[OLD] UGw Threshold

@Enlightned Tutor: I agree Adan here. There is no reason what so ever that you need this card in threshold. The deck has more then enough digging power.

@The mana bases: When ever I run Threshold, no matter the color combonations I always run basics. Usally 2x Island 1x Forest and 1x the splash color. As Angry Troll points out, Moon effects put you in a world of hurt without some basics.

@Engineered Explosives: I'm rather surpised that more lists don't include them SB or MD. Why is that? I've found them to be quite usefull in alot of matches.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

UGW Land Base:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Now, of these three manabases, which one is the strongest?

The biggest problem I have with four and five color Thresh lists, and even Adan's three color list (congratulations on the finish, though), is that you are wrecked by decks like Imperial Painter, Dragon Stompy, and Survival that run Blood Moon effects. True, Thoughtseize is amazing in all these matchups, but a topdecked Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon ends the game. Thoughtseize, Daze, Force, and Counterbalance are all great, but against a deck like Dragonstompy and Survival with a billion must-counter cards, making Magus another game winning bomb for them is a terrible idea.

Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Wasteland + Loam, and Price of Progress are all cards that see play that are strong against Thresh. However, without a single basic in the deck, you are needlessly opening yourself to randomly losing games to bad decks.

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I always run that manabase because it looks like this:

4 Tropical Island, german fbb
4 Tundra, german fbb
4 Flooded Strand, japanese
4 Polluted Delta, japanese
1 Island, Alpha

No bullshit. The antisynergy of the non-Island lands with Daze and Counterbalance is just secundary... No, that is the main reason why I don't run any non-Island lands. I always have that kind of bad luck.

But if you want to play the manabase which is less vulnerable to Moon-Effects, there are 2 alternative Manabases. I'd play Der_imaginäre_Freund's I guess which consists of:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

The good thing is that you are very flexible and having a huge amount of fetchlands makes Brainstorm INSANE. You can also compensate the high permanentcount. But it has got a terrible anti-synergy with Predict and having less "real" lands may still weaken you against Wastelands or Ghost Quarters or similar shenanigans (10 of your lands are quasi non-permanent, 4 of them can be wasted, 3 of them are NEARLY invincible).

The Plains is not really necessary, but in the scenarios you described it seems to make sense because you still have active StoPs unter Moon-Effects.

But I still don't really like it since running less than 16 blue sources can be disturbing.

Now after these points, I can show you the other alternative manabase which is more simple, just cut the Deltas from my manabase and add 3 Heaths and 1 Forest:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest

The Forest as the 17th land seems to be acceptable.

Those bases all have 17 lands which I found very useful since I am playing cards like Oblivion Ring and Mystic Enforcer. Mystic Enforcer is simply the brute force which wins games within 3 Turns, that is just mighty.

Running a manabase like Brushwagg described it (or simply something like Clemens' manabase) would - in my opinion - require you to run 18 lands which is simply too much. I am only running 17 lands because of the Enforcers, but otherwise there would be no need since you can maintain you manabase very well if you play your cantrips skillfully.

Which manabase you play is dependant on your approach to Threshold and your meta of course. But I am not really afraid of either Dragon or Painter.
If I lose, I will accept that (I can say this here since you never saw my reactions after a humiliating defeat, haha).

I am still of the opinion that UGW is more flexible in compairison to 5color Thresh. The strange thing is, the more I play UGW Threshold, the more I am of the opinion that every Threshold variant simply HAS to include 2-3 Pithing Needles in their 75. They have been way more versatile than Thoughtseize would have been, maybe also because they are way more proactive and also help when they topdeck the trash you played Needle on.

That might also be the reason why Engineered Explosive is seldom played over Needles, they are as reactive as Oblivion Ring but way more manaintensive. Oblivion Ring gets the job done instantaneously and helps you against deck like Clemens' Landstill. And if not, they are like Removal No. 5-6. Try to handle Humility with Explosive...

