[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by Hencules

All those cards are great indeed, but do somewhat decrease the value of our own Thalia. However, weathered wayfarer seems SO COOL! When I read your post I thought wayfarer only grabs basics, but it seems to take any land! This is huge, IMO. It allows for a whole new kind of land package.

I'll be testing that one for sure!

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I can't even wrap my head around how people get so excited over cards that were printed over 10 years ago and tested extensively since then. Wayfarer has been mentioned thousands of times across dozens/hundreds of decks (including D&T) and while it may have been viable at one point, in some decks, I don't see how it can be seriously considered at this point in time. D&T is a deck devoted to taxing and locking down the opponent, while building/protecting our board in an aggressive way; multiple turns are often spent Wastelanding, or Rishadan Porting our opponent, the likelihood that we'd have time to shift gears and make proper use of a card like Wayferer given this decks gameplan is just not realistic. You don't want to be dropping a Wayfarer T1, you'd rather a Mother or Vial, and after that you want to focus on your tax plan, so the only time you're going to be playing Wayfarer is if you happen to draw one with your Vial on 1, a value we rarely keep it on, or in the later game at which point the game should be more or less determined, as in we already have a lock and are dominating or our opponent slipped out of the lock and is dominating us. Drawing a Wayfarer at that point, playing it, waiting a turn, and then fetching what, a Wasteland? It's just not going to do much. On top of all that, the Wayfarers ability is CONDITIONAL.

I think you are very right. The card has been available for a long time. However, I just started playing this deck and though I have read quite a bit of the discussion online, not all previous lists have crossed my eyes. Your analysis of the problems Wayfarer poses to our own plan is very insightful, thanks!

Still, i'm going to try it since I like the idea.

Of course you should try it. It is great in certain circumstances. Unfortunately those circumstances tend to be the same ones the deck already thrives in. I certainly have not looked seriously at it in a few years. Just be aware that it was win-more when it was largely discarded as an option. If you find it digging you out of a loss instead, lets hear about it.🍭

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Originally Posted by Hencules

It does allow you to be controlling, right? Chaining wastelands seems awesome.

Testing time!

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You can also use the Wayfarer trick with your own Wastelands, not just fetches.

Always be willing to try new things, even in the most optimal decklist. You never know what you might discover. That's the fun of playtesting. Everyone has different playstyles, so what works or seems good for one person might not be for another person. But, in the same vien, coming into a thread and arguing adamantly that everyone's doing it wrong, especially without any playtesting, just does nothing for you but make people mad and/or annoyed at you.

I played classical maverick with wayfarer and topped one twice years ago. if wayfarer survives after turn one, it can easily beat any control deck, but I donnot see it can work in Death and taxes.

I have been interested in death and taxes for a long time, and I even tried to build one with green splash in the past. My main problem with this dech is how to improve the jund and nic fit (with burning wish)mu? It seems that Thomas only met one jund without punishing fire in the swiss, he might be a little lucky.

He got a little lucky in that sense. Even in the top 8, his hardest matchups were Merfolk and the mirror. But then he and Michael did a good job of calling the meta. Lots of RUG, SneakShow, BUG, and Miracles. I think most of us do well against Miracles, but those guys 5-0'd. Pretty crazy. (BTW, Maverick can't beat Miracles at all.)

But he also beat 12-Post, Jund, and Belcher. I think he got lucky against Belcher, but Jund and especially 12-Post are grindfests that truly test the meddle of the player. Those are the kinds of games that D+T noobs lose far more frequently than the best players. I don't think D+T is favored in either. Although he had Cataclysm and Mindcensors, and both those cards are great against 12-Post.

Hey guys,
Catmint recomended me to post in this threat. I have been reading a bit and I think soneone asked
for some results. I dont know if my list is what you guys are looking for, but I gonna post it with a mini-report of my victory in a 110 players tournament (LCL) last saturday.

My current list (a bit updated to metagame):

4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [A] Savannah
1 [U] Forest (3)

1 [7E] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [B] Birds of Paradise
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [JU] Sylvan Safekeeper
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace


Pairings and results:

R1: punishing jund 2-0
R2: esper blade 2-1
R3: goblins 2-0
R4: death and taxes 2-0
R5: sneak show 2-0
R6: merfolks ID
R7: red blade ID
Top8: merfolks 2-0
Top4: goblins 2-1
Final: RUG 2-0

The deck was really strong, just losing 2 games in the whole day.

