why you have blue. Black takes a card and gives you information about what to counter (or what not to). It stops them from baiting counters also. I much prefer the control aspect of black to the removal and extra damage of red. A lightning bolt is a better top deck but overall I would rather the control.
As far as liliana goes I've never felt like she is worth it. Then again I've never felt like I needed anything she has to offer.
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Notion Thief. Miracles dont care about Liliana.Quote:
Originally Posted by FortyThree
Claiming that Miracles don't care about Liliana is a bold statement, and most likely straight up wrong. Liliana forces Miracle to act - as it will nuke down alot of their permanents once ultimated.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
BUT
Liliana is a threat against Miracle in decks like Jund or such, that can commit all of their hand onto the board as soon as they draw it. Esperblade cannot really do that.
Concluding, yeah Lilly is a fine idea against Miracles, but needs a dedicated and probably overall worse boardingplan, resulting in unnecessary dissynergies and such. Notion Thief on the other hand is good and fits into your playstyle. So yeah, agreed on Notion Thief being better, but not on your reasoning.
Greetings
Thats what you get for answering shortly on your phone. What I meant is that a single Liliana without any pressure (just like you said) does almost nothing against miracles until it reaches 7 loyalty. Discarding cards when there is nothing on board except her means nothing since miracles can filter and just find that answer to her quite quickly. I would rather resolve a Notion Thief than a Liliana against miracles. Especially when they draw a card with top that will otherwise ruin my day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Liliana is not as rough against Miracles as some other decks if they have a resolved Top because they can manipulate card order even if hellbent. She has to be answered eventually, but without anything else pressuring them, Miracles can tough it through even an ultimate (Top can always survive an ultimate). Jace usually trumps her.
She's more effective in Jund because they can use Hymn to get you hellbent faster, get her out faster, and develop lots of board pressure.
Notion Thief is cute and can lead to blowouts, but Miracles has lots of creature removal and waiting for an opportune time to cast him may lead you to trouble. Vendilion Clique is probably just better, because it can interact directly with the miracle mechanic, and is better in combo matchups. I play with one main and one on the board.
Equipment is also good because Miracles can't deal with that very well.
Engineered Explosives can get rid of Counterbalance while being cast at inconvenient CMCs.
If they don't have Rest in Peace out, Lingering Souls can present a resilient problem for them, especially if you have equipment to suit them up with.
Elspeth is also good (better than Lilliana I'd say), but then the issue is WW instead of BB.
WW is so much easier to attain than BB. This deck is UW Stoneblade with a small black splash. Liliana is best against matchups that are already good for the most part and I like notion thief for Miracles but I think that Elspeth is better than both. As far as clique is concerned, it's good but they play their own Legendary creature package along with Karakas. Also, top makes clique worse.
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I would say that you are wrong. Most lists play with these sources:Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
9-11 Fetches/utilitylands
This calls for the exact same manaavailability.
I guess it's possible. I prefer the 4/2 split on tundra and USea, respectively. 9 fetches and a karakas. I also checked my list and realized I'm running a 2nd plains. Herm. I run 2 jace and a main deck elspeth. Anyway after looking over my list I suppose it's not a run - of - the - mill netdeck. For me, I guess I'm right.
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I am curious on the differences between Deathblade and (Esper)Blade Control. I think playing Bob makes a deck Deathblade but how about playing DRS or FoW? Is it considered Deathblade to play any amount of DRS? Isn't Deathblade generally too low on blue cards to support FoW, and thus plays additional discard? Both decks share a common creature suite (SFM, Nemesis, Snapcaster/Clique), similar disruption (TS, IoK, FoW, Pierce), and a couple of Jaces. Is it considered Blade Control if you play more than 3 basic lands, or any number of sweepers (EE, Verdict)? The line between the two archetypes is very slim. If 4 DRS is all it takes to draw the line, I think it is a bit excessive to talk about different decks altogether.
Anyways, here's the list I play and how it fluctuates:
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
Others (6)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
2 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
Sideboard (15)
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sometimes I like to go the 3/3 split between Snap and Nemesis or the 2/2 split between TS and IoK. Sometimes the Lilies and the 4th USea make way for a combination of Vindicates, Edicts, Island/Waste. Sometimes I like to play a 3/3/2 split between TS/FoW/Pierce. If I were to change 4 DRS for something like a couple of sweepers and counters, would it be more appropriate to discuss card choices in this thread?
i like the list, if i own lilianas ill squeeze them in. right now i cant decide whether i should stick with deathblade or just esper. im planning inplaying legacy open in orlando. so far heres my esper list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
4 sfm
3 snapcaster mage
3 tnn
1 vendilion clique
4 brainsoptorm
1 ponder
1 counterspell
3 fow
2 spell pierce
2 thoughtsize
1 iok
4 stp
1 detenion sphere
1 spreme verdict
1 vindicate
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 engeineered explosives
3 jtms
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 marshlats
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
1 plains
1 swamp
1 karakas
1 acaemy ruins( engeneered explosives and manrikigusari battles)
2 wasteland
1 glaial fortress (choke)
i wanna squueze in lingering souls here somewhere but its already a tight fit.
its either this or deathblade. almost the exact list minus the explosives, supremeverdict, clique, and the counterspell.