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Running a manabase like Brushwagg described it (or simply something like Clemens' manabase) would - in my opinion - require you to run 18 lands which is simply too much.

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No I run 17 just fine. I'm never colored screwed. I just like to know if I'm playing a deck with moon effects/wastelands I'm not locked out (which there are a few decks in my meta that show every week).

@EE vs other stuff: The reason I go for E.E. over MD needle or O. Ring is the fact that it deals with multiple problems ie: Empty the Warrens tokens (Bryant Cook is in my meta)/ Zombie tokens etc... I tried O. Ring and found it not to my liking.

Here's the list I usally run.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [LRW] Island (3)
1 [RAV] Forest (3)
1 [CHK] Plains (3)
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Tundra
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Snapback
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

MD Grips? I don't see much reason not to play O. Rings over grips in the main :3

Snapback? Huh...

Dreadstill, right?

Interesting list. I like it.

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MD Grips? I don't see much reason not to play O. Rings over grips in the main :3

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Ok I feel I have to address this. Grip in the main is more of a meta game choice. In Syracuse I face Painters, Counterbalances, Humility, Survival, etc.. all of which I want gone ASAP. Not to mention I found myself siding them in more often then not, so I moved them MD.

O. Ring does get rid of the above but at Sorcery speed. I like the fact I can Grip at EOT.

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Snapback? Huh...

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Kinda for my meta again. I was looking for another out against Magus of the Moon and this one is "free".

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Interesting list. I like it.

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Thank you. It's been good to me for the most part.

I like non-contemporary lists. Your's is rather strong. I like seeing how thresh lists adapt to different metas.

On the note of Magus, do you feel that BEBs are insufficent? I'm just wondering because BEBs hit Blood Moon too, so perhaps it's something to test, although I'm assuming you already have.

@Adan, et. all: Given that red has swans and the power of the combo finish or tempo version the reason to play this version is that:

it has swords to plowshares?

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

@Adan, et. all: Given that red has swans and the power of the combo finish or tempo version the reason to play this version is that:

it has swords to plowshares?

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That, and Oblivion Ring. There's also the possibility that something good could come out of Alara, like that Winter-Orb-for-dudes Angel.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

@Adan, et. all: Given that red has swans and the power of the combo finish or tempo version the reason to play this version is that:

it has swords to plowshares?

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Yes. That and Mystic Enforcer.

In nowadays metagame you absolutely need to be prepared to kill Goyf. StP kills Goyf. Same is true for threshed Enforcer, which also has the ability to fly over ground stalls and be a 3,33 turn clock with Pro:Tombstalker.

With white you also have excellent Sideboard options in form of Gaddock Teeg for the Landstill-Matchup (he stops Wrath/Humility/EE, their and our Forces and FoF if they play that, and in addition he stops the mighty hardcast Decree :tongue: ), Wheel of Sun and Moon (I know that this card can be played in all other Threshlists, too but in this one you can cast it easier due to white and green mana), Meddling Mage (again against Landstill and obv. Combo, maybe in the mirror usable, against Other Threshlists (that don't splash white) pretty good as you can stop cards like their removal (Smother/Demise) Combocards (Swans/Chain), their solution against CB/Top (Grip/Predator), or even Goyf if you have one or two) and last but not least good ol' Armageddon. This buddy is only good in the LS MU, but it's ok to have 2 copies of them in the board as they are good against every Controldeck (play 1-2 Critters, at best a Mongoose or two as those can't be killed by a topdecked Land into StoP, Geddon the lands away and start the beatings).

Good things about StoP and Enforcer (and maybe additional Hoofprints) were already pointed out.

This is interesting, I can use my PS3 to post on TS...

Well, Joon and Sasa already gave a good description of what White has got to offer. It has got a lot of versatile and useful cards which allows us to have enough space for cards like Pithing Needle and such, hence the huge flexibility without busting your manabase or removal.

