It's the worst creature in the deck. Why wouldn't it be cut?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
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It's the worst creature in the deck. Why wouldn't it be cut?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Because there's absolutely no replacement? And no, GSZ isn't a replacement, it's an excellent complement to Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
There's always a "worst" card in every deck, it doesn't mean it should be cut.
In a vacuum tarmogoyf is a 4 of.
But right now the metagame is inbred with fair strategies and a lack of combo decks. As a result removal is rampant and Stoneforge gives you much more value than Tarmogoyf if it dies in a 1 for 1 trade.
And untapping with both creatures is pretty good, but Stoneforge Mystic steals more games.
Plus with Green sun's zenith you can get away with only playing 1 or 2 goyfs.
On a sidenote, don't forget that power creep exists. Every creature will eventually get outclassed. Before time spiral block, control decks never though win conditions were going to get cheaper on mana than Psychatog.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think you should cut Tarmogoyfs. The deck is threat light as is. I'd rather play 4 Goyfs and multiple Green Sun's than 1 Goyf and 4 Green Sun's. Yes, you get variety, but this isn't that type of deck (unlike James R's list from the GP, the Force of Will-less Bant). You want threats in this deck, and the only reason you don't have more threats is because you have so many answers.
I'd honestly cut other stuff before all my Goyfs. I'd cut a Jitte for the Batterskull, and cut a Deed, Thoughtseize, and maybe a GSZ for 3 Stoneforges. Maybe I'd cut another Goyf for a piece of Equipment (Feast and Famine? Body and Mind? Jitte #2?), but you still want threats as well as answers.
I don't think I'll be playing Stoneforge right now, but I'll see where the meta goes. If my meta isn't infested with Batterskull Landstill, I'll stay as-is. If it shifts/if the deck becomes rampant enough, I'll switch.
On a side note, how many people's metas are infested with Batterskull Landstill as of yet? At the GP it was a bit of a surprise by the Channel-Fireball team, but I was decently prepared (Qasali, Teeg, Thrun, Vindicate).
With this switch to Batterskull, this also means we should switch to include more creature kill, to be honest. Taking out their Stoneforge ASAP severely decreases the usefulness of Batterskull, as it sits in their hand for a few turns, which leaves it vulnerable to discard. Has anyone considered the possibility of adding in Dismember/Smother/Go for the Throat, in addition to Swords?
As well, I think Krosan Grip deserves to be back in the board. Even though I love my tutor-board, with all the Crucible of Worlds, Shackles, Batterskull, and such ilk, Grip and Extirpate seem very good right now.
Thoughts?
-Matt
I'm running 1 Path to Exile as a supplemental "5th" Swords to Plowshares, and running we're already running 4 Thoughtseize in order to pluck Batterskull out of the opponent's hand after they've searched.
Take the good with the bad i guess.... I just went 3-2-1 at the southern california mox emerald tourney toady using my loam-tombstalker build.
// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Bayou
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vindicate
3 Runed Halo
I couldn't have been happier with the main deck but I feel that the fourth wasteland should be there somewhere. The sideboard was made when I saw the metagame at the event and also performed well.
I forgot to write down names but here is a brief report:
Round One(U/B Dark Depths)
Game One: I lead with a thoughtseize and a hymn and quickly follow that up with a terravore to apply some of the beats. He plays a dark confidant which is swords'd and a Jace which is irrelevant. I have no idea what is going on but get the easy win.
Game Two: Seeing how I put him on U/B control I sided in Gaddock Teegs for explosives, I thoughtseized him seeing the hexmage and by then it was too late and a 20/20 came to my side of the table to say hello.
Game Three: I keep a solid hand with two fast tombstalkers and a swords and he mulligans to five. On his turn two he combos off and meets the swords, on turn three he does it again. FML. 0-1
Round Two(Storm Combo)
Game One: He eats a double hymn and is never actually in the game, I am able to waste the two duals he plays and tarmogoyf/bob swing for the win.
Game Two: Turn One Gaddock Teeg turn two runed halo on tendrils....gg?
Round Three(Combo Elves)
Game One: I draw and play four thoughtseize this game, those remove a priest of titania, two natural orders and a perfect. That coupled with a swords and two goyf ended this game quickly.
Game Two: I keep a hand with swords and teeg and he keeps a fast natural order. With teeg in play he amasses an army of a perfect, two tokens and two other elf lords... I play and blow a EE for three and attack with the team to clear his board; he scoops the next turn.
Round Four(SDERock)
Game One: We trade some early disruption until wasteland/loam come online he is topping for mana sources while an untimely hymn empties his hand. A 13/13 terravore comes down to end the game very quickly.
Game Two: This game is similar to the first until I make my mistake of the day, which leads to this draw, with a knight in play I attacked with a huge terravore. For some reason I forgot bog existed and power cycled(no loams after siding) to ensure the vore would survive combat(I had the wasteland up for the maze). When he fetched the bog I face palmed and tried to salvage the game but he wound up top-shuffle-top for removal to seal the deal.
Game Three: This game was a beating with me drawing mass removal up the ass and trading 1-1 with deeds and explosives to run him out of gas. By the time I drew a threat to kill him, I had a tombstalker that was swords'd, the game was on turns and the vore could only do so much.
Round Five(G/W/u Mystic)
Game one:This game one went the way of so many game ones before it, with some wastelands being followed up by terravore and double tombstalker to seal the deal.
Game Two: In a role reversal my opponent plays turn one zenith for zero, turn two knight, turn three knight-fetch wasteland-wasteland me. Attack for 10......gg?
Game Three: I have answers for my opponents threats and he is color screwed, slightly wasteland induced, with a game breaking sower of temptation in hand.