Even supposing you don't want it for the mana accel, since Dryad Arbor turn 1 interfere with Wayfarer, I would still think you would want to fit in 1-2 GSZ; it can grab a Teeg, Safekeeper of Quirion Ranger, which you could cut to 1ofs, and also Ooze and Pridemage which are pretty useful hatebears to have access to.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Even supposing you don't want it for the mana accel, since Dryad Arbor turn 1 interfere with Wayfarer, I would still think you would want to fit in 1-2 GSZ; it can grab a Teeg, Safekeeper of Quirion Ranger, which you could cut to 1ofs, and also Ooze and Pridemage which are pretty useful hatebears to have access to.

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Green Sun's Zenith, Quirion Ranger, etc.? Despite their common roots, D&T and Maverick are different now. D&T, unlike Maverick, is a mana denial deck. Excepting Horizon Canopy, you can't just add green mana and hope to do the same things. The mana denial package is impossible if you add fetches and Savannahs. So I really think this conversation is better for this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-GW-x-Maverick

Hi guys,

Looong time since I've posted in a deck thread. Hope you've all been well.

I stepped out of playin MTG about 7 years ago, but started playing Legacy again in January '13. I've played Elves, then UR Delver, then UWr Miracle Control...and then I found the D&T deck.

I studied your posts and watched the videos of Strasbourg several times. I've been waiting for some of my cards to arrive, and was short by several. I had enough yesterday afternoon to put most of the deck together, but no time to goldfish it even once. But hey, it's a game, right? So I took it to the tourney last night...untested and never shuffled.

A player at our store who has been in a GP Top 8 and a SCG Top 8 asked to play before our tourney, and I jumped at the chance to try the deck out at least once before we started the real deal. I beat him. It felt great. The deck plays a lot like a prison/lock deck. I know someone here said it plays like Stax (Vintage), and I agree.

I used Thomas Enevoldsen's build but with the following changes (because my cards weren't here!):

He ran:
23 LANDS
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle

27 CREATURES
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mangara of Corondor
1 Fiend Hunter

4 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Swords to Plowshares

6 OTHER SPELLS
4 Æther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

SIDEBOARD
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gut Shot
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sunlance
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege

My list was:

23 LANDS
12 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dustbowl

25 CREATURES
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mangara of Corondor
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Leonin, Relic Warder

4 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Swords to Plowshares

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Æther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Elbrus, The Binding Blade
1 Sword of Body and Mind

SIDEBOARD
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Disenchant
2 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace

Elbrus was good, but I don't think he's worth running. He was the finishing swing against Stoneblade and a UB control deck though, and that was pretty cool. I didn't have my Flickerwisp's in time, and as
of today they're still not here. Sword of Body and Mind was great! Loved it every time I saw it, but it will come out when the other pieces get here.

When the Flickerwisps are here I will put them into the main and remove Leonin along with cards I've listed below. I may put him in the board, but I think I prefer Disenchant. We have one or two players dropping Topor Orbs for their Phyrexian Dreadnaught deck(s), and that card shuts down all of the "as enters play" abilities.

I think a third Mangara of Corondor would be amazing with a third Karakas. I would pull one of the Phyrexian Revokers to put him in, and I would remove 1 Plains for the third Karakas.

There has been some discussion on this forum about putting a lot green into this deck, but in my opinion the argument turns the deck into Maverick. I do agree that there could be a green splash, but for me it would be to replace 2 of my Plains with Savannahs and add 1 or 2 Gaddock Teeg to the main. Might need to replace 2 more Plains with Windswept Heaths. I think this could work very well, but I wouldn't make any other changes.

I had trouble against a 4 color Goyf-less Jund in the final round. Life from the Loam was a house against me, and he was able to Abrupt Decay x4 my Rest In Peace x 2, along with key creatures and Vials. He
had 1 Maze of Ith that won him the second game that we played after time was called. My Land Destruction and Mangara's didn't come up in time.

Dust Bowl is not worth a slot. I only played it because my 4th Rishadan Port was unavailable.

Even with a suboptimal build, I was undefeated going into the final round, which I lost to a 4-color Jund/Loam deck when we went to time in game 2. I'm happy with my 2nd place finish.

The fellow who won the tourney played a Lightning Greaves/Colossus/Infect artifact deck. I beat him in round three. He was not amused. LOL. But he took first place due to my 0-1-1 final last round.

