All B/R update speculation.

First one to call this card. Sorta like Yawmoth's Will/Show and Tell but not quite since replaying the winning spell costs nothing and it doesn't require specific cards in order to win. Show and Tell > perm can be dealt with by means outside of blue spells.

Example this hand:
Mizzix's Mastery, Enter the Infinite, Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Simian Spirit Guide, Force of Will, blue card.

turn 1 - Draw, discard Enter the Infinite
turn 2 - Play Tomb, Petal, SSG > cast Mastery

All we needed was 3R + discard phase. It's fairly easy to go off of a single Careful Study. 3R + U is cheap for something that wins on the spot.

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Originally Posted by death

First one to call this card. Sorta like Yawmoth's Will/Show and Tell but not quite since replaying the winning spell costs nothing and it doesn't require specific cards in order to win. Show and Tell > perm can be dealt with by means outside of blue spells.

Example this hand:
Mizzix's Mastery, Enter the Infinite, Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Simian Spirit Guide, Force of Will, blue card.

turn 1 - Draw, discard Enter the Infinite
turn 2 - Play Tomb, Petal, SSG > cast Mastery

All we needed was 3R + discard phase. It's fairly easy to go off of a single Careful Study. 3R + U is cheap for something that wins on the spot.

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How does Enter the Infinite win on the spot without Omniscience in play? Play enough Lotus Petals/Guides into an actual wincon? Like Lab Maniac + Brainstorm?

Edit: I'd need to see such a deck in action first, but having to use the GY is a major hindrance to be broken. DRS is a major player in the format and every deck could run Surgical Extraction in the board.

Might be a (very) good deck, depending on the build, but broken? I'm quite sceptical.

How is that more broken than T1 - Chrome Mox, Petal, Dark Ritual, Balustrade Spy, win?

Lands, I guess.

Less glass cannony with ways to manipulate draws, run tutors, support countermagic and outs to DRS.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Lands.

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Island.

If natural discard is your out you're a turn 2 combo deck at best. If the top 8 cards aren't the nuts, then you need to fiddle with cantrips and shit to get there. You have FOW protection but how is this better than a deck like TES that runs discard spell for protection instead, still runs cantrips and outs to DRS/GY hate, and can kill you turn 3 very consistently?

Want to show it's banworthy? Prove it in a large tournament. Other than that, why talk about it?

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Originally Posted by death

Less glass cannony with ways to manipulate draws, run tutors, support countermagic and outs to DRS.
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The enter the infinite lists still look like bad reanimator decks to me.

Those decks operate quite differently and have problems of their own, it will be a lengthy discussion if we start comparing +/-'s. Not stating anyone else's deck here is bad. The point I was making is how relatively easy it is to pilot MM and win with just :3::r: requirement.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

If natural discard is your out you're a turn 2 combo deck at best.

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It can do turn 1.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

You have FOW protection but how is this better than a deck like TES that runs discard spell for protection.

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Because Force of Will > discard. Brainstorm > discard.

You can talk all you want. I don't know why we're discussing it here when the card has been out for 5 days and had no chance to be proven at all.

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Originally Posted by rufus

The enter the infinite lists still look like bad reanimator decks to me.

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Agreed.

I think that if this card is going to make a splash in legacy it's going to be in some red focused storm deck, not as a two card comb.

I also think it's premature to be talking about a card that's been out all of 5 days.

A red storm deck will suck ass and fare worse than the current iterations of Storm, it's going to be precisely the reason Mastery won't get banned.

That said, there's currently a thread in the Developmental section about the Enter the Infinite combo if anyone is interested.

So, 2015... Miracles has won 2 out of 3 Legacy GPs and has consistently been a, if not the, top performer. Yesterday there were 11 Miracles decks in the top-32 which comes to a pretty insane 34 %. I'm not usually one for bangin' the drums to get stuff banned, but is it time something was nerfed with this deck? And yes, I know Miracles isn't thisomnipresent at all tournaments but it's at least worth discussing.

I'd personally prefer a potential ban to not be Top as that card branches out to a variety of decks. Counterbalance on the other hand... remove Counterbalance and Miracles gets nerfed (maybe down to tier 2) but not destroyed and - at least off the top of my head - no other decks suffer directly.

What do people think the format would look like without Miracles? Do you feel that numbers aside, the format would benefit from its loss?

