Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I may play in my local little tourney saturday. These are the decks that I know people there play: 2 Maverick, 1 Wb Death and Taxes, 1 Goblins, 1-3 UR Delver, 1 UB Tezzeret Stax. Would you guys say that it is safe to just go ahead and put like 3 Forces to the SB and just run more creature control? Also is humility worth it in the Maverick MU? Especially considering I already run 3x Supreme Verdict between my main and SB. And one final question, should I run 2 or 3 SB Sulfur Elemental?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Obviously the second Karakas would also require a meta full of S&T and Maverick.
Or a list with 2-3 Cliques.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Or a list with 2-3 Cliques.
oarsman's list already runs 2 Cliques main. Venser was the newest addition to the maindeck. I think oarsman was indicating that the second Karakas was to enable continual harassment with either legendary creature. Venser being able to Remand spells it the primary reason for additional Karakas.
Would Tolaria West be unreasonable for that purpose? Would it being able to fetch EE swing it in its favor? Obviously the :1::u::u: tutor cost is steep, but it's also uncounterable in the matches were that matters. Added benefit to running 1 Wasteland too?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Any list with Karakas has an internal use for the card, and the chances are pretty good that it is either going to get blown up by an opponent's Karakas or a Wasteland, so I see no reason to not run 2. 2 copies also increases the consistency of finding it, and this deck has more than enough ways to get rid of multiples in the event that the opponent doesn't run Wasteland.
tl:dr if you run Clique, you should run 2 Karakas.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Megadeus
And one final question, should I run 2 or 3 SB Sulfur Elemental?
I still don't understand the choice of Sulfur Elemental, as it seems really weak to me considering other available options. About the only thing it is good for is killing a Mother of Runes. However, you have could just run Porphyry Nodes, Firespout, Pyroclasm, Supreme Verdict or even Grim Lavamancer or Vedalken Shackles and have a better matchup against all the decks that aren't running white creatures like RUG, Goblins, and BUG-style decks (which are picking up popularity). Sulfur Elemental seems to only do one thing: help you with mother of runes. It just doesn't seem worth it at all, considering you have plenty of other options to help you against Maverick (and even mother) that help you against a lot of other decks out there.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
sdematt
Needs more Moat.
-Matt
The problem with Moat is that the not all of us can lay hands on a copy of the card that easily. It is one thing to shell out the ca$h for it; but sometimes the hunt is harder than the kill if you catch my meaning as that can be one of the toughter cards to find.
Thus if you figure your in an aggro world (and vs Goblins for sure)
Humility -- is a cheap alternitive
Supreme Verdict -- is a notch better than Wrath of God.
Ghostly Prison or Propaganda -- can slow down the onslought and that can give you time to stabilize
Batterskull/Jitte -- are maindeck for some guys already and both are good tech vs anything Aggro
RiP+Energy Field -- I left this one seperate as it is good; but there can be issues with putting the pieces together so often times you can find that your twiddling your thumbs trying to assemble the combo, or you get the combo together but your already in control so now it's just "Winning More".
Personally I go for 2x Humility in the SB.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Valtrix
I still don't understand the choice of
Sulfur Elemental, as it seems really weak to me considering other available options. About the only thing it is good for is killing a Mother of Runes. However, you have could just run
Porphyry Nodes,
Firespout,
Pyroclasm,
Supreme Verdict or even
Grim Lavamancer or
Vedalken Shackles and have a better matchup against all the decks that aren't running white creatures like RUG, Goblins, and BUG-style decks (which are picking up popularity). Sulfur Elemental seems to only do one thing: help you with mother of runes. It just doesn't seem worth it at all, considering you have plenty of other options to help you against Maverick (and even mother) that help you against a lot of other decks out there.