...and in closing, my new list will be:

23 LANDS
11 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls

27 CREATURES
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter

4 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Swords to Plowshares

6 OTHER SPELLS
4 Æther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

SIDEBOARD
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Disenchant
2 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace

and if I ever splash green, it will be:

-4 Plains,

+2 Windswept Heath
+2 Savannah

-1 Fiend Hunter
-1 Flickerwisp

+2 Gaddock Teeg

Or perhaps +1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Fiend Hunter and another Teeg in the board. I don't know enough about the deck yet to be making sweeping changes...and YES, I think removing a Fiend Hunter and a Flickerwisp could be a sweeping change. Thomas finished #1 out of 1,365 players, and won a game where he survived a swing from Griselbrand and TWO swings from Emrakul. Truly amazing, and hard to argue with.

I hope this info is helpful. Your input has been extremely valuable for me!

Dave Hernandez

Personally, I'd rather cut a Crusader over a Revoker if you want that third Mangara. Revoker is always relevant and you are always going to want to see at least one in pretty much every game you play. Also, I feel that once you start playing with Flickerwisp that you will feel that it's one of, if not the, best cards in the deck.

Hey guys, I took D&T for the first time to a local small tournament. Only 16 paticipants, but very divers meta (Merfolk, Gobo, S&T, BUG, Maverick, Miracles, The Gate, ANT,...). It didn't went very good. I finished 1-3. List was the standard list -1 Canopy, +1 ORing MD.
R1 Painter 2-1
G1 T1 grindstone tells me what he is playing. In T3 he drops a Painter, but it eats a plow. From there on I take control with Thalia and Revoker.
G2 He drops T1 Painter and manages to keep my board clear. I die quickly to the combo.
G3 Is almost a copy of G1.
R2 ANT 1-2
G1 he starts and slowly sculpts his hand (didn't see a Waste or Port or Revoker the whole game). Around T5 he plays Massacre and combos.
G2 T1 Mother, T2 Thalia, T3 Revoker on LED, T4 Revoker on Petal.
G3 I mull to 5 (first hand 3 waste, no plains, following hand no land) and now it is going to be difficult. At the end of my T2 he bounces Thalia and combos.
R3 S&T 1-2
G1 he starts and drops Island, ponder. Another ANT? I play Mother. T2 he plays City of Traitors (AHA!!), S&T into Emrakul (I drop a land) and I hope to topdeck a Karakas or the ORing. Didn't happen...
G2 T1 Mother, T2 Revoker on Attack, T3 Thalia, T4 he plays S&T, but I have the ORing.
G3 see G1.
R4 Doran Junk 1-2
G1 he has a slew of Plows and drops a Knight with Mother as back-up. It slowly eats me alive.
G2 T1 Mother, T2 Thalia, T3 Crusader, T4 jitte spells doom for him.
G3 is a long game but in the end I die. I was stuck on 1 Plains, 1 Port & 1 Waste with in hand: Crusader x2, Mangara, Flickerwisp, Plow, Batterskull & Cataclysm. I played 3 Thalia and 1 Mindcensor in the whole game.

So, although I lost I had a blast playing the deck (except R4 G3) and I will continue playing it. Next stop: Bazaar of Moxes!

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Originally Posted by Zupponn

Personally, I'd rather cut a Crusader over a Revoker if you want that third Mangara. Revoker is always relevant and you are always going to want to see at least one in pretty much every game you play. Also, I feel that once you start playing with Flickerwisp that you will feel that it's one of, if not the, best cards in the deck.

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I think I will take this advice. Thanks.

Dave

David, it has been a heckuva long time since I have seen you post. Welcome back, and I hope you did not sell your cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

David, it has been a heckuva long time since I have seen you post. Welcome back, and I hope you did not sell your cards.

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Hey man! Yeah, it's been about 7 years since I've played. Hard to believe the time has gone by so fast. I was getting ready to sell my cards in January, when SpikeyMikey (Mike Torissi) mentioned there might be some Legacy going on locally. Sure enough, he was right, so I kept my stash. I'm still going to sell some cards, mostly Vintage (Mox Sapphire/Ancestral Recall/Time Walk) and maybe some Nether Voids/The Abyss and several other high priced cards I will never use. (I use the word "never" very loosely ... when I turn my head, there's a deck I want to play and I suddenly need to keep the cards that I didn't want...)

