All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by rufus

IMO Earthcraft is a relatively safe unban.

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People seem to be forgetting this guy:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/s...KCEpQ&usqp=CAE

This guy was one of the reasons Survival got banned.


Survival of the Fittest - Gerry Thompson
Creatures (29)
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Shield Sphere
1 Triskelion
2 Necrotic Ooze
2 Basking Rootwalla
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Vengevine
1 Shriekmaw
1 Wispmare

Lands (18)
1 Tree of Tales
1 Forest
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Spells (13)
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thoughtseize


Step 1 Unban Earthcraft, if all hell breaks loose go to Step 2.

Step 2 Ban Enlightened Tutor.

From there we can then safely bring Survival back and Frantic Search.

Earthcraft is not even all that busted anymore. What does it combo with, just Squirrel Nest? Both are answered by Abrupt Decay, can be pre-emptively discarded or countered, every deck has access to Pithing Needle, other combo decks can achieve their combo faster and just as (if not more) consistently, and there are a variety of control deck answers. If a card like Show and Tell is allowable, and if Entomb + 1-2 mana reanimation spells are allowable, I don't see why a relatively slow combo requiring multiple elements is unsafe. It being Not-Blue is also a factor. This card is arguably just as safe as other weird combo finishers, and it's not like Cephalid Breakfast or Oops All Spells is tearing up the metagame.

As mentioned before, Elves already has access to plenty of mana via 4x Gaea's Cradle and its creatures. So this would really just give a deck like Enchantress an occasional combo win and maybe push it into being a viable Tier 2 metagame deck rather than languishing as a Tier 3+ pile that's been outclassed for the last several years.

Alternatively, I *guess* some decks running green might add it somewhere to their 75 as alternative win condition, but then this still isn't much more busted than something like Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace. Less mana per combo element (which are individually next-to-worthless unlike Rest in Peace), but provides a slightly more fragile setup that is also an Abrupt Decay target. The Enlightened Tutor argument didn't apply to these elements either.

Existing decks already run plenty of answers (Wear // Tear, Golgari Charm, etc.) so even if it were a legitimate threat it's not as if answers are lacking. And let's say that somehow Enchantress were to actually become a legitimate, Tier 1 deck requiring actual consideration for sideboarding: cards like Back to Nature and Reverent Silence exist. And personally, I think it'd be cool to have another underdog fringe strategy that doesn't win via 'normal' creature combat become a viable metagame choice (similar to decks like Lands, MUD, etc.)

If stuff like Land Tax and Black Vise can be re-evaluated, Earthcraft deserves the same. Legacy is a very different format nowadays.

tl;dr unban Earthcraft already, it being on the banned list still is embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Earthcraft is not even all that busted anymore. What does it combo with, just Squirrel Nest? Both are answered by Abrupt Decay, can be pre-emptively discarded or countered, every deck has access to Pithing Needle, other combo decks can achieve their combo faster and just as (if not more) consistently, and there are a variety of control deck answers. If a card like Show and Tell is allowable, and if Entomb + 1-2 mana reanimation spells are allowable, I don't see why a relatively slow combo requiring multiple elements is unsafe. It being Not-Blue is also a factor. This card is arguably just as safe as other weird combo finishers, and it's not like Cephalid Breakfast or Oops All Spells is tearing up the metagame.

As mentioned before, Elves already has access to plenty of mana via 4x Gaea's Cradle and its creatures. So this would really just give a deck like Enchantress an occasional combo win and maybe push it into being a viable Tier 2 metagame deck rather than languishing as a Tier 3+ pile that's been outclassed for the last several years.

Alternatively, I *guess* some decks running green might add it somewhere to their 75 as alternative win condition, but then this still isn't much more busted than something like Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace. Less mana per combo element (which are individually next-to-worthless unlike Rest in Peace), but provides a slightly more fragile setup that is also an Abrupt Decay target. The Enlightened Tutor argument didn't apply to these elements either.

Existing decks already run plenty of answers (Wear // Tear, Golgari Charm, etc.) so even if it were a legitimate threat it's not as if answers are lacking. And let's say that somehow Enchantress were to actually become a legitimate, Tier 1 deck requiring actual consideration for sideboarding: cards like Back to Nature and Reverent Silence exist. And personally, I think it'd be cool to have another underdog fringe strategy that doesn't win via 'normal' creature combat become a viable metagame choice (similar to decks like Lands, MUD, etc.)

