[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns

Please give us a sideboard too! Looks good so far, though I am dubious about the main deck Abrade (non-one cmc removal that doesn't go to the face I am wary of). Seems like you have way too much removal in the main deck, 7 is generally the upper-limit.

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Sure! Totally Forgot that

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Submerge
1 Abrade
1 Forked Bolt

To the Abrade Main, i play this one mostly so i can remove a Chalice pre Board, but you are right sometimes it feels clunky . I've been testing it for about 2 months now and im not sure if it should stay in the main. The meta at my locals is pretty diverse, but it feels like i always get to face the Chalice decks.

Seal of Primordium or Destructive Revelry?

I play 1 Grudge and 2 Revelry at the moment and was wondering if Seal was strictly better/worse than Revelry or worth a split. I am leaning towards instant speed right now.

Also, anybody else plays Stifle-less? I think the cardis garbage and that playing Mongoose is the main selling point to RUG.

I've won way too many games due to stifle to ever consider cutting it from mainboard. You're more than welcome to try to brew a midrange deck that doesn't use it

Nationals side event

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Goose

4 Bolt
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle

2 Seal of Fire
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Preordain

3 Volc
3 Trop
4 Waste
8 Fetchlands

1 Honden
1 Counterspell
1 Winter Orb
1 Loam
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pierce
2 Red Blast
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Grudge

2-0 Think Twice Miracles
2-0 Sneak and Show
0-2 Lands
0-2 Elves
1-2 Sea Stompy

Wins felt easy
G2 vs lands and elves were close but these are not good matchups
Chalice decks are a lottery

No new thoughts really
Still not a huge fan of WOrb but just grabbed whatever version of the deck I had in the drawer on the way out the door

Go get them you RUG players, it's your time to shine again!

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Originally Posted by Darkness

Go get them you RUG players, it's your time to shine again!

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Winter Orb is going to be a house in the post-ban metagame.

Aaand we’re back!

Yes! Time to play Legacy again!
I really believe these changes make RUG Delver the best Delver deck again

Hey guys!I took RUG Delver to a third place finish at the Legacy Classic at SCG Atlanta this past weekend. The turnout was 90 players even, which meant 7 rounds of Swiss before the cut to top 8.

The list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Wild Slash
4 Daze
1 Predict
2 Dismember

4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Barbarian Ring


My list is (heavily) influenced by Sean Brown and all his excellent content on the deck. I’ve only been playing it for about 3 months, so his articles and sideboarding strategies have been immensely helpful.

I ended up going undefeated in the Swiss, ending up 5-0-2 and entering into Top 8 at 2nd seed. Matchups:

Round 1: Czech Pile [WLW]
Round 2: Storm [LWW]
Round 3: Grixis Delver [WLW]
Round 4: Miracles [LWW]
Round 5: Grixis Delver [WW]
Round 6 and 7: ID
Quarterfinals: Loam Pox [WLW]
Semifinals: Grixis Delver (my opponent from round 5) [WLL]

The plan was originally to write up a longer report, but since more than half of my tournament was against DRS decks I'm not sure how relevant that information is given the B&R news today. It was a really fun tournament, and all of my opponents were great. I actually beat both of the players who got 1st and 2nd in the Swiss, but Zach got his revenge on me in the top 4 and went on to win the whole thing. I'm happy to answer any questions you all might have.

Great stuff @ComeOnAndSlam! Glad you enjoyed the list and my writing on it. I think a lot of the technology found pre-DRS ban will be excellent tools to use adapting to the format moving forward, even though I think many of us will be gravitating to Goyf-based lists as the first point of call (I personally may still be experimenting with the Monkies, just to see how relevant they are still).

Some questions:
- Thoughts on the Predict?
- Wild Slash is a spicy option I imagine inspired by recent Grixis lists. How relevant was it over an option such as Dead // Gone, be it via its damage prevention mode or ability to shoot for the face?

Also remember everyone to head to the RUG Discord for real-time chats of the deck:
https://discord.gg/VYWW2ND

How long 'til we reclaim DTB?

Thanks Sean!

I honestly didn't cast the Predict all day. I love the idea of it, but unfortunately never drew it to see if it was good. It seems like it's at its best in grindy matchups, and with BUG decks on the decline now I could see it becoming something like Loam (or Standstill!)