I've studied your articles and strategies for D&T...amazingly helpful! I did so well at the last tournament that many of the players are putting main deck hate in specifically for D&T and decks like it. Stone Blade players are putting Terminus in. LOL. I'm being told by a couple of the guys to watch out for Massacre, Torpor Orb, and Devastation Tide. There is a Stone Blade-style deck mixed with some Pox characteristics that has done very well. It's going to run Terminus now as well.

Because of D&T. LOL. And this is with several players snubbing their noses at the deck, telling me I got lucky, the deck is not consistent, and "why don't I play something good..." etc.

I'm thinking that if I'm going to have a chance against the sea of Terminus, etc., I'm going to need Gaddock Teeg. I put 2 in the main but may drop it to one withe the second in the board.

I've been looking for a 2 or 3 drop white creature that can take control of some of fatties, including Grisselbrand, Blightsteel Colossus, and Emrakul.

Then I remembered PREACHER.

Has anyone tried him? I've read the forum from page one, and looked at the available online Tournament-played deck lists, watched all the videos at least 2 or 3 times each, and never see Preacher. Maybe I just missed it...there are over 130 pages in this forum. Has it been tried and found to be suboptimal? Or is he just a forgotten? Or perhaps he will only be good in my area? I think he's worth a slot in the main an another in the board. I'm going to test him out if my order arrives in time, maybe two in the main and one in the board. Not sure what to take out for him though. Probably will drop to one Teeg and board the second Teeg.

I hate making changes like this to a deck I've only started playing, but I'm being targeted and have to have answers available. Here is my first attempt at a build for this coming Thursday.

23 LANDS
7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
1 Cavern of Souls

27 CREATURES
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (maybe 3 if I run 4 Phy Revoker?)
3 Phyrexian Revoker (Maybe 4 if I run 3 Thalia?)
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Preacher
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Swords to Plowshares

6 OTHER SPELLS
4 Æther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

SIDEBOARD
2 Preacher
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cataclysm
1 Inquisitor Exarch
1 Gut Shot
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Body and Mind

The deck is incredibly tight. I'm quite afraid of making a change that breaks it, but I know what I'm going to see at the tourney and need to prepare for that.

I would love to hear your thoughts...

Dave

Mangara can handle everything what Preacher also could and more.

You may want to put some Horizon Canopy in there, makes the splash for Teeg more smooth as well.

DavidHernandez,
I don't think you need Gaddock Teeg vs. Terminus. The trick is not to over extend vs. decks like UW Control. I recently took out all Serra Avenger from my list in favor of Mirran Crusader, and it clocks very well vs. UW Control, especially with either Jitte or SoFi equipped (I run the Jitte/SoFi/BSkull package). Mirran Crusader + SoFi is pretty insane because it has protection from all colors but white, can net in 12 points of damage he connects, and can net you two extra cards if your opponent managed to survive that swing.

I would not worry about DnT hate cards either. Believe me, as a Goblins player, hate cards like E. Plague comes in phase. Well, this is true for Legacy in general. There is probably a slight influx of players right now piloting DnT but the numbers will drop in a month or two, and the hate cards will leave.

Preacher is pretty interesting. I will need to check it out as a 1-off. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by L10

DavidHernandez,
I don't think you need Gaddock Teeg vs. Terminus. The trick is not to over extend vs. decks like UW Control. I recently took out all Serra Avenger from my list in favor of Mirran Crusader, and it clocks very well vs. UW Control, especially with either Jitte or SoFi equipped (I run the Jitte/SoFi/BSkull package). Mirran Crusader + SoFi is pretty insane because it has protection from all colors but white, can net in 12 points of damage he connects, and can net you two extra cards if your opponent managed to survive that swing.

Preacher is pretty interesting. I will need to check it out as a 1-off. Thanks.

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L10,

Thanks for the info. Over extending is...bad. I try not to do it, but a reminder never hurts. I'm going to have to invest in a SoFI. I only have SoBM.

Outside of Terminus, I'm not too scared of any non-creature spells. My creature fears center around the decks running Artifact creatures. They typically have only one creature on the table at any time, but that creature is a Phyrexian Dreadnought or a Blightsteel Colossus. That's why I thought Preacher could work for me. Even if my opponent has a Welder or second Dreadnaught, I could potentially Flickerwisp or Swords or Maranga one, then steal the other.

