@Emidln: What does your example do against the FoW he mentioned? What if he just forces the DD instead of the Chant lateron?
nqn
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@Emidln: What does your example do against the FoW he mentioned? What if he just forces the DD instead of the Chant lateron?
nqn
Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
At any time before resolving Doomsday, an enemy Force of Will on one of your spells causes you to play Lotus Petal and then Ad Nauseam. Any time after Doomsday resolves, you can top into SDT and cast Meditate (if they want to force Brainstorm for instance).Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I'm assuming we're just playing the standard hybrid list of:
15 Fetches/Blue Duals/Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Rit
4 LED
2 Cabal Rit
4 Brainstorm
2-3 Ponder
4 SDT
6 Silence/Chant
0-1 KGrip
4 Mystical
3 Infernal
1 AdN
1 DD
1 Med
1 IGG
1 Tendrils
I did not remember the exact history as it blurred with other games, so I apologize for that. It was the best I could do from memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
However I do remember having 3 land in play that game and the scenario I gave you only had you drawing 2 land. Looking it over, it's obvious that I didn't draw a Brainstorm on the 3rd turn. It was clearly a land to because otherwise I would have missed the 3rd land drop.
A simple mistake.
Either way, the deck would be short against the Force.
As for something else, I may disagree with you, but I will attack the cards and the interaction of them in the deck. Inciting a flame-war various times through your post is unnecessary, immature, and irrelevant to the validity of the card itself. In short: grow up.
I agree, Doomsday can steal games that would be otherwise unwinnable.Quote:
Well, any well-developed meta has quite some Gaddock Teegs in the sideboard; if it's not against combo, it's against control decks with EE, Elsepth and Force of Will. So yeah, running into Gaddock Teeg is a situation you have to keep in mind. I know situations in tournaments where a certain Rock player lost against the ANT player because he went off using DD. It happens, it steals games. If you know how, it's very good.
However, I've already covered this before. Doomsday will also lose games for you too, even if only because of the other cards you're running (like 4 Top) without actually seeing Doomsday.
Well, no. If you have Brainstorm, you're not short against Force. I was actually assuming the discrepancy was due to you being on the draw and not mentioning that you found a third land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
If you didn't have a third land, you should Brainstorm main phase with the hope of hitting a mana source/chant effect and then Infernal Tutor into Dark Ritual to setup your third turn. If you have a third land, you get to double up Dark Rit then look again after a shuffle possibly finding more mana or protection.
I'm still not even sure why you'd play so poorly in your original scenario. EOT Dark Rit, Ad Nauseam is a lot worse than mainphase Ad Nauseam. You already had one Lotus Petal so you should be fine on mana assuming at least 6 0cc initial mana sources in the deck (5 remaining). By passing the turn, you're trying to trade extra initial mana sources against their possibly drawing/finding Force of Will, Counterbalance, or other hate. This is a mistake compounding the mistake of taking Lotus Petal.
Learn to play the deck. There is absolutely no excuse for someone giving advice about a deck to make decisions that poorly and then document those bad decisions so as to propagate their own bad habits. Drawing Lotus Petal is simply awful.Quote:
As for something else, I may disagree with you, but I will attack the cards and the interaction of them in the deck. Inciting a flame-war various times through your post is unnecessary, immature, and irrelevant to the validity of the card itself. In short: grow up.
tldr; if you don't want to be treated like a scrub, don't post scrubby plays
I have very modest experience with storm combo, but I fail to see how Top is a bad card that will lose you games. If you need to go off RIGHT NOW, Top admittedly isn't doing a lot for you, but in all other scenarios, Top gives you some of the best card selection in the game when coupled with shuffle effects. At worst, it turns into another card. It helps you recover quicker from a disadvantageous position when you need protection AND accel, or accel x2, or accel AND tutor - in these situations Top can save you an entire turn.
Again, I don't have a ton of experience with storm combo, but I do have a good deal of experience with SDT, to the extent that I'm so accustomed to seeing 4-7 cards a turn, that seeing only 1 a turn seems incredibly sub-optimal.
Exactly. Please don't quote Rico Suave in the future, he is on my ignore list because everytime I read something he posts, I feel my IQ points dropping and I have already drank quite a few of those away so I have to make them last!
But in the interest of fairness, there is genuinely no good reason to not run Top in ANT. The arguments of: it slows the deck down, it makes it clunky, or I can't play it right, are not very valid. It adds consistency, helps in the control matchups, WORKS MORE THAN ONCE (unlike Ponder), and allows you to play Doomsday which is the most versatile combo card on legacy.