If stuff like Land Tax and Black Vise can be re-evaluated, Earthcraft deserves the same. Legacy is a very different format nowadays.

tl;dr unban Earthcraft already, it being on the banned list still is embarrassing.

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Good post. Would read again. Also moat, e-plague, revoker, suppression field, illness, virulent plague and worst of all Basic Forest.

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Originally Posted by rufus

Elves has Birchlore Rangers and Heritage Druid which, I think, are simply better in that deck.

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Honestly, Earthcraft is miles better than heritage or birchlore. It does not die from removal, does not care about creature type, requires only one creature to make mana...

If Earthcraft was unban, I don't know if I would add it to my elves decks or if I would just put some elves in my Earthcraft deck.
Earthcraft is a really brutal card. If you're evaluating it with squirrel nest, you're totally misreading the card. It's like thinking brainstorm is not bad because it can help countering a spell with counterbalance, but hell, CB + BS is not that scary as a combo, as it requires 2 cards to counter one, and is still conditional. So brainstorm is not really good.

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Originally Posted by dte

Honestly, Earthcraft is miles better than heritage or birchlore. It does not die from removal, does not care about creature type, requires only one creature to make mana...

If Earthcraft was unban, I don't know if I would add it to my elves decks or if I would just put some elves in my Earthcraft deck.
Earthcraft is a really brutal card. If you're evaluating it with squirrel nest, you're totally misreading the card. It's like thinking brainstorm is not bad because it can help countering a spell with counterbalance, but hell, CB + BS is not that scary as a combo, as it requires 2 cards to counter one, and is still conditional. So brainstorm is not really good.

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I'm pretty sure that's not true, as these creatures actually make up a significant part of the Elves engine.

Also, Earthcraft does little to nothing with regards to the 3 main ways elves win: Natural Order, GSZ as well as Glimpse of Nature.
Earthcraft genererates 1 mana per creature - Heritage and Birchlore can do much more than that.

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Originally Posted by Deckerator

Ok my fault [emoji23] Forget Mystical Tutor. Too strong for miracles too
No MT

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Unban MT, Ban Top. ;)

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Originally Posted by dte

Honestly, Earthcraft is miles better than heritage or birchlore. It does not die from removal, does not care about creature type, requires only one creature to make mana...

...Earthcraft is a really brutal card. ....

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I haven't done testing, so you may well be right. Quasim0ff already mentioned Natural Order, GSZ, and Glimpse. There are also lost creature synergies with Craterhoof Behemoth and Gaea's Cradle. The difference in mana cost is huge. Elves also doesn't run that many basic lands (though that's a minor issue).

Maybe there's something busted with Earthcraft that I haven't thought of, but everything I can think of seems less impressive than legal stuff.

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Originally Posted by rufus

I doubt it - Earthcraft wants lots of creatures, and Enchantress won't produce that unless you go with the combo. And if you do want to go the combo route I think enchantress already has better options than playing two individually weak cards.

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I disagree that the cards are the individually weak. Squirrel's Nest makes chumps, which are certainly of value in a prison deck. And while Enchantress runs only four creatures, between GSZ and mulligans, there is usually one in play (which otherwise never needs to tap). Earthcraft allows your Enchantress to untap a land, which virtually always will have one or more enchantments on it.

If by weak you meant (individually) not as good as the average card in the deck, you might be right. But if you mean not particularly good at all, I disagree.

I'm uncertain if Earthcraft would make Enchantress competitive again. Enchantress has game against a lot of blue decks, and it can run Moon! Maybe giving the deck a way to pull wins off more quickly would give it the edge it needs. It worked for Lands. The build could change a little. Possibly Eidolon Of Blossoms for extra Earthcraft synergy? The deck would need to make room for the new pieces. Maybe the Squirrel chumps allow for skimping on defense? Does it run fewer other win cons (it didn't run many to begin with)?

I very much doubt it will make Enchantress over powered. It does nothing to help against its worst matches (combo). What it might do IG shore up the good MUs, which might be enough to put it on the map.