Having piloted UW and UWr Miracle control, I have an unhealthy fear of Terminus. I'm also trying to find a way around Torpor Orbs, as I mentioned previously. I suppose we can't defend against "everything" out there. Maybe sometimes we just have to lose. But I'd rather find a platinum toothpick and stick it in my opponents eye -- and win. Just need to find that toothpick....

Would you mind sharing the list where you ran Serra Avengers? I have four of those and don't run them due to rolling with Mirran Crusaders.

Thanks for the input, I will take it to heart and run some tests.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

Frontline Medic does not really do what the deck needs. But I have not tested it either.

Someone over at Salvation mentioned Cursed Scroll. I was hoping to get some opinions on this.

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I used to play Cursed Scroll in mono-red and it was fabulous. I've been considering it for D&T because I want a direct damage source. I think it can work, but the activation cost (3) is very high. It could cost you the ability to Port lands or pull other tricks. On it's face it looks good but may not be good enough.

I've been considering the following cards for the sideboard:

tower of the magistrate
cursed scroll
aeolipile
inquisitor exarch
preacher
razortip whip
ensnaring bridge
scepter of empires
soul sculptor

I don't know if any of these are good enough, but I was researching to see how I could deal 1 or 2 damage on a regular basis to apply more pressure. I lost a game (and the match) because I was unable to deal 1 point of damage to my opponent. I also see the big artifact creatures hurting me...a lot....

I think Razortip Whip and Scepter of Empires would prove better than Cursed Scroll due to the lower cost of use, and the guarantee of dealing damage vs the sometimes-random nature of Cursed Scroll. I like the Scepter because you only pay for it once. Everything after casting it, including the turn it comes out, is tap-deal-damage. I have a couple on order and hope they get here by Thursday, as it's at the top of my list.

I don't think Tower of the Magistrate is going to see any space in my list because it's so specific.

Inquisitor Exarch is interesting, and may find a place, but probably not if I go with the Scepter.

Dave

Yeah sure, I pretty much piloted the same standard list since the printing of Thalia.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
11 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Nothing fancy. I just stick with what works. I do own a set of Horizon Canopies but I had never been impressed by them. My meta has Dragon Stompy (Moon) and Burn (Price of Progress) pilots, so non-basic lands can be a liability. My current list is -1 Karakas, -4 Serra Avenger, +1 Plains, +4 Mirran Crusader. Mirran Crusader has been really good to me since the printing of Deathrite Shaman. I tried playing a set of Mirran Crusaders (effectively raising the CMC requirement of the deck) with a set of Karakas, but it feels awkward when I can't hit the third land drop at a timely fashion when I have an extra Karakas at hand. Replacing one Karakas with a Plains seems reasonable.

I don't think Preacher is good against MUD because they can just as easily give you a Hellbent Metalworker or Mishra's Factory. Preacher may be good against Dreadstill, but it may not be necessary. We have StP, Mangara, and Flickerwhisp to deal with it, and even more options post-board. However, I do the like idea of using Preacher to steal a creature, having the prisoner commit suicide during combat, rinse and repeat until Preacher is answered. I doubt it will play out like that though.

Against Torpor Orbs, just side in some Disenchants or O-Rings. Mangara can take care of it too. Torpor Orb is pretty bad, but it is not the end. I almost cried when a Stiflenaught pilot cast Torpor Orb vs. my Goblins deck. Tin Street Hooligan can't destroy it, Stingscourger is a 2/2 with Echo for 2, MWM is a 1/1 with Echo for 2, SGC lost its 3 buddies, Matron is a 1/1 for 3, and Ringleader is a 2/2 haste for 4. Now thinking back, I think I did shred a single drop of tear. I had never seen a Torpor Orb since, to be honest.

Edit:

Oh, and with my Crusader build, I had been substituting the 4th Mirran Crusader with a Linvala, Keeper of Silence. She has been a pretty good hatebear against a good number of decks, including DnT mirror matches. You should try her out too.

With 4 revokers MD, you just eat metalworker like breakfast. Pin the worker, then forgemaster, then they die.

I may put Ankh of Mishra in the main, just to piss people off.

- Wasteland that.
- Port that.
- Ankh of Mishra
- Port that. And that.
- Mangara your land and port that and port that.
- Are you sure you want to drop that land, cuz you're at ... 2.

LOL.

