[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Tha Gunslinga

1. Try to keep 1WW unavailable.
2. Win first.
3. Don't overcommit.

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Although Red does have a counterspell, it is fairly bad, so these are your best options. Remember, Tivadar's Crusade is a turn 3 Wrath of God. If you have a Vial out is can actually not hurt at all, since you can rebuild your board in a turn or 2 at most. Otherwise those are always good plans even in you KNOW they don't play Crusade.

On my SB:

I don't know if Thresh or Combo will be more popular at Columbus, so I don't know whether to use 3 Pyrostatic Pillar or 3 Tormod's Crypt.

umm Tividar's Crusade does nothing if you don't completely over extend, saving a matron or ringleader if it's your only goblin left works best. Cait Sith, go with Pillar. Thresh is a very good matchup for goblins. The reason I run 4 chalice is also because it buries almost every draw spell in thresh, not to mention it counters nimble mongoose, and swords to plowshares if they're running white, otherwise, it counters lightning bolt. Chalice usually resolves also, because you have so many cards they have to counter to survive. Chalice gets boarded vs boros, combo, thresh, burn, a lot of zoo variants, among other decks. Chalice is a must play 4 i think, pillar is a must play, but 3 does the trick for me.

I personally like playing Crypts over the Patrons. While this means less answers to Plague, it helps against LOTS of difficult control-decks (any Loam-based control tends to be a bitch), Reanimator, Threshold (it's still popular enough to care about) and Iggy. This is just because I don't like having SB-cards just to deal with one single card (I tend to be able to Grip at least the second Plague rather often anyways), so I guess it's a personal choice between a more versatile SB and a more specific answer to a problematic hatecard. Then there's the whole 'MD stuff'-alternative with Patrons/Pyrokinesis/such to get space for both.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Because he's affected by Plague. He dies to literally any Darkblast, Lava Dart, Plague or any other removal and he can do NOTHING against double Plague. Even multiple Kings tend to just die to Bolts or such (not to mention, it's hard to get multiples into play in due schedule in the first place; generally you could and should kill your opponent with that amount of mana and cards, provided that the slots were well-spent). Pyromancer is better anti-Plague tech too since he can end the game very effectively with one Plague in game. Patron does that too, but isn't tutorable. Still, tutors tend to be too slow against Plague anyways, which is why Patron is so good especially as it's so random meaning that it'll win you games both due to not showing up when opponent prepares for it, and due to showing up when opponent doesn't. If you must have a Goblin-answer to Plague, fit 4 Goblin Goons in between MD and SB. They'll be big even after 2 Plagues and enable all your Goblin-effects like Gempalm, Matron, Ringleader and company even with 2 Plagues in play.

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I don't believe Goblin King is meant to be an answer to Engineered Plague at all, though a pre-emptive one can on rare occasions fill this role. Goblin King is meant to grant evasion. Mostly in the mirror or against decks splashing red for burn, like Red Death or Zoo variants.

Patron isn't just against plague, I board it in vs decks with removal. I board it vs control and also vs burn (rare but can be a painful matchup). Patron is also good when your opponent is boarding in pyroclasm. I've always found loam decks to be easy matchups, and Patron is actually very good in that matchup when they get tabernacle out. Reanimator is not a good matchup, but it is winnable through ports and wastes, and it is extremely rare to see it. Patron doesn't just help vs plague, but it's als a 7/5 beatstick which makes your other guys +2+0, can be played as an instant to replace a creature already targeted for removal, and doesnt kill them at end of turn.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I don't believe Goblin King is meant to be an answer to Engineered Plague at all, though a pre-emptive one can on rare occasions fill this role. Goblin King is meant to grant evasion. Mostly in the mirror or against decks splashing red for burn, like Red Death or Zoo variants.

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I know, but we were talking about specifically his role against Engineered Plague, where he isn't very impressive. He does have some merit, but I'd rather just overwhelm than evade, and the slots are tight as it stands.

Ya there really is no need to make your guys unblockable, not to mention that any deck running red also will just burn it, so there are better cards to matron for, I'd probably just rather go for card advantage with ringleader, or maybe siege gang depending on the situation.

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I don't believe Goblin King is meant to be an answer to Engineered Plague at all...Goblin King is meant to grant evasion. Mostly in the mirror or against decks splashing red for burn, like Red Death or Zoo variants.