I dont think this deck can break lili's symmetry well enough to justify her inclusion. Furthermore, I think pithing needle from the board is better versus miracles as well. Naming top, it forces them to either force or wear//tear the needle. However, without the top, they are more likely to struggle to find the 1-2 artifact/enchantment removal spells in their deck.
If you're running Lingering Souls, then Snapcaster Mage flashing back discarded StP/Thoughseize/etc and Lingering Souls should be enough to make Liliana run smoothly should you choose to run her. When I was playing Vidi's GP Denver list, I found opposing Liliana's to be quite manageable due to decreased value from her discard thanks to Snapcaster and Lingering Souls.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
I don't understand why you guys are playing basic Swamp. The only time you ever want it is if you're on the draw against turn-1 Delver AND you want to spend your turn playing a discard spell. I feel like the rest of the time it actually makes the manabase worse.
On the contrary, I don't think you need any cards that break Liliana's symmetry at _all_. Liliana is not symmetrical. Few opponents can win from topdeck mode when you have an edict on the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
Basic Swamp was actually fairly important in the Lingering Souls heyday as having access to a guaranteed black source was paramount in those grindy matchups. Nowadays, with lists running sometimes 0 Lingering Souls, meh. I mean, we run enough black spells to justify a singleton Swamp, but it does lead to sometimes wonky openers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Nine seems like too many three drops.Quote:
4 sfm
3 snapcaster mage
3 tnn
1 vendilion clique
4 brainsoptorm
1 ponder
1 counterspell
3 fow
2 spell pierce
2 thoughtsize
1 iok
4 stp
1 detenion sphere
1 spreme verdict
1 vindicate
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 engeineered explosives
3 jtms
I think it's good in decks with 2+ Lingering Souls, but it has to replace either a colorless land or a spell. Imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I completely agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
On the topic of the Swamp, it's necessary post board vs death and taxes and UWr Delver. Wastelands and ports are somewhat difficult to fight through to land a Dread of Night or Zealous Persecution.
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So what are sideboards looking like these days? What do you guys think esperblade's worst matchups are and how and what do you board?
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Great discussion here guys, I'm enjoying what I'm reading!
Let me put out my current deck list, then I'll talk about some of the topics you guys are hitting on.
Lands (22)
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
Creatues (11)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard (15)
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
Main Deck
My list is pretty stock, with the exception of the Mana Leak. When tweeking the list today, I ended up with one slot in the main deck open. I contemplated the standard Ponder, but with my 3 Snapcaster Mages I wanted something a little more high impact. Here's the list of cards I considered.
- Mana Leak - I ended up deciding on this over Counterspell.
- Ponder - Standard option. Smooths draws, and provides versatility.
- Spell Pierce - It would be my 4th. Considering the number of combo decks showing up lately it's worth considering.
- Unearth - This is a fun little card I saw a friend playing a year or so ago in an esper shell. Makes Snapcaster Mage even more fun, and recurrs TNN.
- Detention Sphere - Just versatile removal, but a bit pricey.
- Diabolic Edict - I have one in the board, so I couldn't really justify one in the main as well.
- Counterspell - What I really wanted was an additional counterspell. A hard counter is best, but UU is just a little iffy when I'm also aiming for Liliana of the Veil. Mana leak won out since it's usually a hard counter anyway!
Mana Base
I feel like my mana base is relatively straight forward. I'm running 4 basics, with a 4/2 split between Tundra and Underground Sea. I originally had a Creeping Tar Pit, but CIP tapped just killed it for me too many times. Eight fetches feels right with 4 Brainstorm and 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and the Karakas feels mandatory with two Vendilion Cliques and a good number of SnT decks in Indianapolis.
Sideboard
Graveyard Hate - I'm running three Surgical Extraction because of the Snapcaster Mages in the main. I also feel that the biggest graveyard card right now is Punishing Fire, and surgical solves that quickly. Tarmogoyfs and Deathrite Shamans are still a problem, but I feel they can be dealt with by the rest of the deck.
Combo Hate - I've got a lot of this. Indianapolis showed a lot of SnT and Reanimator, and Orlando has Reanimator, Omni-Tell, and ANT so I thought it would be a good idea to stock up. That said, most of these cards have alternate uses as well.
- Meddling Mage - I love this guy. Hate bears in an equipment deck are just too good. He can name anything, just depends on what your scared of at the moment. He can also come in for non-combo match-ups. Name Abrupt Decay against Jund for instance.