The Wild Slash was something I've been trying. I have always wanted 7 removal spells for DRS and that last spot has alternately been Dead / Gone, Forked Bolt, Chain Lightning, etc. I cast Wild Slash to face for lethal once during the tournament, and I almost lived the Ferocious dream in the semis against my Grixis Delver opponent. He had a tapped Gurmag and an untapped TNN, while I had a Mandrills on the board with my hand as Bolt + Slash. I could have attacked, he would block with TNN, and I would Bolt + Slash the Angler - the TNN would die and he'd take 3 damage. Sadly none of this mattered because he Dismembered my monkey the turn before!

I agree that it seems like Tarmogoyf is the way forward. I'll probably try some combination of Bolt + SoFire + Tarfire and see how that works.

I gotta say, I'm going to miss the feeling of playing RUG Delver when it wasn't as well positioned in the meta. It always felt like people were rooting for you because everyone has a soft spot for the Goose. My friend describes it as being like the legacy family's crazy uncle - it used to be successful, the fell on hard times, but now it's trying to get back to its former glory and everyone cheers it on for doing its best :)

So is Goyf just not good enough anymore?

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Originally Posted by Tiberius42

So is Goyf just not good enough anymore?

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Goyf is a victim of drs. But this isnt the case anymore

I don't think that Goyf necessarily got killed by DRS: if you couldn't get rid of your opponent's DRS it made your entire deck bad (Wasteland, Daze, Mongoose, etc). The fact that it could shrink Tarmogoyf very rarely mattered in my experience.
Whether Goyf or Mandrills is the best choice largely depends on what kind of removal spells people are playing
If mirror turns out to be a frequent occurrence then people will probably find Goyf > Mandrills (or we start seeing SB Scavenging Ooze again).
Goyf is also way better vs Eldrazi
One of the biggest reasons for Mandrills was Trample vs Elves and presumably that matchup becomes much easier with no DRS

Wild Slash is/was a fine idea but the main points for it were
- You wanted a 1-mana instant to kill your opponents turn 1 DRS when you go first and don't have a play on turn 1
- You didn't want to play Seal of Fire to do this job because your deck didn't have Tarmogoyf and you didn't want to boost your opponent's ones
- You wanted the ability to go face with it

I don't disagree that all of these points are important but I'm skeptical that the prevention-block effect would come up more than paying the kicker on Burst Lightning

Now a significant part of what made seal of fire desirable (untargetable by DRS) is gone
I still think it's a better removal spell than Tarfire but being an instant to flip your Delver is also important
I would be more inclined to play a split of each now
Alternatively Chain Lightning or something else might be more appealing now that there isn't this strict need to kill an X/2 on turn 1 all the time, but I think Goyf sizing is still relevant

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I don't think that Goyf necessarily got killed by DRS: if you couldn't get rid of your opponent's DRS it made your entire deck bad (Wasteland, Daze, Mongoose, etc). The fact that it could shrink Tarmogoyf very rarely mattered in my experience.
Whether Goyf or Mandrills is the best choice largely depends on what kind of removal spells people are playing
If mirror turns out to be a frequent occurrence then people will probably find Goyf > Mandrills (or we start seeing SB Scavenging Ooze again).
Goyf is also way better vs Eldrazi
One of the biggest reasons for Mandrills was Trample vs Elves and presumably that matchup becomes much easier with no DRS

Wild Slash is/was a fine idea but the main points for it were
- You wanted a 1-mana instant to kill your opponents turn 1 DRS when you go first and don't have a play on turn 1
- You didn't want to play Seal of Fire to do this job because your deck didn't have Tarmogoyf and you didn't want to boost your opponent's ones
- You wanted the ability to go face with it

I don't disagree that all of these points are important but I'm skeptical that the prevention-block effect would come up more than paying the kicker on Burst Lightning

Now a significant part of what made seal of fire desirable (untargetable by DRS) is gone
I still think it's a better removal spell than Tarfire but being an instant to flip your Delver is also important
I would be more inclined to play a split of each now
Alternatively Chain Lightning or something else might be more appealing now that there isn't this strict need to kill an X/2 on turn 1 all the time, but I think Goyf sizing is still relevant

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Hi, it's very interesting. Do you still prefer seal of fire over tarfire only because it makes goyfs even bigger with enchantment ? (even if it's a great reason)
I've been very happy with seal of fire too, but i'm been playing a lot 1 dismember main. The only situation i was sad to have it in hand, it was when dismember was my only "burn" spell in hand and had to kill deathrite T1 with it.
If there are more tempo thresh and team america these days, i'll be even more happy to have dismember for other goyfs. Now maybe we won't see that many strix, so i'm thinking about : 4 bolts, 1 dismember, 1 seal or tarfire

I played a lot again D&T, and dismember is your only way maindeck to deal with sanctum prelate if you don't have counters anymore. And if you don't counter vial, you've lost, if mother is able to leave, you've lost...

