All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

That's not really true.

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Citation required.

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Originally Posted by Deckerator

Maybe it is time to unban a card that has a little more impact on legacy than the last few unbanned cards.

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They won't. They kept Black Vise and Worldgorger on it for so long, even though fucking Griselbrand was deemed fine I just don't see anything changing.

Here's the list for the lazy

Mind Twist - When is this ever going to be better than Hymn to Tourach. Hint, rarely ever.
Earthcraft - I don't know shit, nor do i care about elves, but I think Julian said he wouldn't care about it so that's fine enough with me.
Survival - Probably too degenerate, but a lot of cards have been printed since it was banned that could keep it in check (Decay, Revoker, Rest in Peace). Also the format is much faster than it was back in 1934 or whenever it was that Survival was banned.
Frantic Search- Give high tide a break, the poor saps still grinding along with it deserve somthing.
Goblin Recruiter- Maybe Goblins elevate back to tier 2 from tier 400, maybe Food Chain-Gobs ruin the format. I somehow doubt Goblins would ever become a DTB but either way, Goblins players definitely deserve something after all the bullshit they've had to endure for the past 5 years.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Citation required.

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http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Ti...d_restrictions

Must've been hard.

So in the history of Legacy we have only two times (September 09, June 12) seen cards unbanned in a non prisoner exchange situation. Every other time we have seen something off the list (June 07, June 10, December 10, January 15 and September 15) we have seen an exchange. Also the last time they unbanned a card (Land Tax, woop) without banning something was 3 years ago...

Sorry mate, it's true, these days they don't just unban things, they exchange them.

Vise, Dragon, they where worthless and people knew it. It's not even an exchange at this point. "Sure, we will take the automatic rifle off you, hear is a roll of toilet paper and an empty pen tube."

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Sorry mate, it's true, these days they don't just unban things, they exchange them.

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From a scientific standpoint, this is a highly inaccurate statement to conclude from the tiny sample size of bannings/unbannings we have seen.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

From a scientific standpoint, this is a highly inaccurate statement to conclude from the tiny sample size of bannings/unbannings we have seen.

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Well if we where going to go always by the numbers, Brainstorm would always be in first place of the top five cards Wizards writes about after each GP.

No, Fetchlands would. But that would be a pretty boring story.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Well if we where going to go always by the numbers, Brainstorm would always be in first place of the top five cards Wizards writes about after each GP.

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Except said writers don't do it because they don't want Brainstorm banned. (yes, that's actually the sad reality)

I don't think that that's the reason. At least we have no reason to assume that when it seems much more likely, that it would just be plain boring to put the most palyed cards at the top of those lists.

What you wanna do put there are the cards that tell a story, cards that actually do something instead of cantrips. It's not about being a quantitative analysis of the meta; it's about being entertaining.

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

One of 12 Posts weaknesses is that Miracles can and often does have Blood Moon in the SB... (To be clear, I think you are right that 12 Posts has a pretty good Miracles Matchup)

I would think that MUD has an OK matchup as well. MUD is weaker to Swords and Terminus though. Maybe New MUD with Ugin is the savior we've been looking for...:eyebrow:

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Landstill is the Miracles killer. MUD is pretty good too.

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Originally Posted by keys

Landstill is the Miracles killer. MUD is pretty good too.

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So is Enchantress - Basically all Big Mana decks.

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

Wining over 50% of the time against the field is actually really good. Most decks have a much more sinusoidal win rate curve*... (I just made this up on the spot so... uh... hold on for a second as I explain what I mean....)

*If you were to plot the win rate out of 100% on the Y axis and all the decks in the meta on the X axis, most decks would have some highs and some lows. For example Imperial Painter has a really bad Burn Matchup. Like Win 5%, Lose 95%, but a really good Lands matchup Win 85%, Lose 15%. Of course those are the extremes and some match-ups are closer to 55,45, and 50,50 etc.