I understand a lot of people can't play it right, and that is fine, but even if you aren't running DD then you can still run Top in ANT, it is damn good, I promise. I have no idea why you would not play it, Ponder is inferior, let me set up a scenario. Your opening hand is: Top, Sea, fetch, Dark Ritual, 2 Petal, Cabal Ritual. You can keep that and reliably find something. Now imagine that scenario except swap Top for Ponder. You are now reliant on the top 3 cards of you library to do something, if you don't find something you are now in topdeck mode.
Now I can already see the arguments against this which are non-sensical and circular: Ponder speeds the deck up (by a turn at most), that scenario is not likely (play combo more than once), Top isn't needed (figured I would throw that in there cause it confuses me and makes no sense), and I can't play Doomsday. Ok, the last one is valid but take some time to learn it. Read emidln's articles and start practicing, you have to be willing to put in the time though to make it work, otherwise you are never going to understand it. DD is well worth knowing how to play and greatly beneficial in the blue matchups, and if you have to ask why, I would highly suggest looking back at the thread on pages 30 and up, it has been discussed in depth.
Although this is a valid argument you could just run Angel's Grace and the result would be the same, and Angel's Grace just takes one slot and is a whopping 5 Mana cheaper than the Doomsday Meditate engine thus not bolting you twice during an Ad Nauseam. By the way I don't like the card I am just showing a different way of achieving this.Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
This is just ignorant, let's turn this argument around, what you're basically saying is that all those thousands of players that don't play Doomsday are bad players or inexperienced ones. All those old vintage players including me who has played Storm combo since the mechanic was printed is just stupid and do not know how to play magic and our knowledge is not worth a dime since we have not come to the same conclusion as six or seven of the writers on this forum. I am not saying that your conclusions or your results with the deck is a fallacy but as much as those who do not play DDANT has to respect your knowledge you just have to accept that not everyone is getting the same conclusions as you, and it do not have to be because of inexperience with the deck or with lack of play skillQuote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
This is Actually true but just dismissing everyone elses test result by stating they do not have as much experience as you have with the deck is just hindering discussion, I bet you do not have any clue about how much experience Rico Suave or any other of the new additions to this thread has with the deck, and thus you can't just dismiss their results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
. If I had more time I would add more to the discussion but right now I have to sleep.
So, have you or have you not played with Doomsday? Because frankly, if you're a storm combo player and you've taken the time to learn the stacks, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't at least see its merits. You might not include it in your deck because of personal preference, but surely you wouldn't dismiss it if you've actually played with the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wave
I tried really hard to win with DD. I really tried to get situations where it wins me the game and Igg does not. I got 1. The Opponent dropped turn 2 Nought+Crypt and I immediatly won with DD on turn 3 but that was really the only game out of ~200 where DD shined.
As I know how hard it is to get into an archetype and how often newcomers doesnīt understand whatīs truly important, I REALLY want to like Doomsday after all...But for now I canīt as I just NEVER need it :cry:
I will read the DD-Stacks (again) in christmas holidays and then try even harder to find a game where I need it. Iīm gonna let you know if it happened in 2009 ;)
PS:200,yay :P
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
I've only been playing DD for about a month but I find myself using it quite often. If you have a Top out, it's almost like a no-brainer since most of the time you can just cast DD and crack LED in response for UUU to pay for the Meditate. And if you're against things without counterspells and you have extra mana or cards in hand, you can do even more dumb things than that. So in essence, all you need is that BBBXXU and you rack up a free 7+ storm count without the risk of your opponent IGG-ing anything back. You can do the same with a Chanted IGG, but that requires you to have a certain hand (generally with LED or at least a bunch of expendable spells so you can go hellbent). With DD if you have Brainstorm/Top in play you can just go for it, given you have enough mana. This doesn't even count the hands where you have extra cards in hand and can DD -> IGG loop for 10+ easily against anything that doesn't pack counterspells or after a resolved Chant. And then of course there are the post-board piles. Honestly, they're not hard to remember if you just glance over the DD piles and play your matchups. It'll all start to make sense and the piles become quicker and quicker to assemble.
I know there's a lot of discussion about whether or not to include the Doomsday package, but from my point of view you sacrifice two slots of consistency for a powerful alternate engine. Even if you don't know the difficult tricks with the DD pile, it's still a 100% safe plan when you go off versus casting Ad Nauseum, which always has the chance to fizzle. But I'm just wasting my breath here, as it's all been said before. I've tried both out, and I find myself missing DD in straight ANT. Whether or not you think that engine is relevant is up to you, but I've personally found it worthwhile.
Unfortunately, it seems that you're still unable to avoid acting like a child. I'm not going to let myself get into a fool's argument, as you obviously have the experience there, but I will make a point that is on your level and maybe it will hit home.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
If you want to get personal, then let's take a look at recent events.