Ok, that's mostly a joke. But maybe it would be a great 2 drop instead of Cursed Scroll and Scepter of Empires and other stuff, while stopping Punishing Fire/Life From the Loam/Lands decks in their tracks.

I'm posting from a cell phone and the forum won't allow me to edit my previous post. Now that I think of it, Ankh of Mishraand Flickerwisp are a good combo. Maybe there is some potential here for the side board, or even the main, if you're looking for more pressure on the opposing Mana Base.

Edit: Hey, in playing this deck in the last tournament, I found that Aven Mindcensor seemed expensive an sub-optimal. Why are we running this instead of Leonin Arbiter's? Arbiter seems stronger, cheaper, easier to cast, and his ability shuts people down. He comes down turn 2 or 3 instead of 3 or 4. Maybe Mindcensor in the board instead?

Also, I ran 2 Preacher in the board. He came down against RUG Delver and Stoneblade. You should have seen the looks on the players' faces. I still laugh about it. They said..."Um, what is that?" Then, "oh, so we end up swapping creatures?" and then "Huh??? You get my creature and I get nothing?" RUG Delver had 2 Goyf's and a Flipped Delver. Stoneblade had a Germ with Batterskull. Preacher got killed, but that kept Mom and Mirran Crusaders alive. There was never a bad creature for Preacher to take. I may play 3 in the board next time as he seemed really strong. I may even try him in the main.

As for the green splash, I ran 1 Gaddock Teeg in the main and 1 in the board. I loved him in the deck. I ran 2 Savannah and 1 Windswept Heath. I liked the Savannah's but hated the Heath. This deck never seems to need fetches, and with Mindcensor and/or Arbiter, it's just stupid to run it. Teeg made it to the battlefield three times, once with Savannah and twice with Vial. He shut down 2 decks for me.

I tried Leonin Arbiter when it was first released in a few local tournaments. It's too easy to play around. Out of maybe 7 rounds, I was only able to flash it in with Aether Vial ONCE to actually stop a fetchland activation from working. He doesn't have built-in flash so he cannot surprise your opponents without Aether Vial, and the 2 mana penalty is much easier to play around than Aven Mindcensor's ability. I do not recommend Leonin Arbiter.

I feel that Aven Mindcensor is a sideboard card. Leonin Arbiter has the problem of being best against the decks we are already strong against. Also, Aven Mindcensor and Cataclysm fill a similar role. I have a hard time deciding between the two.

Hi D&T people, I don't mean to entirely derail the conversation, but I'm considering building this deck mostly from scratch. I'm in grad school, so as soon as I have one of those "jobs" I keep hearing about (and after they pay me real money), I'd like to start a new deck. I've been playing Legacy since 2008 and I have Merfolk, RUG, and Team America all built (current versions). Basically, that means I have 4 vials, 4 wastelands, and some sideboard action here and there. I'm wondering what's the longer-term outlook for this deck? People who have been playing D&T for years, what has your experience been? This deck just looks really cool and I'd like to try something non-blue for the hell of it. Should I go out and buy D&T cards or should I consider something else non-blue, like gobbos or Nourishing Lich (jk on that last one).

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

Seems like you have everything but ports and Karakas that are really valuable lol. Which is still like 600 bucks... But Still.

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Originally Posted by atropos

Hi D&T people, I don't mean to entirely derail the conversation, but I'm considering building this deck mostly from scratch. I'm in grad school, so as soon as I have one of those "jobs" I keep hearing about (and after they pay me real money), I'd like to start a new deck. I've been playing Legacy since 2008 and I have Merfolk, RUG, and Team America all built (current versions). Basically, that means I have 4 vials, 4 wastelands, and some sideboard action here and there. I'm wondering what's the longer-term outlook for this deck? People who have been playing D&T for years, what has your experience been? This deck just looks really cool and I'd like to try something non-blue for the hell of it. Should I go out and buy D&T cards or should I consider something else non-blue, like gobbos or Nourishing Lich (jk on that last one).

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

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Well, as mentioned, Rishadan Ports and Karakas are where your money will go. You can do the version with 3 Karakas but you really need 4 Ports. On TCGplayer you can still find Karakas for $72 if you're willing to buy moderate to heavily played cards. Ports will run you about $33. I'll bet you could buy those 7 cards for under $400. The other stuff is really inexpensive, by which I mean you're looking at 20 cents to $10 per card. Figure if you have $500 right now to invest, you could build this deck in a week.