I think you really take the things in the wrong way when you want to put Earthcraft in an elf deck. Even if I continue to say that Earthcraft >> heritage druid (and I play elf a lot, so I know about what the cart does).

Now, try to imagine Earthcraft paired with a monastery mentor, or a young pyromancer? with utopia sprawl/wild growth? with any good token maker?

Patrol signaler or squirrel Nest are not the right way to look at what Earthcraft can do. Elf neither. You can imagine a lot of combo or control archetypes that would be more than playable.

More than Squirrel Nest, i would like to see Earthcraft with Shrieking Drake, dunno if that would bring a competitive combo deck or not.

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Originally Posted by Barook

If anything gets the axe, it would be Top, based on past situations, mainly due to the durdle factor. Splash damage would be neglectable since the rest of the decks only take a laughable percentage of the metagame.

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Jus because a deck is a negligible percent of the big circuit meta, it does not follow that hurting the deck has a negligible effect.

1. A deck which is rouge today could be strong tomorrow. Lands was weak a few years ago, but if a key card had been banned we'd never had known what we would now be missing.
2. Less obviously, Legacy is very different in smaller, more predictable metas. In a local scene, any deck which has strong MUs against (some) tier one decks could be the optimal choice. Imagine a local meta so bloated with Lands that a number of players have (correctly) started bringing glass cannon combos in response. High Tide could suddenly be the best deck you can choose, as it has fantastic MUs against that field. Similarly its not hard to imagine a local meta where Painter is the optimal answer - even if everyone is bringing tier one decks and playing to win! And note that the majority of competitive Legacy is small stakes local events.

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Originally Posted by Barook

If Top had to go, it would be because of the blue shells that abuse it the most, not because of the nonblue decks which run it. It's the degeneracy (or other problems like logistics) that counts, not the fair things you could do with a problematic card.

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Absolutely. If a card is creating a problem in one or more decks, it needs to be banned regardless of splash damage to other (non problematic) decks.

But even if we accept the premise that Miracles is an issue (I do not, but for the sake of argument...) and needs to be dealt with, that does not equate to Top bearing all the blame. If Miracles could be brought down to fair levels by banning cards which incurred zero splash damage (CB and/or Terminus), isn't that better? That solves the (alleged) problem without the unwanted side effects.

I'd rather not get into whether or not Miracles is a problem please (it's okay if we disagree on this). But surely its better to ban cards which only hurt the decks we are actively trying to hurt!

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I'd rather not get into whether or not Miracles is a problem please (it's okay if we disagree on this). But surely its better to ban cards which only hurt the decks we are actively trying to hurt!

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As a general rule of thumb that makes perfect sense, but in certain cases it does not. There's a parallel here to the reason why Survival is banned and not Vengevine; as long as Survival was legal, every creature they printed could potentially break it wide open. Rather than ban every creature that has a broken interaction with Survival, it makes more sense to just ban Survival itself. There's further parallel in the fact that Survival was obnoxious to play against/spectate because the Survival player is constantly looking at/shuffling their deck.

I'm not necessarily saying Top should be banned, but if anything in Miracles is, that should probably be it. Yes, there's some minor splash damage, but the number of decks that suddenly become viable without Miracles in the picture likely far outweighs the loss.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

As a general rule of thumb that makes perfect sense, but in certain cases it does not. There's a parallel here to the reason why Survival is banned and not Vengevine; as long as Survival was legal, every creature they printed could potentially break it wide open. Rather than ban every creature that has a broken interaction with Survival, it makes more sense to just ban Survival itself. There's further parallel in the fact that Survival was obnoxious to play against/spectate because the Survival player is constantly looking at/shuffling their deck.

I'm not necessarily saying Top should be banned, but if anything in Miracles is, that should probably be it. Yes, there's some minor splash damage, but the number of decks that suddenly become viable without Miracles in the picture likely far outweighs the loss.

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Also, top is the top of the poll in the top of this page. (sorry)

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

But even if we accept the premise that Miracles is an issue (I do not, but for the sake of argument...) and needs to be dealt with, that does not equate to Top bearing all the blame. If Miracles could be brought down to fair levels by banning cards which incurred zero splash damage (CB and/or Terminus), isn't that better? That solves the (alleged) problem without the unwanted side effects.