Sulfur Elemental used to be viable in metas full of Mothers, Thalias and especially Lingering Souls - since the latter have decreased in number, I agree with what you said.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
If Esperblade sees a resurgence to fight Terminus (Lingering Souls one at a time to draw out Termini and slowly grind out Miracles before we can Entreat the Angels), then i think subbing in some Sulfur Elementals again isn't a bad idea.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Engineered Plague is better against Esperblade than Sulfur Elemental is due to not being a creature, while improving the Goblins matchup at the same time.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I suggest Sulfur moreso because I'm sure people don't want to drop running Red, since Blast so pretty great.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Engineered Plague is better against Esperblade than Sulfur Elemental is due to not being a creature, while improving the Goblins matchup at the same time.
While this is true, running black instead of red as a splash is just worse, since you lose acces to THE reason of splashing a third colour in this deck: flexiblity.
The closest thing you have to REB in black is discard, but discard can't stop a topdecked/hidden with Brainstorm Time Spiral/Jace, cannot be used as additional removal for Delver, nor can get rid of a resolved Jace, making REB so much better than Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition and the like, it is also much better against combo hindering their development by countering their early cantrips while you set up your CounterTop.
Sulfur is VERY good if there's a relevant amount of Mothers, Thalia, Lingering Souls and Elspeth seeing play, otherwise you can avoid playing them and stick with Blasts only for your SB.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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While this is true, running black instead of red as a splash is just worse, since you lose acces to THE reason of splashing a third colour in this deck: flexiblity.
Eh?
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The closest thing you have to REB in black is discard, but discard can't stop a topdecked/hidden with Brainstorm Time Spiral/Jace, cannot be used as additional removal for Delver, nor can get rid of a resolved Jace, making REB so much better than Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition and the like, it is also much better against combo hindering their development by countering their early cantrips while you set up your CounterTop.
Isn't that what Force of Will and Counterspell do already? Discard is very strong in the control mirror. REB can destroy an opponent's Jace, but discard can get rid of the opponent's strongest card while letting me know whether it is safe to resolve my own Jace or not. You can argue that REB is better, but it doesn't change the fact that discard is also strong in the control mirror. Being able to kill Delver is nice, but discard is pretty good against Delver decks too, and discard is stronger against SNT Combo decks. If you prefer REB, that's fine. But calling the black splash "just worse" is wrong. The quality difference between Sulfur Elemental and Engineered Plague alone is huge, and since Goblins is one of this decks most difficult matchups, the black splash seems "just better" to me.
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Sulfur is VERY good if there's a relevant amount of Mothers, Thalia, Lingering Souls and Elspeth seeing play, otherwise you can avoid playing them and stick with Blasts only for your SB.
Sure, but those decks also run more creature removal than enchantment removal, so it's more vulnerable than Engineered Plague. But the bigger issue is that E Plague is relevant against more decks. Last time I checked, this deck does a pretty good job of beating up on Maverick, but has a tough time with Goblins. If you're worried about Thalia's, you may be playing the deck wrong.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I've tries both splashes, and was never impressed with black. It didn't do anything in matches that needed help, While Red provides access to powerful sideboard options in REB, Blood Moon, etc.
The way to beat Show and Tell is Meddling Mage, which doesn't even require a splash (I have never lost a match to SnT).
Either way, I would never board in E Plague against EsperBlade, seems like it does not do enough. I would rather use my Relics to fight the flashback on souls, snapcaster, etc. If I wanted a black sideboard card for that matchup, I'd play Darkblast first. Personally, I've never found the matchup to be that hard, as I feel we are a stronger control deck, and merely need to keep them off of early pressure to win.
As for beating goblins, I can't say enough about Moat. I'm aware it's expensive / hard to find, but I think this deck requires it. I've also been very happy with a single Baneslayer Angel in the board, which helps in a huge number of matches, including Goblins.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
alphastryk
I've tries both splashes, and was never impressed with black. It didn't do anything in matches that needed help, While Red provides access to powerful sideboard options in REB, Blood Moon, etc.
The way to beat Show and Tell is Meddling Mage, which doesn't even require a splash (I have never lost a match to SnT).