Round Six(Elves...again)
Apparently elves believe in Karma because I got blown out these two games.
Game one: Turn 3 progenitus.
Game Two: Mulligan to five and I got the pleasure of watching my opponent draw a bunch of cards and play a bunch of elves...guess it wasn't meant to be.
All in all I had a great time and considering my lack of sleep and lack of competitive magic in the last three years I couldn't have been prouder of my performance. The store was great though i did feel for the 13 or so people that couldn't play due to table space. Thank you to all of the great people I talked to, traded and got to play today.
sdematt: your decklist is defiantly spreading and was played by quite a few people today across the room. I believe the junk list that top 8'd was your list and I have no idea what the aggro loam deck was.
my sideboard: perish for sure needs to go in the board as I saw green creatures left and right.
stoneforge mystic: this card was also everywhere and might actually be the real deal. Between the batterskull interaction and just fetching swords/jittes and attacking, the card is a very large threat when it is on the board and almost demands respect.
Cool! Is there a website for the tournament with posted results? Nice job on the finish! :)
-Matt
I think people are discounting the ability to just go turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Goyf, smash face for the win; no tricky plays with Stoneforge, KotR, etc, just good ol' fashioned beatdown. Running less than 4 Goyf takes this line of play away from the deck, which is a mistake imo. We're threat light as is, and people are suggesting we cut threats to make room for threats... this does not compute.
Ali Aintrazi mentioned Defense Grid in his article as being useful against Landstill, and it seems like it could be pretty good. Not the perfect answer, but still pretty useful. I hopped on eBay real quick and picked up a foil, and may give it a shot. Has anyone tried this in an E.Tutor sb, or does anyone have any thoughts on Defense Grid?
Also, if any of the seasoned Rock vets could throw me what they would consider a good current list that uses Stoneforge Mystics, that would be really cool. Unless no such thing exists. But I suspect it may be the way we are forced to go if everyone else is running around with Batterskulls. Just about the only way to keep pace with that card is by playing your own, it would seem.
Or we could start maindecking Pridemage. I currently have 3 flex slots (being occupied by 1 Path, 1 IoK, and 1 Elspeth). I could definitely start packing 3 Pridemage as it (a.) increased my threat count, and (b.) is a maindeck answer to retarded stuff like Batterskull, Standstill, Back to Basics, Pernicious Deed, Crucible of World, etc. True, we run Vindicate, but have 7 outs to a resolved Pernicious Deed is better than 4.
Running SFM/Batterskull just seems a lot better than adding another reactive card to this deck. We can't just run a deck of answers, and we certainly can never have the answers to everything. Batterskull is just such a brutal card and is now one of the premier reasons to run white, which is a color we have access to. Why not just run the cards?
Deckspace is pretty tight. What do you cut? You need 5-7 slots (3 SFM/2 Equip, 4 SFM/3 Equip).
I feel like maybe the Thoughtseizes? It's either that or Swords, but having less discard seems more tolerable than having no instant speed removal. MM has devalued both of those cards so much, and it's only going to get worse. All hyperbole aside, playing white right now and not packing SFM/Batterskull seems like bringing a handgun to a nuclear war.
I can get on board with that. 3 flex slots = 3 Equipment, -4 Thoughtseize +4 SFM. Seems reasonable, although I think I'd move 2-4 Thoughtseize to the SB as discard, even with MM, is a valuable tool versus control (and you can also use Thoughtseize to pluck their equipment after they run out their SFM turn 2) .
Absolutely. Like sdematt mentioned previously, as awesome as an E.Tutor sb is, it might be necessary to switch to a more traditional build like some number of Toughtseize, Extirpate/Surgical Extraction and Krosan Grip. I tested a maindeck build with SFM/Batterskull and wrecked Merfolk 3 out of 4 games. Not the most extensive session of testing, but still very favorable results. Swinging with a SoFI'd Batterskull germ against Merfolk is just fucking lol.
With the changes as suggested:
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
I wouldn't do that...I feel insecure without targeted discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Since you've removed TS for the Stoneforge package you may want to consider:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
-1 Wasteland
-1 Vindicate
+2 Removal (Go for the Throat/Smother)
Since you're relying solely on Hymn for discard you need to be able to compensate for less disruption by adding more removal. Albeit the equipment helps to offset creature-aggro you still might want disruption against opposing Bobs/KotR or other such threats if they resolve them before you resolve/equip.
Albeit I'm unfamilar with your meta but if your opting for the Stoneforge package I assume creatured-based aggro is most prominant so in such a meta Vindicate typically becomes a 3cc kill spell. 3 Top/8 fetches is sufficient enough to help you dig for a 1/3 Vindicate if the situation warrant such.
Running KotR lets you tutor up lands as needed so you can increase the chance/ability to grab Waste's when necessary, not to mention that in a creature-aggro meta there are more than sufficient basics to negate Wasteland and unfortunately in our deck tapping for colorless can be very detrimental to our tempo.
Forlorn Egoist
Believe me, if you haven't faced it yet you will feel more insecure getting your teeth kicked in by a Batterskull. When was the last time you even resolved an early Thoughtseize? It's been a while for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
I like this list a lot. I have SoFaF main over Jitte, but I face a lot of Team America. I think the 2 required equips are Batterskull and SoFI, with the 3rd being the flex slot and can probably be anything, I'd even consider SoBaM in some situations over Jitte. Jitte is amazing, but mostly against aggro and Batterskull has that more than covered.
Why not to play City of Solitude instead (only the matter of mana cost?)? For now the best weapon against control decks are in my opinion SFM/Batterskull and Thrun. Both are really big pain in the ...Quote:
Originally Posted by trilobite_hives