//Artifact
1 Winter Orb

//Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

//Instant
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

//Sorcery
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Tarmogoyf
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Seal of Fire
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Submerge

This is an old list (July 2016), but it's a great starting point i think.

What i'm unsure about:

1. Maindeck Winter Orb / having three copies. Maybe the Miracles matchup is good enough even without Winter Orb, but depending on what else is played, you want Orbs anyway. I'd probably stick with the exact maindeck for now.

2. Three Pyroblasts. You might want to replace one with a Flusterstorm. Definitely don't trim Spell Pierces though.

3. Tarmogoyf vs. Hooting Mandrills. I would vastly prefer to play Mandrills because it's just so much better vs. pretty much all Chalice decks and, perhaps more importantly, combo. A case could be made for cutting the sideboard Tarmogoyf, but i'm not sure i'm comfortable going to eight creatures in matchups where you want to cut either Mongoose or Delver. I'll stick with three Goyfs for now.

4. Submerge. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. Can't tell for now.

5. What to replace Seal of Fire with. It really could be anything; Dead // Gone, Abrade, Vapor Snag, Forked Bolt, Blazing Volley, Electrickery, Rough // Tumble, Mind Harness or even the third Submerge.

6. How to find room for Gemstone Caverns. I don't think you want to go as far as running two copies for now, but i'm fairly certain you want at least one. I don't think you should add it before you know for sure what you can remove. Don't randomly cut things.

7. Do you want a second Surgical Extraction now? Maybe. But what i said about Caverns applies here as well: Wait a few days or weeks for the metagame to settle down a bit.

So to recap, i would play the same maindeck with this sideboard:

SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Tarmogoyf
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Abrade
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

Abrade is a flex slot; you should rotate through different removal spells to see what works. I'm going to start testing this list at some point in the next few days.

Edit: I could very well see LoamRing being amazing going forward. Keep that option in mind.

I think Goyf will definitely shine with DRS banned. Plus, six mainboard removal should be enough now, I personally have been playing seven. Most likely will stick with:

4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1 dismember

Without grixis in the meta, also considering MB Winter orbs, and going full mana denial. Just not sure if it's worth losing 2x counter slots, and they also don't flip delver.

My current Build is :

Main (60)

Creatures (12)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
4x tarmogoyf

Spells (30)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
2x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x dismember
1x tarfire

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)
2x REB
1x counterspell
1x flusterstorm
2x surgical extraction
1x grafdiggers cage
1x sylvan library
2x winter orb
2x ancient grudge
1x TNN
1x dismember
1x rough/tumble


Any suggestions appreciated. ;)

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Originally Posted by Starfouine

Hi, it's very interesting. Do you still prefer seal of fire over tarfire only because it makes goyfs even bigger with enchantment ? (even if it's a great reason)
I've been very happy with seal of fire too, but i'm been playing a lot 1 dismember main. The only situation i was sad to have it in hand, it was when dismember was my only "burn" spell in hand and had to kill deathrite T1 with it.
If there are more tempo thresh and team america these days, i'll be even more happy to have dismember for other goyfs. Now maybe we won't see that many strix, so i'm thinking about : 4 bolts, 1 dismember, 1 seal or tarfire

I played a lot again D&T, and dismember is your only way maindeck to deal with sanctum prelate if you don't have counters anymore. And if you don't counter vial, you've lost, if mother is able to leave, you've lost...

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The way Seal works where you can play it whenever you have a spare mana and then have a free shock up at any point for the rest of the game is very strong.