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You are wrong.

well it's obviously meant to answer plague, it's just not a very good answer.

It almost completely neutralizes single plague and is tutorable. Also, if you have 2 in play it not only completely neutralizes single plague (with a bonus) but avoids double plague as well. I am really starting to like it over Patron of the Akki.

If a player playing black has double plague and cant remove a king then something is wrong. King was much better as a lord. If Patron comes out at instant speed and deals at least 7 if the rest of your board is gone(whether you sac your last guy or set vial at 6). Patron may only hit once when it swings before it likely gets removed, but if you have other shrunken goblins in play they now deal at least 2 as well. If your opponent has double plague before you get double king, you have little outs. If your opponent has other removal such as vindicate (dead guy), chain lightning or lightning bolt (red death), infest, damnation darkblast, or any form of removal, then you have to rely drawing a krosan grip and rebuilding. Having outs is an important thing, especially since every black deck runs plague + other forms of removal. You should find that the ,ajority of the time your board will be wiped out against black, it's nice to be able to vial or goblin offering (if targeted by and of the above cards or any form of removal in general other than damnation) in a fat creature that can do some serious damage. The added bonus of patron is that it's also good in decks where your creatures get targeted for removal or weaker forms of mass removal, whether it's swords, pyroclasm, or forms of burn.

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Originally Posted by Awesomator

If a player playing black has double plague and cant remove a king then something is wrong. King was much better as a lord. If Patron comes out at instant speed and deals at least 7 if the rest of your board is gone(whether you sac your last guy or set vial at 6). Patron may only hit once when it swings before it likely gets removed, but if you have other shrunken goblins in play they now deal at least 2 as well. If your opponent has double plague before you get double king, you have little outs. If your opponent has other removal such as vindicate (dead guy), chain lightning or lightning bolt (red death), infest, damnation darkblast, or any form of removal, then you have to rely drawing a krosan grip and rebuilding. Having outs is an important thing, especially since every black deck runs plague + other forms of removal. You should find that the ,ajority of the time your board will be wiped out against black, it's nice to be able to vial or goblin offering (if targeted by and of the above cards or any form of removal in general other than damnation) in a fat creature that can do some serious damage. The added bonus of patron is that it's also good in decks where your creatures get targeted for removal or weaker forms of mass removal, whether it's swords, pyroclasm, or forms of burn.

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You just won another tourny sunday right? How was Patron? When did you bring him in?

Umm Sunday my 1st round was gobs I won 2-0
2nd round was aluren I won 2-0
3rd round was slivers I won 2-0
4th round was burn and I gave the win (we played it out for fun and I won 2-0).
5th round in semi finals I played against the same burn kid and beat him 2-0 again.
6th round I agreed to split for most of the prize with the mirror match I faced 1st round.

I boarded in patron vs burn and it helped like it usually does.. patron isn't worth boarding in vs aggro and thats what I played most of the time. The meta here is different so I took out the three pillars and switched them to 3 pithing needle for the day which helped when I named cavern harpy, but pillar would have done the same thing.

Just played another by the way.

1st Round - Angel Stompy. Rishadan port was MVP leaving my opponent with just an ancient tomb and one untapped plains while i swung in for the win. 2-0

2nd Round - u/w Kenji Fish. I come out of the gate quick and rush him both games. 2-0

3rd Round - Sligh. I drop a massive amount of creatures leaving a ringleader in hand, he pyroclasms my board and I instantly rebuild. 2-0

4th Round - Force of Will and I draw in.

5th Round - semi finals I get paired vs my round one opponent. I drop a huge rush of creatures and kill his equipments with tin streets. 2-0

6th round - Force of Will and I split.

Keep playing vs aggro, so Patron hasn't done well in the area I'm in, but it will be much less aggro at GP. I did board patron vs sligh since it's basically auto win if I get it out, but I never saw it.

I'm a young french player of goblin so sorry for my English mistakes.

I've play this deck since the GP Lille and I test a lot of solutions. Finally have really a base incuttable :

13 moutain
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland

4 aether vial

4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringlader
2 Sieg-gang commander
1 skirk prospector
1 goblin tinkerer
1 goblin sharpshooter

Why don't play lightning bolt ?
Because the really problem with gobbo is not the creature (and have pyrokinesis :D).