Either way, I would never board in E Plague against EsperBlade, seems like it does not do enough. I would rather use my Relics to fight the flashback on souls, snapcaster, etc. If I wanted a black sideboard card for that matchup, I'd play Darkblast first. Personally, I've never found the matchup to be that hard, as I feel we are a stronger control deck, and merely need to keep them off of early pressure to win.
As for beating goblins, I can't say enough about Moat. I'm aware it's expensive / hard to find, but I think this deck requires it. I've also been very happy with a single Baneslayer Angel in the board, which helps in a huge number of matches, including Goblins.
1. Show and Tell
I tried Meddling Mage, it was FAIL. Show and Tell Almost Always SB-in Pyroblast/REB. MM has to name Burning Wish, Show and Tell, but still be vulnerable to Pyroblast/REB, huge waste. Agasint Show and Tell, Flusterstorm is much more userful.
2. EsperBlade
More Supreme Verdict. You have to prepare Supreme Verdict in the SB against Delver anyway. This match-up is very skill intensive and tends to be drawn out attrition war. If you manage to get CB-T on board and you take care of Vindicate/EE nicely, you're on your way to victory.
3. Goblins
At the end of the day, if you survive first wave of Goblin from his opening hand, you want to drop Humility. Terminus is almost useless after first wave. Moat does not stop Goblin from seige-gang your life to zero; yet you most likely have spent your StP on the initial wave of Goblin already. Also, having Humility in the SB is good against Show and Tell as well, that's another incentive to run Humility over Moat, in addition to the price.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Eh?
flexible
adj.
1.
a. Capable of being bent or flexed; pliable.
b. Capable of being bent repeatedly without injury or damage.
2. Susceptible to influence or persuasion; tractable.
3. Responsive to change; adaptable
Having a card that gives us options is key in running a splash.
So, let's see those option.
REB is relevant against 7/9 of the current DtB (both versions of TA, Canadian, Blade, Miracle, Reanimator, ANT) discard only against 3/9 (Miracle, ANT, Blade).
REB in the matches where it's relevant, is always relevant because it can be either removal or counter, discard does nothing against a Delver beating your face or a Jace fatesealing you.
Snapcaster + REB is a VERY strong play, Snapcaster on discard is just awful because against combo they'll just go off without a problem since you'll be tapped out/down/low.
REB can and will prevent your opponent from resolving a Time Spiral or, if drawn off Time Spiral is VERY strong, same situation, discard sucks.
Against combo they're not even close, if your opponent know how to play (be it S&T, ANT or Spiral Tide) you'll hardly ever hit something relevant with discard after the first cantrip and a properly cast Ponder or Brainstorm can let them win the game after your 1 or 2 discard spell. The key against combo is controlling the stack, because you don't have the tools to control their hand (unlike Esper Blade or Team America), unless you completely twist your MD with something like 8-10 slots in the SB devoted to discard.
Against most of the meta, topdecking discard after turn 5 is like drawing a blank because they're empty handed, while REB can still prevent them from topdecking.
In any way you look at it, discard is ALWAYS inferior to REB, no matter what and if you test it won't take long to realize.
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Isn't that what Force of Will and Counterspell do already?
Do you REALLY 2:1 yourself in the early turns to hinder their cantrips?
Call me stupid, but I really prefer a 1 mana Counterspell rather then give them a free Hymn to Tourach for :u: .
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Discard is very strong in the control mirror. REB can destroy an opponent's Jace, but discard can get rid of the opponent's strongest card while letting me know whether it is safe to resolve my own Jace or not. You can argue that REB is better, but it doesn't change the fact that discard is also strong in the control mirror. Being able to kill Delver is nice, but discard is pretty good against Delver decks too, and discard is stronger against SNT Combo decks. If you prefer REB, that's fine. But calling the black splash "just worse" is wrong.
I'm not saying discard is bad in the Mirror or against control or combo, it's just that REB is always better because it's a good topdeck in any situation while discard isn't, making it worse.
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
The quality difference between Sulfur Elemental and Engineered Plague alone is huge, and since Goblins is one of this decks most difficult matchups, the black splash seems "just better" to me.