- Flusterstorm - Pretty simple, they are Spell Pierce four and five. Can also come in for URW, or the mirror.
- Thoughtseize - Extra discard to ensure it's in the starting hand if possible. I chose Thoughtseize for it's versatility, and the matches where I want this the two life is irrelevant.
- Vendilion Clique - I've got a Karakas in the main to support this guy, and he simply trumps SnT most of the time!
- Diabolic Edict - While I initially included this for TNN, it turns out to be pretty darn good against SnT!
Other Utility Cards - Just a few other things that got included. Manriki-Gusari is for the TNN equipment match-ups. Zealous Persecution is for the same thing, but also works for DnT and Elves. Finally there's a utility Disenchant.
I'm not sure if Esper is the best deck right now, but it's the one I'm most comfortable with. I wanted to go with Shardless BUG, but all the RIP scared me away! I'm be doing more testing in preparation for the SCG Baltimore Open at the end of the month. I'll be interested to see what everyone else has to say!
I have to agree with above that Snapcaster Mage can break this symmetry pretty quickly. Also that it's not necessarily symmetric. If you have a Lilly on a clear board, and everyone is topdecking (this happens a LOT), the it's almost impossible for the opposition to win through creatures. They have to draw two or three in a row just to get Lilly down to a managable level, and then hope you don't draw a removal spell Snappy.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
I have to agree. I've tried Notion Thief a few times, and it's just pitiful. Clique does so much more work. It gives you information, is evasive, and plays well with Karakas!Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
My sideboard is geared mainly towards combo as well, which is quite prevalent in my meta. ANT in particular is super popular, which explains the Canonists:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Duress
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
1 Spell Pierce
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
So is combo a problem? I was under the impression that we do pretty okay Pre-sideboard and better post. What do you think about Dread of night for the board as a one of for death and taxes? I'm running 1 along 2 ZP.
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I think dread of night is too narrow. I'd just play 2zealous persecutions as they have play against elves,tnn/grixis too. U can also flash it back with snapcaster. If you need additional removal verdict is better I think.. I haven't got too much problems with Dxt with 2supreme verdict and 2zealous persecution post.
Death and taxes makes it very tough to get a verdict online. 5 is a lot, especially through ports and wastes. I run 1 verdict main, 2 ZP and 1 DoN side.
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Dread of night is unnecessary, D&T is a fine MU without and persecutions makes it even better.
I would play D&T all day if i could, but still find dread of night overkill. I would rather play a e. plague to have further options vs elves and other tribal decks before i even consider dread.
Combo is hard, thats why we overload the board with hate. Pseudo mirrors and creature mu's we're doing fine in already when counting in the ZPs as well.
So how do you board against Death and taxes, elves, JunkBlade, mud and merfolk?
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I played against DnT yesterday and had lots of great games. I used the list I posted on the previous page and boarded -4 FoW, -4 TS for +2 Edicts, +2 ZP, +2 Clique, +1 Needle, +1 Disenchant. DnT has a hard time beating Nemesis and Jittes.
With my current build I would do the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
DnT
Out
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
In
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant
I would probably leave the disenchant at home, it's just for Aether Vial. I would keep in two forces for their really important threats. Meddling Mages I'm on the fence about. They can name tricky things like Flickerwisp, Mangara of Corondor, or even Aether Vial if they don't land one t1.
Elves
Out
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Mana Leak
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce
In
3 Meddling Mage
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Thoughtseize
This is already a pretty good match-up. If you can get out a Umezawa's Jitte while preventing them from going off you're usually good. Lilly is just bad since they can flood the board out. Jace is OK, but I feel the disruption is just better - TNN is going to kill them. Two of the taxing counters come out. Pierce because it can't counter creatures. Both because elves produces sooo much mana.
Junk
Out
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
In
2 Meddling Mage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Diabolic Edict
I think this match is probably already OK. If they are running Hymn I might consider taking out more FoW. Meddling Mage comes in to name Abrupt Decay. Since they don't have access to Bolt, this pretty much prevents them from removing anything on the board w/o a Lilly.
Mud - Really, that's not a deck!
Out
Really having trouble thinking of what's not good....
1 Umezawa's Jitte
In
3 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant
Most of the deck already feels good for this match. I guess Pierces could come out since they kill you with creatures.... but then stopping their acceleration is more important (IMO). I like Meddling Mage since you can name the one trump they might have - Steel Hellkite or Karn Liberated for instance...
Merfolk
Out
2 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
In
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
1 Zealous Persecution
If they play Standstill, all you have to do is respond to it's casting by ruining their board state and you pretty much win. Otherwise, just keep lords off of the board and play around Daze. Also, always break a standstill right away. Letting it sit is a good way to give them all the advantage.