I agree that more Dismembers are potentially good, for non-1cmc removal options vs DNT I don't hate the idea of abrade either

@JA
1. From my perspective I would say that you seem to strongly overrate winter orb, every legacy deck is so efficient now, I agree that it's good against Miracles and other control decks (if such a thing even exists) but you were even recommending boarding it in vs like DNT and Eldrazi which in my experience has way too much chance of backfiring / not doing anything. I would play max 1 SB and that's it.
2. In my opinion playing more than 2 blasts is a specific anti-miracles stance, against prison/combo in general you would rather have pierce/fluster (SB counterspell is also an option but I don't think you want 2 in the 75)
3. Saying that Mandrils > Goyf vs Chalice decks is insane to me, Tarmogoyf is obviously stronger vs Eldrazi because it outsizes TKS and Smasher, and vs Moon Stompy Mandrills neatly dies to Chandra -3. I agree that being able to cast Mandrills for 1 mana makes it slightly better against combo but it's not ahead by much because sometimes being able to deploy Goyf earlier (and Goyf = more power = faster clock) is also relevant.
4. Never really liked this card, might be better now if there are more Goyf/Knight decks
5. I like Abrade and I also like the wide removal (Electrickery/Volley/Forked Bolt) because I expect an uptick in DNT and Elves loses a 2-toughness creature
6. This is a spicy idea but I am not on board, the decks this is seen in Modern have a use for colorless mana if you don't open with it
7. I think you needed 2 GY hate cards before, with DRS gone this seems even more necessary, if you weren't going to play Loam then I would consider Ground Seal but maybe this isn't worth it with no DRS (you could also play Scavenging Ooze SB in your Goyf slot)

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Stuff

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Welcome back, old friend!

Trying to keep this on topic: maindeck Winter Orb. Niiiiiiiiiice.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

1. From my perspective I would say that you seem to strongly overrate winter orb, every legacy deck is so efficient now, I agree that it's good against Miracles and other control decks (if such a thing even exists) but you were even recommending boarding it in vs like DNT and Eldrazi which in my experience has way too much chance of backfiring / not doing anything. I would play max 1 SB and that's it.

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I would tend to agree, despite loving Winter Orb. I played one in the board of BUG back in the day and had reasonable success with it in the hey-day of Miracles, although, what you mention is absolutely true. I even had games where Orb was almost as bad for me as it was for the opponent, yet they would almost have to continue to fight over it. This was mainly because of Top, which, now gone, half invalidates the point of Winter Orb, from the thinking that included it back then.

I wouldn't board it in vs D&T though as well, because as you mention it's as likely to backfire as it is to be useless, which leaves little room to really work. In the games where it would work, you'd probably have won anyway. Winter Orb is best where you are ahead on board and so can consolidate on your position. D&T runs both Vial to get around Orb almost totally and far more creatures to generally clog up the board making it hard to find a spot to actually play it profitably. The longer the game goes, the worse it will probably be for a Delver deck and better for D&T, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that Winter Orb makes cantrips pretty bad.

Putting it in versus Eldrazi seems more reasonable, since their velocity can be greater than ours, although, again, the issue of the state of the board can be a problem. In a perfect world, you'd have done something like Wasted their Cavern, Dazed something big, then land the Orb with them tapped out and something like a Delver on the board. By the time they could land another thing, you'd be far enough ahead to win through the big stupid things they'd eventually play. It's a bit of a long shot, but you have Brainstorm to shuffle away a dead copy. Last thing you want is to draw more though.

Hey everyone, I'm coming from Grixis, and have been playing RUG Delver the past few days. I'm excited to play nimble Mongoose and stifle! I have a question though:

In this new metagame, what are everyone's thoughts on how many tarmogoyf to play? I see a few lists varying between 2-4, as it's difficult sometimes when you want to leave up mana against combo, it being a 2 drop and all can clog up your hand if you draw it in multiples.

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Originally Posted by AdventuresWithTarmo

Hey everyone, I'm coming from Grixis, and have been playing RUG Delver the past few days. I'm excited to play nimble Mongoose and stifle! I have a question though:

In this new metagame, what are everyone's thoughts on how many tarmogoyf to play? I see a few lists varying between 2-4, as it's difficult sometimes when you want to leave up mana against combo, it being a 2 drop and all can clog up your hand if you draw it in multiples.

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You won't get a consensus answer on this

I played the full 4/4/4 Delver/Goose/Goyf
4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/TNN was also popular
For a while in the last format I played 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/Loam
And then JA in the last few posts has even recently suggested 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Goyf/WOrb
(Loam and Winter Orb are kind of like 'threats' because they are powerful sorcery-speed plays that increase your win% if they resolve, even if those cards themselves don't actually win the game)

Obviously JA seems to agree with your ideas about how Tarmogoyf can be bad, so he only plays 2 Tarmogoyf