EPlague is indeed better in the Goblin MU than what red can offer (Pyroclasm at best) but splashing for a card that is relevant in a single MU (and having to make do with discard spells in the other matches) opposed to splashing for a colour that gives you a card that is relevant against most of the field, for me is a good trade, even if I don't get anything for the Goblin MU.
Needles and additional removal usually made it for me and can make the MU much more playable.
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Sure, but those decks also run more creature removal than enchantment removal, so it's more vulnerable than Engineered Plague. But the bigger issue is that E Plague is relevant against more decks. Last time I checked, this deck does a pretty good job of beating up on Maverick, but has a tough time with Goblins. If you're worried about Thalia's, you may be playing the deck wrong.
I'd love to be in a metagame filled with Carebears that leave removal in against a deck with 0-3 creatures!!
That'd make things much easier!
I'm not worried of the Maverick MU at all, but in case you didn't notice Junk and Esper Blade are on the rise and having a good solution to Lingering Souls, Elspeth tokens, Mother of Runes and the like that does its job even if it dies to Decay is better than any option that black can give.
Not to mention, how they speed up your clock with Angel tokens dealing 25% more damage!
And if all that wasn't enough to prefer red over black, let's add that anything in red can be instant speed (REB, Pyroblast, Sulfur Element and I'd play Slice and Dice before Pyroclasm) while black only has sorcery speed answers (Dread of Night, discard, EPlague) that are much worse with Snapcaster.
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Originally Posted by
twndomn
1. Show and Tell
I tried Meddling Mage, it was FAIL. Show and Tell Almost Always SB-in Pyroblast/REB. MM has to name Burning Wish, Show and Tell, but still be vulnerable to Pyroblast/REB, huge waste. Agasint Show and Tell,
Flusterstorm is much more userful.
2. EsperBlade
More
Supreme Verdict. You have to prepare Supreme Verdict in the SB against Delver anyway. This match-up is very skill intensive and tends to be drawn out attrition war. If you manage to get CB-T on board and you take care of Vindicate/EE nicely, you're on your way to victory.
3. Goblins
At the end of the day, if you survive first wave of Goblin from his opening hand, you want to drop
Humility. Terminus is almost useless after first wave. Moat does not stop Goblin from seige-gang your life to zero; yet you most likely have spent your StP on the initial wave of Goblin already. Also, having Humility in the SB is good against Show and Tell as well, that's another incentive to run Humility over Moat, in addition to the price.
Agree on all three points, S&T can be beaten with superior control of the stack via Flusterstorm, REB, Pierce and whatnot, Counterspells usually comes out because 2 > 1.
Agains Gobbos with Terminus, Path/StP + Snpcaster, Snapcaster chumpblocks and Needles/Disenchant for their Vials is very playable.
Im not sure why people still defend Moat, since against all the field Humility is just much better: Maverick, Goblins and half of the S&T means of winning are shut down by it, while Moat does next to nothing against Mav and S&T while being just a speed bump for Goblins that can still Siege-Gang/Lightning Carfter/Sharpshooter you out of the game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Jiaozy
Im not sure why people still defend Moat, since against all the field Humility is just much better: Maverick, Goblins and half of the S&T means of winning are shut down by it, while Moat does next to nothing against Mav and S&T while being just a speed bump for Goblins that can still Siege-Gang/Lightning Carfter/Sharpshooter you out of the game.
The main reason why I don't like Humility is because it turns our Angel tokens and Cliques into 1/1 dorks, making you rely on Jace to win. It also comes in for most of the same MUs as Baneslayer, which makes them awkward SB buddies. I'm not sure I like either one, but at least Moat works favorably with Angels, Cliques, and Baneslayers.
As far as the splashes, Red is far superior. Stoneblade and BUG can make better use of discard because they have more of a clock. As much as I want to run my foil Vindicates and E. Plagues... it's just not worth it.