Why don't splash ?
Because the splash W give only stp (same reason of bolt) and disenchant. And disenchant help against plague, confinement and all other enchantement. But with calice with 2 counter you can't play disenchant against confinement, anarchy destroy all the really bad enchantement (confinement, worship, R/CoP:R) except plague and help against WW/AS.
The splash U for intruder alarm is funny but it is all.
The splash B for discard is a bad idea because contrary of extend gobbo have good turn one. I don't test Dralnu's crusade but it is only against plague and protection red...
I don' test the splash G. For krosian grip it is the best splash I think. I buy taiga, test and say after :).

Why don't play fetchs ?
Because one PV against aggressive deck is important because in this match-up we are the controle. And epure deck is not interesting in all game with goblin.

So a base of 58 cards.
For the 2 slots restants I test :
-1 Sieg-gang commander : Goblin is too long for an aggro and SGC is too much for the deck, two in hand is a pain. So 2 card with an Converted Cost of 5 is the maximum
-1 Kiki : he is very funny. But 3 red is hard and he have too a CC of 5. And when SGC give win against control, kiki deal two in each turn :/. Against combo we prefer a SGC for put it with lackey and kill turn3. Against aggro when you can put SGC or kiki it is you have win the game :).
-1 moutain : I think about it but finally the really good hand is with vial and 2/3 land so add a supplementary land is not good.
-1 goblin king : It is not a bad card, but he is middle. Versus first plague he help, with surprise effect after block, for moutainwalking, a +1/+1 bonus, her CC of 3 is perfect for the vial's curve. It is really interesting in the toolbox. But the cost of 2 red is to much. And in same game in mirror I can't play it because my opponant can kill me.
-second tinkerer : an 1/2 without effect in same game, I prefer only one for the tool box.
-2 pyrokinesis : don't confuse, it is not a stp or a bolt. He don't kill a creature but all the aggro in killing 3 or 4 creature without disturb the play (don't cost a turn), kill a creature of FS, kill auriok salvager. Versus combo I win 2/3 games in killed my goblins and deals the last point in sharp. It is juste an funny anecdote :p.

So usually I play 2 pyrokinesis or 1 goblin king and a new secret loose tech :)

Sibeboard :
4 calice of the void
4 pyrokinesis (or 2 pyrokinesis and 2 other slots)
3 pyrostatic pillar
2 anarchy
2 Red Elemental blast

I have really test same and same version of sideboard with 4,3,2,1 REB, 3,2,1 anarchy, 3 needle, 3,2 tormod's crypt, 4,3 pillar, 2 patron of the akki, 2,3, 4 pyrokinesis, 2 sulfurous vortex.

Finally with calice, pyrokinesis, anarchy, RED and pillar needle and tormod becomes useless. But with an other configuration tormod and needle is pretty is SB.
REB is not really good, it is hard to keep one red untap for coast it in the first turn against combo, more than two is useless against control for help play card important.
patron of the Akki is good against burn and it is a solution against 2 plague. But it is untutorisable so when you play your patron opponant play one of his stp (or other anti-creature). It is a card to conditionnal. It is a false good card.
sulfurous vortex is a pillar only against control plus versus life (played by only one person but I can't win without and I play in all tournament against he :()

The best explication is my table of Sideboard accompagned of a commentary :
-mirror : -1 tinkerer (destroy a vial in late game is useless) -1 SGC (in first game he is good but post-SB it is not optimal) for add the 2 supplementary pyrokinesis.

-******** : -4 mogg fanatic +4 calice of the void
mogg fanatic is really useless in this match-up and he have a CC of 1 and I would put calice with one counter. REB and pillar is not necessary, the best solution is the swarm. I keep the 2 pyrokinesis for can kill a big creature for assure the win.

-IGGy pop : -1 franc-tireur -3 ringlader -4 gempalm -2 pyrokinesis +4 CoTV +3 pillar + 2 REB.
ringlader is too long (and SGC in lackey is better against IGG). REB is against intuition (or mystical/brainstorm if you want but first against intuition).

-high tide : -4 gempalm -2 pyrokinesis -3 fanatic +4 CoTV +3 pillar + 2 REB
fanatic is useless with calice with one counter.