Arguments for playing more/max copies of Tarmogoyf are
- Tarmogoyf is the best card vs Chalice decks and you want to draw as many as possible
- Tarmogoyf is king in the mirror and you want to draw as many as possible
- Tarmogoyf is a powerful proactive card so in some games rather than walking the tightrope of having to Stifle/Daze/Answer plays for many turns while spinning your wheels with cantrips trying to find a threat, you will have more success just jamming 1 or more Tarmogoyfs and quickly aggroing out your opponent. (This is the exact opposite of the 'play less Tarmogoyf' argument, "Too many threats" vs "No, not enough threats")

I'm still going to be playing 4/4/4 I think
I like playing 1 extra cantrip (Preordain) as a solution for the 'I don't want to draw too many X' problem rather than cutting Tarmogoyf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

You won't get a consensus answer on this

I played the full 4/4/4 Delver/Goose/Goyf
4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/TNN was also popular
For a while in the last format I played 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/Loam
And then JA in the last few posts has even recently suggested 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Goyf/WOrb
(Loam and Winter Orb are kind of like 'threats' because they are powerful sorcery-speed plays that increase your win% if they resolve, even if those cards themselves don't actually win the game)

Obviously JA seems to agree with your ideas about how Tarmogoyf can be bad, so he only plays 2 Tarmogoyf

Arguments for playing more/max copies of Tarmogoyf are
- Tarmogoyf is the best card vs Chalice decks and you want to draw as many as possible
- Tarmogoyf is king in the mirror and you want to draw as many as possible
- Tarmogoyf is a powerful proactive card so in some games rather than walking the tightrope of having to Stifle/Daze/Answer plays for many turns while spinning your wheels with cantrips trying to find a threat, you will have more success just jamming 1 or more Tarmogoyfs and quickly aggroing out your opponent. (This is the exact opposite of the 'play less Tarmogoyf' argument, "Too many threats" vs "No, not enough threats")

I'm still going to be playing 4/4/4 I think
I like playing 1 extra cantrip (Preordain) as a solution for the 'I don't want to draw too many X' problem rather than cutting Tarmogoyf

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Wow, that was very informative. Thank you! I might give the preordain idea a try. I suppose tarmogoyf is still able to be boarded out versus combo anyway (a couple copies)

Not having DRS anymore makes me look at this strategy much differently. Two drops are a lot riskier to play.

If you're looking for my opinion on Tarmogoyf, this recent article has you covered: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/...tled-unedited/. It also covers most other card choices, but note that it has not gone through any editing at all and i wrote it in one sitting. Several sections are not very articulate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

If you're looking for my opinion on Tarmogoyf, this recent article has you covered: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/...tled-unedited/. It also covers most other card choices, but note that it has not gone through any editing at all and i wrote it in one sitting. Several sections are not very articulate.

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It's not recent enough, as your article refers to probe and DRS, and your thoughts on Tarmogoyf consist completely of just "haha"...I don't feel like your article had me covered as far as an opinion of Tarmogoyf went.

I couldn't resist myself so I had to build this deck up again after I saw the Shaman ban. I had already given up to this format since everything I saw was only Miracles, Deathrite Shaman piles, staxes and turn one combos. I hope these bannings will open meta more once again.

What do you think about Zur's Weirding in a sideboard to fight meta filled with Miracles? I had it in my sideboard in a past but I never actually casted it. What does your sideboards look like? I don't exactly know how my local meta will look like so much (outside of some Miracle decks) so my sideboard is a bit all over the place:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Reveley
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mind Harness / Life from the Loam

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Originally Posted by hiski

I couldn't resist myself so I had to build this deck up again after I saw the Shaman ban. I had already given up to this format since everything I saw was only Miracles, Deathrite Shaman piles, staxes and turn one combos. I hope these bannings will open meta more once again.

What do you think about Zur's Weirding in a sideboard to fight meta filled with Miracles? I had it in my sideboard in a past but I never actually casted it. What does your sideboards look like? I don't exactly know how my local meta will look like so much (outside of some Miracle decks) so my sideboard is a bit all over the place:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Reveley
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mind Harness / Life from the Loam

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Many deck will board in REB to fight stifle/delver. It's a bad idea to fight red decks with blue cards. Winter orb takes care of the miracle mu.

I like the idea of destructive revelry, hiski. Ive seen a lot of rest in peace, blood moon and back to basics around. (Even though we can pyroblast BtB)

I know that rest in peace doesn't kill us, and we can even stifle the trigger, but it can strand tarmogoyfs and nimble mongoose (to a degree) in my hand. It's nice to have a disenchant effect.