On a different note... what is the consensus on whether or not to side out Counterbalance against Abrupt Decay decks? In testing against the latest BUG builds (Delver/Tombstalker/Hymn), I've found that they have very few targets for Abrupt Decay outside of Counterbalance and Clique. A lot of times they'll even end up hitting Angel tokens because their hand is full of dead Abrupt Decays. I'd almost think it's correct for BUG to side them out, but it sounds so wrong that I don't think many BUG players will.
And what do people think of Luminarch Ascension? It definitely has a ton of potential in the Mirror, but I'm not sure how useful it is outside of that. I've imagined wanting it against the oddball Enchantress/Pox player before, but again I'm not sure if this warrants a SB slot.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Dzra
The main reason why I don't like Humility is because it turns our Angel tokens and Cliques into 1/1 dorks, making you rely on Jace to win. It also comes in for most of the same MUs as Baneslayer, which makes them awkward SB buddies. I'm not sure I like either one, but at least Moat works favorably with Angels, Cliques, and Baneslayers.
As far as the splashes, Red is far superior. Stoneblade and BUG can make better use of discard because they have more of a clock. As much as I want to run my foil Vindicates and E. Plagues... it's just not worth it.
On a different note... what is the consensus on whether or not to side out Counterbalance against Abrupt Decay decks? In testing against the latest BUG builds (Delver/Tombstalker/Hymn), I've found that they have very few targets for Abrupt Decay outside of Counterbalance and Clique. A lot of times they'll even end up hitting Angel tokens because their hand is full of dead Abrupt Decays. I'd almost think it's correct for BUG to side them out, but it sounds so wrong that I don't think many BUG players will.
And what do people think of Luminarch Ascension? It definitely has a ton of potential in the Mirror, but I'm not sure how useful it is outside of that. I've imagined wanting it against the oddball Enchantress/Pox player before, but again I'm not sure if this warrants a SB slot.
1. You should just do a strict card by card comparison: Humility vs Moat in the SB. Humility is much more versatile in most match-ups. Now you attempt to justify Moat by bring in other cards, which is a pretty lame argument. Ok, say I give you that false argument, Clique is a useless SB card against Aggro. Baneslayer has a big target that says please dismember me. By the time you resolve Baneslayer, I'm not sure if Goblins or Islandwalking Merfolks would care, when they're about to beat you more than the 5 lives you would have gained.
2. In Miracle vs BUG, it's all about war of attrition and good trades; in fact, BUG has more threats (goyf, liliana...). If you really want to beat BUG, you can try Nevinyrral's Disk. Usually they only run 1~2 Maelstrom Pulse/Pernicious Deed. Some recent lists seem to drop Deed all together. Verdict and Termius are not as strong due to discard (if liliana resolves too early).
3. Luminarch is pretty useless outside of Mirror, unless you play against land.dec. Decree of Justice has more versatility, other than it's good in Mirror.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thanks for being an asshole, since I clearly don't understand the English language enough for you to quote a dictionary. I applaud you sir, you have outdone yourself. However, if you expect any sort of intelligent response back, unfortunately, I'm out of give-a-fucks.
Aside from your idiocy, you go on continuing to think that the red splash is better than the black splash, and that REB is strictly superior to discard in everyway, and that the red splash does anything to shore up your actual bad matchups, and that Sulfur Elemental is actually worth space in the 75. I clearly don't know anything about how this deck operates. Again, congratulations on your fine display of internet machismo.
EDIT: Decided to throw out a PRO TIP for you...
Countering their cantrips is fucking... wait for it... retarded. You're not Tempo Thresh, you don't have the clock for that be an even remotely decent play. It's an awful play decision. You're much better off just putting all your eggs into the counter SNT basket and hoping you can find an O Ring/D Sphere, clock them with Clique, stick a Jace and get good fateseals, or drop a big Entreat, before they finally do resolve an SNT.
Discard is strong here because they spend effort sculpting a hand, and then you pick it apart, and know exactly how to play around the rest. But what do I know? I mean, I don't even know what the word flexible means, right?