The top8 at the St. Louis tournament was:
43 land x 2
Aggro Loam x2
Merfolk x2
Zoo
CB
My first reaction was "nobody played combo at this event?"
Then I saw you were there, and failed by killing yourself with Doomsday. Of course you are quick to tell others to "learn to play" but does the word hypocrite mean anything to you? At least you should give more than just a little extra thought to the idea of DD being too difficult for you to play (as it clearly was too difficult for you).
Pearls before swine, as they say.
Wow. You're seriously telling him that? So the only reason you can think of why he didnt make Top 8 in that event was because he can't properly play Doomsday?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Actually I am playing the combo every now and then and I played it a whole 6 month a while ago so I know the merits of the combo, and I actually never dismissed the combo, what I am saying is that you cannot dismiss some ones experience right away every time since you do not know the experience of the player, people have done it recurringly in this thread and that is hindering to the discussion. Right now your biggest argument against not playing the combo is play it or you are a bad player, if you have not come to the same conclusion that it beats everything, then you are a bad player. Many of the arguments brought forward against the combo have their merits but you have just met them with, you are a bad player or a bad DD player. I think the combo is good and it solve a lot of situations that the Ad Nauseam and Ill-gotten gains package can't, but it is not the super solution to everything that has been stated in this thread, as an example the package is actually worse against the combo matchup. That is not a small feat since the meta (at least here) consists of at least a fourth of combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
You're having a worse combomatchup with a deck with 6-7 chants and 4 tops?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wave
Oh come on, don't be this dense. He was mocking Em's silly 'I'm so fucking awesome with deck' attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Sorry if this post is not about the diatribe hybrid vs standard.
I take away the dust from the top af my ant deck and I'm starting to play it again. I'm looking for new cards to try.
Has anyone tried Carpet of Flowers in the green splash? If yes, with what response? I'm thinking about it in a meta with many tempo decks.
Carpet of Flowers is really awesome against blue (especially Tempo-Decks) cause it crushes their mana-denial plan und you can simply set up your game plan by out-controlling them with Chants, Top and DD. At the moment I'm testing it in the SB Xantid Swarm slot, due to all my opponent keeping creature removal against me; it's usually a non-wasteable land that provides whichever mana you need; I really love that card.
After looking at the storm piles I'm notincing typically you have you already have roughly 5 spells played before you make a pile since the majority of piles storm for 4-6. Can someone give me a basic rundown of what would go on before making a DD pile. Thanks
What? Was that a counter argument? Do you think the 6-7 Chant package is a secret tech of Doomsday combo? Regular ANT is playing the same package of disruption, why is this a counter argument? The Doomsday list is packing four Tops and they are at least a turn slower than Ponder which is maxed out in the regular ANT list, and the Doomsday package can't go off until turn 3 and there's the small possibility that a package consisting of 6 mana might make you fizzle during the much faster ANT comboing. That's why the DD lists is worse against combo, that extra turn the tops takes make you vulnerable against Aluren, Enchantress, Painter Grindstone and Ichorid since their combo turn is turn two or three, the ANT matchup is also getting worse since they are a turn faster and also belcher (although Belcher is also hard for the ANT deck)Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
Statistically, you are as likely to be able to combo with Doomsday on turn 2 as you are with Infernal Tutor (assuming you played the same number of them). The cheaper mana cost of Doomsday 4-6 on turn 2 is comparable with Infernal Tutor's 7-8 mana when you factor in the additional cantrips necessary for Doomsday to work. If you count pass the turn piles, you are a lot more likely to combo with Doomsday on turn 1 or 2 than Infernal Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wave
Have you ever actually lost a match to Enchantress? I don't know that I have ever done that playing anything derived from FT and I've been playing the deck for a long time. That deck is glacially slow and has...6 relevant cards, all of which can be bounced or removed unless they have 2 copies of a 4-of in play to protect them.
Trying to blindly go off turn 2 in the ANT mirror is a good way to Hymn/Mind Twist yourself at the cost of W for the opponent. Doing it against a deck that can not only have 6-7 chants, but also filter Mysticals into Chants with SDT is asking to lose. The biggest problem enemy combo decks face is that 6-7 ANT in general can win by turn 3 while finding/casting a lot of Orim's Chant effects. It was what made Extirpate and Abeyance good in the mirror previously, and has elevated Xantid Swarm in the mirror now. Belcher has to go off turn 1 on the play and win with belcher or it risks seeing its Belcher bounced and/or coming under fire of chant effects whenever it tries to cast rituals.
The last time I checked, the defense to Aluren was Mystical->KGrip and laugh at them when they can't deal with SDT hiding your KGrip. You have forever and a day to win that matchup.