Would just have to find room for it in the board. Currently my sideboard is:
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique

What is null rod for?

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

What is null rod for?

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You'll occasionally run into a heavy-artifact deck, but it's great against any deck that uses artifact mana (Storm -- LED and Lotus Petal) as well as any Stoneblade/equipment and/or Aether Vial deck. It's just a hard counter to all artifacts and doesn't tie your mana up any further like Ancient Grudge -- though you may still want some Grudges to deal with Chalice of the Void.

Nice to come back to a DRS-less Legacy (and Probe!) after taking an extended break. Both cards were getting stale.

Is there any Canadian thresh build with Young Pyromancer?

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Originally Posted by cheerios

Is there any Canadian thresh build with Young Pyromancer?

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I think there were only a couple of people who posted successful finishes with this
a) Without Therapy or Delve cards in RUG (some versions of RUG do play delve cards) there wasn't the same incentive to play Probe compared to Grixis, and Probe is one of the cards that made Pyromancer much stronger
b) You just don't have Therapy in your deck at all, which is another card that makes Pyromancer a lot better
c) The most common builds of Grixis didn't play Stifle. Pyromancer gets better when you can freely tap out chaining cantrips and not need to hold up mana for instants. (Cards like Stifle are also situational, so you might hold up blue mana and then not get to cast it, in which case you won't get any Elemental Token).
d) Many people played a configuration for the Grixis Delver pseudo-mirror that allowed you to board out Delver of Secrets and have all your threats be immune to Lightning Bolt. If you were playing additional 2/1 creatures this probably wouldn't be possible
e) *Extremely weak reason alert*: People sometimes played non-instant non-sorcery removal in the form of Seal of Fire to make Tarmogoyf stronger, which doesn't trigger YP

I think without Probe in the format we will start to see much less Pyromancer, period, and I don't think it's particularly good in RUG

Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.

Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?

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Originally Posted by hiski

Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.

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RUG is currently about 12% of the meta-game, according to all the post-ban metrics Ive seen. By contrast, Miracles is about 10% and Grixis Delver is about 4%. BUG isn't even in the main chart because it's under 3% meta game share.

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Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?

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It's actually more popular than both of them and the price of volcanics/trops has nothing to do with it. In a format like Legacy, people will play (competitively) what is winning and what they enjoy - price has never been a serious barrier to entry for the people who are into competitive legacy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hiski

Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.

Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?

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Looking at MTGGoldfish, from the 2 starcity classics and the 2 challenges since the unban it seems RUG is the most popular Delver variant (the only tournament that was the exception was the Atlanta Classic where Grixis was 1st and 9th and only 1 RUG in top 16 (3rd place). RUG was also 3rd at Worcester.

I think the main reason is that RUG just isn't much stronger than other decks in the same way that grixis delver was. There are other non-DRS decks that were fringe-playable in the DRS format that have also 'improved' (Stoneblade, DNT).

Possibly some people also have a kind of "yay now I can try whatever I want" and moved to try something else after an era of Delver being dominant for ages

I have an offer to get again (ouch) my set of goyf, do you recomend this deck nowadays?

I've been testing this list online:

Land [19]
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

Creature [13]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Snapcaster Mage

Spells [28]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt

Sideboard [15]
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
2 Winter Orb
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrade
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Null Rod
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Echoing Truth

It's a little bit more threat dense, and also plays one extra land to support TNN and SCM. Echoing Truth in sideboard has also been very useful against Empty the Warrens and Blood Moon.

I sleeved up good old Canadian for a LGS tournament yesterday. It was a ton of fun and I went 3-0-1

2-0 Lands
2-1 Dredge
1-1 Maverick
2-0 Miracles

Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Fire // Ice
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sylvan Library
1 Submerge

Takeaways:

Young Pyromancer is bad. I knew this before, but I wanted to confirm it. The rest of the main is great!

The TNN in side should be Clique, maybe I even want to play a second Clique instead of Null Rod. That depends on how much DnT I'm anticipating.

I'm undecided on Spell Pierce in side. I like that it can counter Artifacts, Enchantments and Planeswalker as well but maybe I just need Flusterstorm more for the important matchups (Miracles/Storm).

1 submerge is either way to less or far to much. I would love to play something else in this slot but I think it has to be blue. Maybe Vapor Snag or a second Fire//Ice? Has anybody experience with Dead//Gone?

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

I have an offer to get again (ouch) my set of goyf, do you recomend this deck nowadays?

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I think the answer is yes...go for it then...