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I'm not sure the durdle factor alone is enough to ban a card. Wizards did unban Time Spiral after all so I'm not sure Top will get banned for that reason either.

I think banning Counterballance is wrong because Counterballance as written is just fine, it's only when it's combined with Top and cards like Brainstorm and Ponder does it do things which are busted in half.

Terminus has the same problem. On it's own it's fine, (well it's terrible design... but... ok..), the common thread here is that Top takes these cards that might not even see play on there own and elevates them to a point where they are extremely good.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

As a general rule of thumb that makes perfect sense, but in certain cases it does not. There's a parallel here to the reason why Survival is banned and not Vengevine; as long as Survival was legal, every creature they printed could potentially break it wide open. Rather than ban every creature that has a broken interaction with Survival, it makes more sense to just ban Survival itself.

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This is a good point. On the other hand, CB, Terminus, and EtA are "broken" by library manipulation. Keep these legal, and any quality maniplulation they print from now on is dangerous.

Cards which care what's on the top of your deck are pretty rare (clash wasn't very good), so it a question of what design space they want to keep open. Manipulation (which they are getting away from), or cards which care about order (which they almost never print to begin with).

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Originally Posted by Zilla

Yes, there's some minor splash damage, but the number of decks that suddenly become viable without Miracles in the picture likely far outweighs the loss.

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I'm not convnced the loss of Miracles will open up the format that much. What decks will be viable which currently are not? Gobos and Zoo were hurting long before Miracles was ever big.

Miracles is a unique deck. It's stack control in a shell that is almost incapable of exerting any pressure early on; so it's committed to the control plan in a way other control decks are not. To some of us, MTG just isn't MTG without the hard control decks.

Miracles also employs synergistic cards which other decks smply can't run. Legacy is full of midrange and aggro/control decks packing "good cards". I personally wouldn't want to lose so distinct an archetype just to get more flavours of the standard fare.

I don't want to see a format where most of the top decks are powered by different combinations of the same narrow pool of quality threats and answers. If a deck runs obscure or unique cards (which do obscure or unique things), uses common cards for unique purposes, and/or attacks the game from a unique angle; that deck has character and helps distinguish Legacy. These are features which should be encouraged.

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

...the common thread here is that Top takes these cards that might not even see play on there own and elevates them to a point where they are extremely good.

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It's been pointed out that SDT barely sees play on its own. CB makes it extremely good.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

It's been pointed out that SDT barely sees play on its own. CB makes it extremely good.

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You have it backwards. Top sees play outside of miracles for decks trying to smooth out their draws, who the fuck is going to play counterbalance without top, without a way to instantly manipulate your library with minimal investment.

Top makes CB really good, not the other way around, Top by itself is a decent card.

I'm disapointed, this thread diverged from its purpose. Why isn't people discussing how Brainstorm is what makes miracles good, instead of talking about SdT?

I don't even know if I'm joking, since I really wonder what'd happen to miracles if BS was banned. Can thread go back to this endless discussion now? :eyebrow:

Removing Miracles from the metagame won't bring back Goblins or Zoo. I think it's good for Legacy to have a dedicated control deck, but whether that deck is Miracles or not doesn't matter too much to me. Maybe a new printing could take the place of Top. Something like a one-drop artifact with T: Look at the top five cards of your library and put them back in any order (and no other abilities).

Maybe Crystal Ball as a really bad replacement? They will never print anything like Top again.

I don't know what to think when people assume the death of miracles may help goblins come back.... miracles is the best matchup for goblins, and i think the only real reason to take them to a big event right now.

Anyway, I really don't want top to be banned. Why ever decks like nic fit junk imperial painter and so on should get hurt because right now the dominant deck (miracles) is played by 20% of the field and causes logistic issues? If you ban counterbalance, miracles probably dies anyway, top is played by a minimal percentage of the field and logistic issues disappear without worsening decks that are already not extremely good. I am also really irritated by matt sperling's article "don't ban top" on channelfireball because he doesn't even mention the fact that other decks besides miracles play top, that is in my view the main point to keep top in the format. Pro players usually don't know what they talk about when it comes to legacy.