Personally, I don't.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

So, 2015... Miracles has won 2 out of 3 Legacy GPs and has consistently been a, if not the, top performer. Yesterday there were 11 Miracles decks in the top-32 which comes to a pretty insane 34 %. I'm not usually one for bangin' the drums to get stuff banned, but is it time something was nerfed with this deck? And yes, I know Miracles isn't thisomnipresent at all tournaments but it's at least worth discussing.

I'd personally prefer a potential ban to not be Top as that card branches out to a variety of decks. Counterbalance on the other hand... remove Counterbalance and Miracles gets nerfed (maybe down to tier 2) but not destroyed and - at least off the top of my head - no other decks suffer directly.

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I have a problem with a "best deck" when there is no way to fight it effectively. There are good ways to fight Miracles: choke, pithing needle, v. clique, null rod, punishing fire, abrupt decay, etc. There are also good decks with positive match ups against it: AggroLoam and Shardless.

There will always be a best deck. I don't feel like it's more oppressive than any other best deck.

Ban Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor. Unban Survival of the Fittest, Earthcraft, Hermit Druid, Frantic Search and Mind Twist.

Miracles.dec is what's keeping creature-based and variations of control decks from becoming viable.

I'm on board with Top being banned. Miracles is easily the top performer for the last 2 years or so and is pretty oppressive. Over 15 rounds, I have to imagine it adds at least an hour to every tournament if not more.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

What do people think the format would look like without Miracles? Do you feel that numbers aside, the format would benefit from its loss?

Personally, I don't.

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The format would open up a whole lot if Miracles didn't exist.

I know everone wants to target SDT, and maybe that is what will get the Axe, but I would rather see either Terminus or Counterbalance go.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

I'm on board with Top being banned. Miracles is easily the top performer for the last 2 years or so and is pretty oppressive.

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I just glanced at MTG top8, and looked over the five most recent major events they list. There are six occurances of Miracles, none in first.

Also, anytime I've looked at data, I've found the percent of Miracles decks in the top brackets is roughly proportional to the percent of Mracles decks in the entire field (at least day two, never seen data for day one). On Reddit, a user had catalogued all matches and SCG event (I think day 2 only) between the TC ban and early August, and Miracles has only a 52% win-rate over 675 matches.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...es_12415_8215/

I think your sense of 'oppression' is rather quaint.

Also, two years? Can we really include data from the TC era and expect our findings to be relevant in today's meta?

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Originally Posted by death

Miracles.dec is what's keeping creature-based and variations of control decks from becoming viable.

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Eh? Lecgacy is teeming with aggro/control and creature decks. But it has just a few competitive creature-lite decks; Storm, Lands, and Miracles.

Yeah I think people really underrate the 'what proportion of people are showing up with this deck' factor when they look at results - and that's usually hard to know. Miracles is not unbeatable, it is the best control deck and control players are going to want to play the best pure control deck. It is also generally accepted to be the hardest deck to pilot and something with game against almost anything, which are also things that are going to attract a lot of good players. Good players playing good decks should be expected to do well in a tournament.

If we were to look at what % of players at a legacy event show up with a pure control deck, I wouldn't be surprised if that number were *lower* than its equivalent in most standard metas because legacy's meta is so wide in comparison, and most of the less played played decks are not control.

That said, I think Top is not a card particularly well designed for tournament play. I actually enjoy playing vs Miracles in non-competitive tournament settings, where my opponent can make more optimal decisions and I don't have to worry about them playing slow if they win g1. But it's kinda dumb to have a single card that wrecks so much havoc on every single organized legacy tournament's operations.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

I'd personally prefer a potential ban to not be Top as that card branches out to a variety of decks. Counterbalance on the other hand... remove Counterbalance and Miracles gets nerfed (maybe down to tier 2) but not destroyed and - at least off the top of my head - no other decks suffer directly.

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If anything gets the axe, it would be Top, based on past situations, mainly due to the durdle factor. Splash damage would be neglectable since the rest of the decks only take a laughable percentage of the metagame. That's like arguing that you can't ban Mental Misstep because it made Zoo viable again.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

What do people think the format would look like without Miracles? Do you feel that numbers aside, the format would benefit from its loss?

Personally, I don't.

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The loss of Miracles itself would already be a huge boon to the format. Super-Wraths for :w: at potentially instant speed are beyond dumb and one of the major stifling influences in the format development.

Where would the format be without Miracles? Probably in a spot with alot more Elves!, but who knows.