This is pretty much the conclusion I've made right after the German Legacy Champs since I've always had my best results with UGW Threshold.

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Originally Posted by Adan

This is interesting, I can use my PS3 to post on TS...

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Poser :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Adan

This is pretty much the conclusion I've made right after the German Legacy Champs since I've always had my best results with UGW Threshold.

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What do you think about these Manabases with 3-4 Basics (1-2 Island/1 Forest/ 1 Plains)? I don't like them, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that, Mr Scrubtastic.
At the moment I play 8 Fetch/8 Dual/1 Island and I'm pretty happy with it. maybe adding one Forest instead of a tropical and Heaths instead of Deltas could be efficient but I generally dislike those 3-4 Basic lists due the fact I'll never run less than 4 Daze.

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What do you think about these Manabases with 3-4 Basics (1-2 Island/1 Forest/ 1 Plains)? I don't like them, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that, Mr Scrubtastic.
At the moment I play 8 Fetch/8 Dual/1 Island and I'm pretty happy with it. maybe adding one Forest instead of a tropical and Heaths instead of Deltas could be efficient but I generally dislike those 3-4 Basic lists due the fact I'll never run less than 4 Daze.

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I say each to there own. Me personally I don't like to scoop it up to Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon and non-basic hate.

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On the note of Magus, do you feel that BEBs are insufficent?

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BEB's are more narrow. I can bring in Snap Back against other non-red decks as well. I mean BEB is fine but Snap Back seems to be more useful to me.

Has anyone reached an agreement on whether 17 or 18 lands is the correct number?

I'm still wondering which is correct. I do play Daze.

My manabase looks like this...

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

If I went to 18 lands, I would...

+1 Forest

This is because the only white cards in my list are 4 StP and 2 Mystic Enforcer (both green and white). But I run 4 Mongeese, 4 Goyfs, 2 Trygon Predators maindeck so I am a lot more reliant on green than I am on white.

Here is my list if you're curious.

Please critique the crap out of it so I can improve it...

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 StP

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Predict
3 Daze

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Once again, please critique the crap out of it.

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Also, I think it would be fruitful for us to list ALL the very best possible sideboard cards we have to choose from.

Here is what I can think of...

Trygon Predator
Veldalken Shackles
Pithing Needle
BEB
EE
Tormod's Crypt
Krosan Grip
Oblivion Ring (or is this a card that only makes sense in the maindeck)

Please feel free to add to it.

I would definitely run the 4th Heath as your 18th land. Running another non-island card would just totally screw up hands. You only need one basic forest against Wasteland. This will give you more access to both white and green, and it is another shuffle effect.

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Originally Posted by Joon

With white you also have excellent Sideboard options..

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QFT

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Originally Posted by Joon

What do you think about these Manabases with 3-4 Basics (1-2 Island/1 Forest/ 1 Plains)? I don't like them, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that, Mr Scrubtastic.
At the moment I play 8 Fetch/8 Dual/1 Island and I'm pretty happy with it. maybe adding one Forest instead of a tropical and Heaths instead of Deltas could be efficient but I generally dislike those 3-4 Basic lists due the fact I'll never run less than 4 Daze.

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

I say each to there own. Me personally I don't like to scoop it up to Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon and non-basic hate.

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Again: QFT.
I dont like to lose to Wastelock/Moon effects. And with 2/1/1 basics I still got chance to dodge it, even though little one. (Wastelock is much less dangerous than Moon, because Moon can screw you on turn 0.)
I have never had problems with Daze. (I have much more problems with FoW, even tough I play 23 blue spells.:confused:)
Or better said - inability to cast Daze is not the main reason to be afraid of non-Islands, because if I cannot play Daze (spell that reads "have an Island to play me"), I also cannot play BS and Ponder, which means that whole my plan was somehow ruined.
Still, I will never take those basics out. It gives me a chance against dominating decks of format (LS, Loam) and against frequently used hate (Moon, Wastes). Last but not least, I like the symmetry: 4+4 fetches, 3+3 duals, 2+2 basics.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I would definitely run the 4th Heath as your 18th land. Running another non-island card would just totally screw up hands. You only need one basic forest against Wasteland. This will give you more access to both white and green, and it is another shuffle effect.