-aluren : -3 gempalm -1 pyrokinesis -1 tinkerer +3 pillar + 2 REB
The anti-creatures are not the solution VS aluren so I prefer desside him for can keep all my draw motors. I keep one gempalm for tutorise it with matrone and aluren in play and one pyrokinesis against wall in begin.

-salvager : -3 gempalm +3 pillar
I test CoTV in 1 and I prefer pillar, why kill the combo and help when salvager want control. I keep pyrokinesis why can kill an auriok salvager.

-belcher (BGR with ETW) : -2 gempalm/pyrokinesis -2 pyrokinesis +4 CoTV
Calice in 0 Turn one is a help against belcher. After shearch a goblin tinkerer an normaly you win. If he wants test a ETW you may shearch fastly a sharp and erase the table :).

-Faerie Stompy : -1 skrik -3 fanatic +2 pyrokinesis +2 REB
pyrokinesis in a creature in response in a equipement kill the only creature of FS and give you two turns (except if the creature is proR :'(). REB is totally giant....if calice in one is not in play :p. But it is most utile than fanatic and skrirk.

-burn : -2 pyrokinesis -2 fanatic +4 calice of the void
calice in one is synonym of win.

-fish UBw : Versus hanni fish don't side anythink. The MD is sufficiant and beg your opponant don't put 2 plague the two games post-SB.
I play a version of fish with proR. so you add 2 anarchy and desside 2 pyrokinesis in this situation.

-White Weenie : +2 anarchy -2 pyrokinesis
No comment

loam/confinement WUG : -4 gempalm -2 pyrokinesis -1 tinkerer -1 sharpshooter +4 CoTV +2 anarchy +2 REB
Normally you loose the first game, but after side you have two solutions for win :
-Kill before the confinement
-lock the confinement with a calice with 2 counter. He can't play life from the loam but can have skwee. So you wait anarchy.
REB can counter an intuition and help for counter a counter in anarchy/CoTV.

RG taiga/zoo/ravager : -2 Sieg-gang Commander +2 pyrokinesis

landstill : -2 pyrokinesis -3 gempalm +3 pyrostatic pillar + 2 REB

pikula : -4 gempalm -1 sharp +2 pyrokinesis +3 pyrostatic pillar
The only thread of it is the two plague. So play and kill it fast or play a pillar and kill her creatures with pyrokinesis.

pox -> -4 gempalm -1 sharp +2 pyrokinesis +3 pillar
It is the same situation.

I test in Paris and have good results.

For the actual discussion I respond in my commentary because it is a reccuring ask in goblin. And haven't an ideal solution for double plague. pikula have mana denial and can destroy your white/green-productor land, kill patron of the Akki or second goblin king. My solution (pillar and only pyrokinesis for anti-creature) is not the perfect solution but this advantage is it uselly in other match-up.

I understand that you haven't tested the R/G Goblin build and I would strongly reccomend it. I have played goblins also since the beginning. Tin Street is completely superior to tinkerer (look at the rest of the forum if you have to ask why). The color splash is very easy to access and krosan grip is very necessary (at least in our meta). Patron isn't a false good card either, although your opponent could have a swords, it is usually used in response to another spell being played where your opponent would tap out (such as vindicate for deadguy, engineered plague, etc.), also, the swords to plowshares are usually used early on lackeys, warchiefs, piledrivers and cards such as that (in your case, sharpshooter). If played right, Patron is a very strong card and it gives you five outs to smash a plague player (3 grip 2 patron). If you decide to continue running skirk prospector i would suggest still running at least one more land (the newer and more recently successful builds now run 23). Depending on what deck you're playing against having 2 siege gang in hand can be a very good thing (since I dont run prospector + shooter I don't have too many fairly weak or uncastable cards in my hand). I still feel that running the whole prospector + sharpshooter idea is almost always a win more situation and that prospector should not be in the deck. The goal of any deck is to keep your good matchups good, and to try to make your bad matchups at least 50/50, which is why I don't agree with you taking out a siege-gang. Lackey + Siege-Gang is a lot of the reason that goblins can stand up to combo game 1. Games 2 and 3 I have 4 chalice and 3 pillar, but you don't want to start at a huge disadvantage game 1. REB will help in some matches, but will do almost nothing against TES, which a lot of Iggy Pop players are now switching to. Solidarity the goal game 1 is to get vial or lackey out and either race them, or hopefully get rishadan port. Games 2 and 3 are fairly good for you if they dont run BEB. I'm not sure how your meta is, but usually when the GP comes around, players try to hate out the deck to beat (the majority of players predict some random percentages and think that gobbos is the deck they're going to face half of the day).. This means a lot of engineered plagues, chills, random enchantments and artifacts will be all over the place. Krosan grip is 100% necessary in our metagame.