Oh, you will also be looking at putting money into Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Umezawa's Jitte if you don't own them. SoFI is about $25, as are Jitte's. Batterskull is cheaper. I don't own a SoFI and have been running Sword of Body and Mind. I'm going to swap it out for a Sword of War and Peace this week. This is just a play-style choice though. I like milling people's libraries because it pisses them off. I also enjoy dealing damage to people who horde cards in their hand. I also see a lot of Swords to Plowshares and big Black creatures, so I like the protection from White/Black from SoWP. With a couple of our locals playing RUG Delver, I also like the pro Green/Blue the SoBM gives. That being said, buy the cards that are in the basic lists on this forum, which means SoFI and Jitte.

I know you asked for comments from people who have played this deck "for years," so take what I'm about to say with both caution and a grain of salt, but I'm having a blast playing this deck. I'll be piloting it for the 3rd time this coming Thursday. It's interesting, it's clever, people don't really know how to play around it, and the toolbox it offers you lets you come up with creative/cool ways to use your brain. It works well against the field of current decks, and it will give you a "go to" deck when you want to surprise your opponents while still having a chance to finish in first place.

I highly recommend you watch the videos from Strasbourg so you can see how the deck plays out. I've watched each match several times and I still get a kick out of how well the deck runs.

Make sure you play the deck as listed and don't go making changes! I playtested some changes at an actual tournament and was sorry I did, specifically the inclusion of Windswept Heath. You don't need fetch lands in this deck.

I hope you build it. I think you will be very pleased and surprised at how much fun it is to run.

Dave

I have a question too for the experienced D&T players. In which matchups do you side in the cataclysm? I've seen Michael Bonde side it in in the mirror but isn't that really risky since if your opponent has a vial out the card loses it value.

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

(very helpful observations)

I hope you build it. I think you will be very pleased and surprised at how much fun it is to run.

Dave

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Thanks dude, I really appreciate the feedback. I do actually have Jittes, I forgot to mention that one. Crazy that Ports are nearly the same price as Wastelands now, I didn't realize how much they went up. I might start with 3 Karakas, that was a particularly helpful suggestion, along with the meta-dependent Sword of X&Y. I watched the D&T Strasbourg match, and was also amazed at the deck's dynamism.

So that brings me to a follow-up question: what are the deck's poor matchups? I suppose I can already guess Belcher, High Tide, and the other combo usual suspects. Thalia helps, but a deck that wins on turn 4 might give D&T some trouble.

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Originally Posted by atropos

Thanks dude, I really appreciate the feedback. I do actually have Jittes, I forgot to mention that one.

So that brings me to a follow-up question: what are the deck's poor matchups? I suppose I can already guess Belcher, High Tide, and the other combo usual suspects. Thalia helps, but a deck that wins on turn 4 might give D&T some trouble.

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Wastelands are even more now. Close to $50 each if you want them in decent shape (lightly played). Here is Finn's primer on matchups. If you haven't seen it, it's super helpful. He has back to back posts, and the second one has the matchup listing...but read both:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

And here is an article he posted in August:

http://southfloridamagic.com/archive...s-the-new-blue

I had some trouble racing with RUG Delver. The turn-1 Delver followed by turn-2 flip for a flying 3/2 was tough, followed by Goyf, Goyf, Mongoose....and I lost the match.

Dave

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

I ran 2 Savannah and 1 Windswept Heath. I liked the Savannah's but hated the Heath. This deck never seems to need fetches, and with Mindcensor and/or Arbiter, it's just stupid to run it.

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Mindcensor only affects your opponent, not yourself.

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Originally Posted by Kl'rt

Mindcensor only affects your opponent, not yourself.

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And so it does! I misspoke. Thanks!

That being said, every time I had the Heath in my hand I HATED it and wished it were a regular, plain old Plains. Every time.

Dave.

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Originally Posted by Dia_Bot

I have a question too for the experienced D&T players. In which matchups do you side in the cataclysm? I've seen Michael Bonde side it in in the mirror but isn't that really risky since if your opponent has a vial out the card loses it value.

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For the mirror, I usually wouldn't side it in, unless you're certain you can acrue a better advantage (basically, if you play first, and need to take out Thalias that are still lurking around).
What I've traditionally brought it in against are decks who we tops rock better than (BUG, Stoneblade, Miracles*, Jund, Mud). I'm going to be firm on my position that cataclysm is the best sideboard card in the deck. It's a fix all, not a win-more.