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This is true.
BTW, I cannot understand, how can you ppl play with 17 lands.. (Born lucky?)
With 18 lands I mull so often that I would be very cautious to take another land out. Esp. with Enforcer..



NQ report:

list:
8 fetches
6 duals
4 basics

4 gooses
4 goyven
2 bears
2 enforcers

4 bs
4 daze
4 Fow
3 counterspell
4 stp

4 ponder

1 ee
3 sdt

3 cb


x needle
1 crypt
2 ee
2 grip
2 aether flux
3 propaganda

or something like this, lazy to look for the deck..



I played NQGw during yesterdays tournament (8 ppl: me, Dragon Stompy, 2x Affi, Ceph. Breakfast, NQGr, Grb homebrew, RW homebrew) What a meta :tongue:


Round 1, Tom, Breakfast:

g1: I won the dice roll, start some assault, but I lack FoW against his Vial. He hardcast Cephalid, then taps Vial.
"Rather than StP Cephalid in response to Vial, you may choose to lose the game."
Yep, I made that mistake. I thought that I could sword the Ghoul, but I forget the Therapies. Even though Tom did not Therapied my StP (because he had all his combo in hand), my StP was useless - he played Reveilark kill. I StP Feeder in resp to saccing Reveilark, but 8 zombies went the distance.

In: crypt, EE, ganda (sh!t, but stops zombies), needle

g2 and g3 I won on the backs of crypt and esp. Counterbalance. In g3 I vandalize my EE to make Enforcer fly, but we made some mistake, so after I attacked, he had one life left. Nonetheless, I was in total ctrl, while he was in total topdeck, so I won the next turn.


Round 2, Martin, Grb homebrew.

g1:
him: elf
me: tundra
him: boa (dazed)
me: tundra
him: boa (dazed)
me: tundra
him: ohran (dazed)
me: tundra
.
.
.
him: Jitte (CBed)
.
.
.
him: tap Ascetic, boa, boa, (StP, blocking: Bear, Goose)
.
.
.
me: tap enforcer (18-6)
me: tap enforcer (12-6)
me: tap enforcer (gg)

In: EE, Needle,

g2:
him: bop
me: fetch
him: rancor bop (stp)
him: bop
me: land
him: rancor bop (stp)
me: goose
him: elf (still on one land!)
me: EE@1, crack
him: 0
me: enforcer (hand: Fow, Counterspell, CB, BS)
him: "gg"

I never seen any black or red card from him.. but he played fetches and Ravnica duals..


Round 3, Petr, Affinity

During shuffling he revealed that he lost two cards. We cannot find them even under the table, in wallet, etc. He calls judge, gets game loss and two basics. Before we start the game, we once again looked for the cards, but did not find them. He said he wanna know what he lost, at least..
We arranged the deck on the table and found that he lost Myr Enforcer and Arcb. Worker - not so terrible, it could have been Ravager or Nexus..
Petr than he said that it is irrelevant to play, as I have seen his deck, he has GL and lacks cards. I said Ok. This means I won the prize.
Than we chat and search his belongings for missing cards, but could not find them still. (not a question of money, but of principle - heck, he does not suffer of Alzheimer yet, does he?). Found: 0.
He said ok, go for your prize.
I looked around and on the next table I found: the missing Myr and Worker!
So I said him to shuffle it and start the g2.

g2:
I was little bit afraid, because Affi is somehow hard MU, but he mulled to five, lost and with his previous GL this means:

I WON TEH FUCKING DUAL LAND!!!

So I took Dimir Aqueduct and went to the pub.



