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The player actually said that he regretted not putting in the 4th Cabal Therapy. I can see cutting a Chancellor or a Shambling Shell for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Ballustrade is actually great as you don't need to pay anything to flip your deck. That 7 Life can mean life or death :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Ballustrade forces you to run no lands for max efficiency, which hurts your ability to fight against hate cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
So I played Manaless at Philly yesterday to a tune of 5-4. First lost was to Goblins by Jim Davis... so that's not as bad I guess. Then I lost to a U/W/R Delver/Geist deck... Smart opponent, bad flips, such is life. I punted by not desideboarding correctly against a winnable Infi-Life Combo Pod/Rector/Nightmare deck, and I lost to ANT. Losing to ANT didn't hurt my feelings, all the others could have been wins.
I won against two D&T decks, Shardless BUG, U/W/R Delver/Geist, and RUG.
My List-
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Dryad Arbor
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 3 Riftstone Portal
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
I'm a fan of the Ghasts, and of Salvage. More of my games were won by creature damage making huge swaths of zombies and beating down with tokens and Ickys, Shadows and Ghast. When unmolested, I'd combo kill, but in SB games Flayer usually left and that meant beats. I don't think the Reverent Silences are necessary, and at times I did miss removal spells- thinking -2 R.Silences, -1 Riftstone Portal, +3 Shoals (corner cases of killing Elesh, Griz, Archon). Chancellors usually came in, Arbors sometimes left, got to use Nature's Claim (but didn't win game), Ray of Revelation got a little play, better as a threat than anything else. Riftstone was good, one in yard, one in hand, best of both worlds.
Ballustrade is a gold fish card that doesn't take into consideration what happens when the opponent Surgical Extractions your Narcomoebas, Bridges from Below or Cabal Therapys on the combos ability to go off, where Griselbrand is always Griselbrand, a 7/7 Flying, Life Link that at the very least will either establish a board presence, Dredge X cards or draw a new hand no matter what the opponent has done to your deck or graveyard and unlike Ballustrade Spry, Griselbrand is actually good off of an opponent's Show&Tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
Not to mention, Ballustrade Spy limits your SBing options, instead of SBing out any 8 cards, 4 of those 8 cards have to be Ballustrade Spy and Flayer of the Hatebound - and Flayer of the Hatebound is strictly worse than Angel of Despair or now Ashen Rider -
About the only, conceivable reason to play Ballustrade Spy is if you want to save 40$ on 3 Griselbrands and an Angel of Despair and you plan to SB out your Dread Return targets for Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghasts or lands + answers etc. and rely on only Golgari Grave Troll, Chancellor of the Annex or Phantasmagorian beat down off Dread Return.
That combo package is about as clearly functional in the deck as it is clearly worse IMO.
The guy played against my buddy whom I also played piloting Shardless BUG, but Theo was doing something correct to top 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Says the guy who placed 81st
I'm sure it's functional, I just think it's clearly worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
Perhaps Balustrade manaless dredge is to Griselbrand manaless bridge what Belcher is to other storm decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
There's a trade-off between raw power and speed on the one hand, and flexibility and resilience on the other. The two different deck styles appeal to different players, but that doesn't mean one is clearly worse.
I will try to argument the best I can, but keep in mind that english isn't my native language. I hope it's understandable.
I Don't think you guys have play-tested with Balustrade Spy at all, he is way more resilient than you are giving him credit.
First of, he is not an "All in" card. You can just Dread Return a Golgari Thug to give yourself multiple turns if needed, and kill with Zombies + Ichorids.
Second, Final Fortune said something about Spy being bad vs Triple Surgical Extraction, I mean, why would you even DR him before discarding his entire hand with Therapies? And how often do you face a Triple S.E. hand? Would Griselbrand even win that game?
Third, you don't need a Dredger in the yard to combo with spy, so he might be better after a Graveyard wipe or against multiple extractions on your dredgers.
And lastly, he is a good DR target even if you are low on health, this is relevant if you are facing Delver, Burn, Goblins, etc
I have to admit though, he does limit your Sideboard options, and you must side him out everytime you need your "Reverent Silence package"
I don't think he is better than griselbrand, but he is not worse either.
Hope its not too bad to read...
Because good players can succeed with slightly sub-optimal lists? If people are playing bad lists that should make you want to go and winn some free cash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
These are my thoughts as well lol It's like saying you refuse to play because the people that play suck??Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
I just don't like playing in Opens. I also prefer to stick to tournaments closer to home these days because I'm expecting a daughter.