Anyhow, against slower decks/against decks for the WOG effect matters (I have actually sided it in against belcher as an out to empty, however slim my chances are).

It's a very versatile piece of hate in the right hands, but casting time is crucial

The Cataclysm question is something I'm interesting in discussing as well.

Many years ago it was a maindeck card. Then it moved to sideboard. I used it to completely destroy an elves player once.

Then it disappeared entirely... and now it's back. I'm not really sure I understand why.

I definitely wouldn't side it in against the mirror, but I'm not sure what to take out for matchups against BUG, BUG, Stoneblade, Miracles*, Jund...

Shinwei, the format seems to needs a fair number of decks that seek to have a board presence for Cataclysm to punish enough decks to be worth it. When Tarmo came out (2007!), it narrowed Legacy an awful lot. Amongst others, Enchantress, Stax, and Landstill all went away. Even Goblins took a back seat where it remains. In their place, we got lots of similar decks that all played aggro-control. As a general rule of thumb, the more a deck looks and plays like aggro-control, the worse Cataclysm is against it. With the rise of Miracles, Elves!, and 12Post, as well as a few of the stragglers from before (Merfolk and Goblins come to mind), Cataclysm has begun to look good again. One final note, 12Post and Elves are two of this deck's three worst matchups while both Goblins and Merfolk have gotten harder over the years. So, the card looks fabulous right now.

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

Wastelands are even more now. Close to $50 each if you want them in decent shape (lightly played). Here is Finn's primer on matchups. If you haven't seen it, it's super helpful. He has back to back posts, and the second one has the matchup listing...but read both:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

And here is an article he posted in August:

http://southfloridamagic.com/archive...s-the-new-blue

I had some trouble racing with RUG Delver. The turn-1 Delver followed by turn-2 flip for a flying 3/2 was tough, followed by Goyf, Goyf, Mongoose....and I lost the match.

Dave

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Excellent, I'll do my homework and read up on these primers. Thanks guys!

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Originally Posted by Finn

Shinwei, the format seems to need a fair number of decks that seek to have a board presence for Cataclysm to punish enough decks to be worth it. When Tarmo came out (2007!), it narrowed Legacy an awful lot. Amongst others, Enchantress, Stax, and Landstill all went away. Even Goblins took a back seat where it remains. In their place, we got lots of similar decks that all played aggro-control. As a general rule of thumb, the more a deck looks and plays like aggro-control, the worse Cataclysm is against it. With the rise of Miracles, Elves!, and 12Post, as well as a few of the stragglers from before (Merfolk and Goblins come to mind), Cataclysm has begun to look good again. One final note, 12Post and Elves are two of this deck's three worst matchups while both Goblins and Merfolk have gotten harder over the years. So, the card looks fabulous right now.

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^^^ Yes to all of this!

Sinwei, I'll comment on Elves! because my local meta has a couple of players running this every week. Elves! builds run Gaddock Teeg in the Board, so keep a Flickerwisp/Mangara/STP available to blow him away so you can cast the Cataclysm. I don't see Flickerwisp as a good option because you would need 7 mana to get anything done, unless you have a Vial on 3. Just something to keep in mind. I hate getting shut down by Teeg, though it's less of a concern running D&T since Cataclysm is the only 4-cast spell. Still, I saw Teeg in the Main deck of a Jund/Loam build that was tough to beat. He pulled it for game 2. I never saw my Cataclysm (sadness...it would have helped...).

Dave

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

^^^ Yes to all of this!

Sinwei, I'll comment on Elves! because my local meta has a couple of players running this every week. Elves! builds run Gaddock Teeg in the Board, so keep a Flickerwisp/Mangara/STP available to blow him away so you can cast the Cataclysm. I don't see Flickerwisp as a good option because you would need 7 mana to get anything done, unless you have a Vial on 3. Just something to keep in mind. I hate getting shut down by Teeg, though it's less of a concern running D&T since Cataclysm is the only 4-cast spell. Still, I saw Teeg in the Main deck of a Jund/Loam build that was tough to beat. He pulled it for game 2. I never saw my Cataclysm (sadness...it would have helped...).

Dave

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You can also return Gaddock Teeg to the Elves player's hand with Karakas eot the turn before you cast Cataclysm.