Pub reprot:
Beer, lost to Affi, won, won, lost, beer, lost, won, lost, beer, potato plaster, beer, lost, go home.

The End.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I would definitely run the 4th Heath as your 18th land. Running another non-island card would just totally screw up hands.

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I would agree on a fetch over a Forest, but the reason you stated does not apply: since he's cutting a spell for it rather than a blue land, running an extra Forest would not affect the number of hands he has to mulligan for lack of Islands.

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

BTW, I cannot understand, how can you ppl play with 17 lands.. (Born lucky?)
With 18 lands I mull so often that I would be very cautious to take another land out. Esp. with Enforcer..

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I can't speak for others, but my current (yet maybe a bit outdated / soon to be updated, but that's not the issue) list runs 17 lands and it's just fine - when i have trouble with land, it's because i see too much of it. As a reference, here's the list :

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// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [b] Tropical Island
3 [b] Tundra
1 [PT] Forest (1)
2 [APL] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [6E] Serenity
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

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I guess running 12 cantrips (4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Predict) compared to your 8 ones helps, but still, with the additional Tops, you really should have enough filtering power to support 17 lands.

Now, of course, your list also runs the iconic UU Counterspell, which doesn't seem at home in a Thresh list, because you're supposed to be low on land and use it every turn, barring the occasional one mana you'll save for Top activation / eot BS. Which is also why the deck runs 8 free counters... you simply can't expect to manage keeping enough mana open for a UU counter.

Now, I'm not saying that CS is a bad choice in your list (maybe your meta justifies it, or anything else), but what is clear to me is that running it solely prevents you from playing 17 lands, and what you're experiencing (ie troubles even at 18 lands + mana bears) doesn't surprise me at all. I have to admit that I can't see how they could worth the trouble without at least 19 or 20 lands, which in turn would call for a different kind of deck altogether.

So, once again unless you have a very specific reason for really needing them, i'd suggest to simply get rid of them, free a land slot by going 17 lands, and replace those slots with some additonal filtering (1-2 predict / portent ?) & utility/removal (needle, oring, another ee ?).

if you want to keep the counterspell maindeck..

i would try cutting the 2 trygon predator (unless your meta is high on dangerous arti and enchant) for two additionala cantrip. Portent comes to my mind. Just to stabilize your deck. Doing so, you can go back to 17 lands :)

I would also just play 2 CS (counterspell). With the 1 cut, i guess you can put in EE, o ring, or whatever cards you want

Robert

Thank you. That's a good suggestion. I was playing Trygon Predator because I see a lot of random artifacts (Chrome Mox, Isochron Scepter etc) but honestly, I don't see too many artifacts/enchantments that I absolutely have to stop (Chalice, Blood Moon etc) so I guess I don't need to maindeck it.

I have never been a fan of Portent though. So I'm just going to play a business spell instead.

Taking that into account, here is what I am running now...

4 FoW
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
2 Enforcer

3 Sensei's Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
3 Predict
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Manamorphose
1 Counterspell

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Is the curve too top heavy to be run with just 17 lands. I could cut an Oblivion Ring for another fetchland.

I can't decide between Shackles and Counterspell. I see a lot of aggro so Shackles has been helpful.

I am also working on the sideboard right now.

Given that I already play Oblivion Ring maindeck, what cards are worth running.

Is 3 Tormod's Crypt worth sideboarding. Everyone says that it doesn't do enough against anything. But it is versatile and very cheap. Is Wheel of Sun and Moon purely superior to Tormod's Crypt?

Is 2 Engineered Explosives worth sideboarding given that I already have Oblivion Ring maindeck to deal with permanents.

Is 4 Blue Elemental Blast worth sideboarding in a deck that plays 3 Oblivion Ring and 4 StP maindeck already?

Which is the superior sideboard card, Krosan Grip or Trygon Predator. I am currently doing a 2/2 split. Is that overkill?

Thank you so much for any help.