As I've been saying for a while now, I find 24 lands to be incredibly powerful, especially in the mirror, but also just overall in general. It adds to your colour consistency, increases the number of keepable hands you've got and makes you more resilient to good decks (ones capable of shutting down your main engines). And yea, I too advocate the green splash if combo keeps not Top 8ing. Black is probably better in a combo-heavy field, but green is probably better in the mirror and against equipment-decks. In any case, I wouldn't play mono-red presently since those 2 are better. Sharpshooter is one card I'd really want to fit (because of the increasing use of Empty the Warrens and its generic utility), but I haven't been able to fit it yet.

Sharpshooter is good vs empty the warrens, although game one vs goblins, TES will definitely just tendrils you since you have no disruption whatsoever and the fact that sharpshooter is in use. Also, If a player uses empty the warrens it will likely be on turn one or at latest turn two, you dont get shooter online until turn 4. 24 lands is pretty heavy but definitely acceptable if you have 8 fetches, although I haven't had any mana problems with my 23 land build with 6 fetches. Black would be better in a combo heavy fields, but as you said, there isn't close to enough combo in top 8's or around to believe that it will be played heavily enough to run green black goblins at the GP.

Warchief and Lackey can make it possible to make Sharpshooter active much earlier. Also, if TES goes off without knowing what it's up against, might just be that it goes off with ETW. It has those hands too. Against that, Lackey into Warchief-Sharpshooter or something can come in handy, although usually you'll need to Lackey into Matron/Ringleader to dig for it first :/ Still, thanks to Warchief, turn 3 should be pretty doable provided that you have a Lackey (yea, they can try to block it, but it can be hard to manage that while still applying sufficient pressure with just 8 or so tokens). Without Lackey, it gets more difficult. But yea, it's much more useful post-board when you have the disruption to make them likelier to try for EtW-kill with blockers to win the race instead.

I play TES kind of a lot, it's my secondary deck, normally if I ETW on turn one it will be on average at least 12 (if ETW is necessary and the right way to go). 12 or more Goblins would be plenty of pressure, and I wouldn't do it if you had just swung with a lackey and put a warchief into play. If I did make the goblins on turn one, lackey couldnt even swing in. Ya definitely on games 2 and 3 they may try to go a little crazy early to avoid chalice and pillar.

I really test the Patron of the Akki (more than six months). In begin I have a good opinion about it. But after test and test I understand he is bad for same reasons :
-it is a conditionnal card. Yes you can sacrifie a goblin for pay it but you must keep all time mana open. So finally he comes into play after the war, when you can keep 3 manas open.
-when have a double plague in play the opponant must only kill it. And when the second plague comes you can't play the Patron so you must wait for have a vial in 6 or 6 lands. He have all the time for shearch the solution.
-it is only for the double plague and burn

And plague is dangerous only when have two in play. And all the deck why play it in SB is good match-up for gobbo. It is a hypothetic threat but it is not very dangerous. I make one tournament in each two weeks and my last remember of loose versus a double plague is in december. And the player is an infernal lucker (in the first he play hymn to tourach when I make a mulligan in 5 card and a turn one vial so in my turn two I have 0 goblin in play and 0 goblin in hand XD).
chill is not played in my metagame, but BEB/hydroblast is played. And I have REB, vial and lackey against chill. A krosian grip in a chill since I begin play in turn 4.
If I play the splash G is not for that.

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The goal of any deck is to keep your good matchups good, and to try to make your bad matchups at least 50/50

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For resume we want ameliore all the match-up :p. And it is I want make. I don't want have a respond of a card we kill me all the 150 matchs but I prefer solution I side in each tournament.

For TSH I read it is inferior than tinkerer. Because you can't destroy an artifact if you are a warchief in play, or if you play it with vial.

I'm surprise all the post are dense, without espace and airy. It is really hard read you. It is an american usage ?