I suspect if you created a chart like this (access to data is a problem...) and compared Miracles to other legacy decks you'd find Miracles doesn't have the highest win % against any deck in the meta, but has fewer extreme highs and and extreme lows... meaning that on average it performs above the curve and is more consistently good against the meta then average. (This is what makes it a top tier deck and I'd expect this to be true of all the top tier to some extent with perhaps a few more spikes)...

To put this another way... if you know the meta had an extreme amount of miracles (6 out of 9 matches), what deck would you play because it gives you a slam dunk win against Miracles...? (Expected win rate of 80% of the time against Miracles..?)

Is there a deck that wins more then 75% of the time against Miracles?

TL;DR

IMO: If one deck doesn't have any really bad matchups it's likely not healthy for the meta because the meta game is solved.



Does Lands not have to worry about Bloodmoon?

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12post

Yeah i see it that Wizards often bans and unbans in the same step.
Here is my list of the cards i would like to see unbanned:

Mystical Tutor - I would like to give him a chance but i am not sure about how he will perform in Storm decks.
I don't see that he will make Reanimator overpowered because there is so much graveyard hate, nowadays. That will Reanimator always keep in check.

Survival of the fittest - For me, Survival seems, a lot safer to be unbanned than Mystical Tutor. We have a lot of miracles around that can handle a swarm of Vengevines with Terminus easily. Furthermore like others said, there is still RiP, Deathrite, Revoker, Spellbomb and a lot more.

Hermit Druid - Wouldnt be that bad because there is a lot of graveyard hate and cheap creature removal. He has a cmc of 2 and no haste. Furthermore he is only 1/1. He can easily be removed in a meta with Bolt, Charms, Swords.

Earthcraft - I dont know a lot about this card and im not sure what Elves can do with it. But for me Elves has a lot of more power (4 Gaea's Cradle, Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel). I dont think that they abuse Earthcraft.

Mind Twist - Like you said, mind twist is really save. It is as "dangerous" as Black Vise was. X = 2 --> CMC @3 means a bad Hymn to Tourach... that not a way of beeing dangerous.^^

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Originally Posted by Deckerator

Mystical Tutor - I would like to give him a chance but i am not sure about how he will perform in Storm decks.
I don't see that he will make Reanimator overpowered because there is so much graveyard hate, nowadays. That will Reanimator always keep in check.

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4Head

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Originally Posted by Deckerator

Yeah i see it that Wizards often bans and unbans in the same step.
Here is my list of the cards i would like to see unbanned:

Mystical Tutor - I would like to give him a chance but i am not sure about how he will perform in Storm decks.
I don't see that he will make Reanimator overpowered because there is so much graveyard hate, nowadays. That will Reanimator always keep in check.
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And not any good in miracles decks either...:laugh:

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Originally Posted by rufus

And not any good in miracles decks either...[emoji23]

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Ok my fault [emoji23] Forget Mystical Tutor. Too strong for miracles too
No MT

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Originally Posted by Deckerator

What about ending the talk of banning top, brainstorm or any miracles card. Be honest they dont ban any of those cards. Maybe in hundred years but that is still a long distance and not worth talking about. :-P

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You say that, but before DTT got the axe recently everyone was saying they would never in a million years ban DTT either...

Brainstorm is a waste of time to discuss it's not going to happen.

Top, or any Miracles Cards, I think are fair game to discuss and could actually get the axe at some point. (Not sayings it's likely, just saying it's not off the table... like Brainstorm.)

Also unbanning Earthcraft would push Enchantress over the top wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

Also unbanning Earthcraft would push Enchantress over the top wouldn't it?

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I don't think unbanning anything would push Enchantress over the top. Earthcraft might give the deck a fighting chance though, which I think is fine.

Enchantress still has the problem of losing too itself and not being particular good

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

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Also unbanning Earthcraft would push Enchantress over the top wouldn't it?

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I doubt it - Earthcraft wants lots of creatures, and Enchantress won't produce that unless you go with the combo. And if you do want to go the combo route I think enchantress already has better options than playing two individually weak cards.

Elves has Birchlore Rangers and Heritage Druid which, I think, are simply better in that deck.

IMO Earthcraft is a relatively safe unban.