I would like to say I have played with both and spy is honestly pretty good. The one main thing about spy is the speed and how it makes the deck more resistant to super aggro decks where you don't have the 7 life to pay. I think he picked the right build for the meta that was expecting more fair decks like what was seen.
Yes, Spy limits your sideboard tech. :frown:
Yes, it like every Dredge deck it is susceptible to triple Surgical Extractions. :eyebrow:
The upside of the deck is he went for full out speed. Ya, he limited his sideboard, but how many games have you had to side out pieces of the deck for cards that you may or may not get in your opening 7+1 cards. He chose the go or go home method and it payed off. Outside of Hollywood he has done better than 99% of us with this "Sub-Optimal" build.
The only think I think he did wrong was not having the 4th Cabal Therapy which he openly regretted.
I didn't mean 3xSurgical Extraction, I meant a single Surgical Extraction exiling a single component of the deck that Ballustrade Spy needs in order to continue the combo, for instance if you DR Ballustrade Spy and you've had Bridge from Below RFGed then you can't easily tripple Dread Return for the Flayer/Troll kill. I realize there are other routes that you could potentially take by DRing Golgari Thug and waiting to unleash a swarm of Ichorids and Nether Shadows etc., but I think removing a single, important peace of the deck makes it much harder to win with Balustrade Spy than it does with Griselbrand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Modus Pwnens
So it's not clearly better than Griselbrand, it's clearly worse than Griselbrand vs Show&Tell and I'm not certain it's that much better in low life situations it is vs a 7/7 Flying Life Link.
It did occur to me tho' that I board out DR targets in every match up vs Surgical Extraction, so it's probably not as bad regarding SBing in the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast plan as I thought.
I've played both builds and I like the Griselbrand build better, without question.
Griselbrand effectively flips your deck as Spy would, but he's also a flying lifelink beat stick, which is much more impressive than a 2/3 flying vampire. Since the Spy does everything at once, it's a lot easier for an opponent to respond to the various triggers and screw us, where as, Griz represents the "slow and steady" dredge approach. It didn't bite him in the butt, obviously, but not having a shuffle back - Blightsteel or Prog. also meant he "had to win" the turn he flipped his library. If anything about his list, I would've went one less spy and one shuffle back.
I agree with Final Fortune, Griz > Spy. Not sure the benefit of Spy, maybe in SB options. My SB cards did some work, but not beaucoup work. I did miss the removal, and am thinking of ways to add it back in, at least to the SB. And there was the one lost to ANT I had, that Theo's SB prepared for that mine did not.
-2 Reverent Silence, -1 Riftstone Portal; +3 Sickening Shoal
SB: 3 Sickening Shoal
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 2 Riftstone Portal
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
I rarely win games with anti hate. Both D&T and miracle have ways to deal with it, and the tempo loss for casting it is crucial against goblin. I think i'll try a sideboard focused on the bad matchups and ignore rip. Unmask kinda deals with it, and it's much better against storm.
Unmask is really great with Chancellor of the Annex. That was my way around rest in piece without loosing a turn till I could discard to set up my dredging. My Spy build hand room for Chancellor's in the main which made it really nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrasher
This shouldn't work with Unmask or Shoal since you're exiling the card you pitch, not discarding it. Unless you're targeting yourself with Unmask? Either way, Shoal for sure doesn't work and 3 for 0-ing yourself with UnmaskQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
just to get it in the yard seems awful.
+1, a couple people have been saying 'discard' to cards that exile. I found that confusing...Quote:
Originally Posted by birdbrains
Allow me to clarify what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
Turn 0
Reveal Chancellor of the Annex.
Turn one. (Opponent)
Opponent drops a land pass.
Turn one. (Me)
Draw. Discard.
Turn two. (Opponent)
They pay two mana and make there turn one play.
Turn two (Me)
Dredge, Unmask.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, this is still situational given that I got a Chancellor of the Annex and Unmask in my opening hand. There is still the possibility that they will just turn one ditch a something to get countered, turn two Rest in Piece/Other hate.
There is the the option of targeting yourself with Unmask when in the face of Thoughtseize or other hand hate.
was the part I was talking about. the way I'm understanding what you're saying is you use the Angel to satisfy the "remove a black card in your hand from the game" requirement by pitching the card to the graveyard so you can dread return it.Quote:
I've actually won games because I had Angel after discarding it to Unmask, Sickening Shoal