[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

I've got some questions on side boarding for everyone. I'm playing UB Tendrils (LaxStorm) and wanted to know how people are side boarding? I know there's been a lot of discussion about what to bring in, but I'm curious as to what people are broarding out.

For example, against a deck like Merfolk, do we board out petals, cantrips, rituals? I'm thinking a discussion that covers what is boarded out against the following decks would be helpful considering we have a lot of discussion about what is boarded in. I understand that differing builds means the answers will vary to some degree, but in principal the cards that are boarder out should be the same; Wish based decks won't really "board" often so not really relevant to this question. However, boards that have Doomsday and those that don't are.

Match ups in question:

Counterbalance

Merfolk

Goblins

Chalice based decks

Stifle Wasteland decks
-Team America

-RUG

Junk

Assuming i wanted to play Lax Storm but only had 1 grim tutor should I go for it and if so what should I replace the other grim with?

jazzy, I have that same issue, only one tutor, my initial thoughts would be to play a maindeck doomsday, it gives us an additional bomb, and comboing off of it is still possible

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

By far the most common play you will make when you have an Infernal Tutor in your board, is going to be Wish for Infernal, Go. Winning the same turn requires 9 mana for the combo alone. You are generally trying to be playing around Daze or Duressing in the meantime.

However, in pretty much every scenario in the current format (where you're either being beaten down quickly, being comboed out or being tempoed out), Wish->Infernal, go is worse than Wish->EtW or Wish->Returns. This deck can't behave like Doomsday combo because the Infernal Tutor engine depends on either high life totals or the absence of counters/other harmful spells in the opponent's graveyard. Wish->Infernal Tutor isn't a winning play often enough to warrant cutting your most powerful engine down by one in the mainboard, even in this list that can generally make slightly more mana than TES does.

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Now that I have played around with my build, granted only on MWS, I have my arguments for 3/4 Infernal/Wish main, 1 Tutor side.

I have come acrossed many games where I am unable to iggy loop for one reason or another, or I need to go for AdN but my only Tutor is a Wish. Now while I agree Wish > Go isnt the best play, it's a lot better then losing.

Wish > go, and then winning next turn is a hell of a lot better then hoping to draw into the right stuff to make your Wish work. Maybe this is due to my lack of Red mana and Wish > ETW not always being viable, or maybe I just need to slow down a bit and think through my options. . or just get better at combo in general, but in this deck that is a little bit slower then TES, I really like the mix I have going.

Makes sense with your build. In the situations where you go Wish -> Tutor pass the turn, you would generally go Wish -> Returns with TES. You aren't playing Returns, so if IGG and EtW aren't options, Wish is kinda dead. Since TES plays Diminishing Returns, Wish is never completely dead.

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Originally Posted by Neuad

Now that I have played around with my build, granted only on MWS, I have my arguments for 3/4 Infernal/Wish main, 1 Tutor side.

I have come acrossed many games where I am unable to iggy loop for one reason or another, or I need to go for AdN but my only Tutor is a Wish. Now while I agree Wish > Go isnt the best play, it's a lot better then losing.

Wish > go, and then winning next turn is a hell of a lot better then hoping to draw into the right stuff to make your Wish work. Maybe this is due to my lack of Red mana and Wish > ETW not always being viable, or maybe I just need to slow down a bit and think through my options. . or just get better at combo in general, but in this deck that is a little bit slower then TES, I really like the mix I have going.

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how often do you find yourself with access to RR and a burning wish to empty the warrens? has it been good/ mediocore/ nice to have as a backup( leyline i guess?) or just kind of meh. i don't really seeing it help the tempo based matchups but like the increase of tutors, but alas dislike the third color. it's an interesting tradeoff.

mainly just wondering how much you have emptied the warrens and if it was worth it.

I havent play the deck in anything but MWS and goldfishing, but it's nice having it as a backup plan, and RR usually isnt too hard to come by with LED's and Petals if I'm going specifically for ETW.

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Originally Posted by Neuad

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

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Hey Neuad, I was tinkering with a singleton Tropical Island in the maindeck with Xantid Swarms to bring in against blue and a Reverent Silence to wish for against Counterbalance, but I don't like the strain on an already greedy manabase, so I'm going to test out the Doomsday package.

Do you typically board in all 4 copies of Doomsday against Counterbalance, or do you keep one in the board for Burning Wish?

I board in all 4. Wish is too slow against countertop. You want to go turn one or two doomsday. Its still a rough matchup even with doomsday.

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Originally Posted by Fossil4182

I've got some questions on side boarding for everyone. I'm playing UB Tendrils (LaxStorm) and wanted to know how people are side boarding? I know there's been a lot of discussion about what to bring in, but I'm curious as to what people are broarding out.

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Ok, since there are a million different little changes people can make in their boards depending on what they expect, here's what I have fairly standard...

1x Emrakul
1x Shell Dock
4x Doomsday
1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Rebuild
1x Ad Nauseam

This board is based around trying to help your bad matchups, but it sacrifices some flexibility when 11 or so cards are dedicated to so few matches. Tropical and Xantid come in vs. the *fishy* matchups (aggro counter based decks like fish and Team America) and the DD packages generally against Counterbalance. It's worth noting my list has -1 swamp and -1 island for 2 Chrome Mox in the main, and -1 Duress +1 Thoughtsieze. (From Ari's list)

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Match ups in question:

Counterbalance

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In:
4x Doomsday
1x Emrakul
1x Shell Dock
1x Chain of Vapor

-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Island
-2 Preordain
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Ad Nauseam

While I agree with Ari that emptying your hand to cast doomsday (LED/Infernal) can be bad, I don't like siding out all my infernals, as it's still very possible to go for an IGG/Tutor Chain kill, especially with the additional action. The way this SB is built, you are still cold to Karakas / Wasteland, so be aware. Also, you are not very likely to *surprise* anyone with this board plan any more... but it's still very strong, especially t1/t2.

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Merfolk

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1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm

-1 Island
-2 Duress
-2 Preordain

I leave in thoughtsieze over duress as it hits lords. Most fish decks have no answer's to a resolved Xantid, so they basically can do nothing (except race) about stopping you if you resolve him.

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Goblins

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1x Ad Nauseam
2x Chain of Vapor

-2 Preordain
-1 Duress

Goblins can bring in any random # of stuff, with probably the most common being mindbreak trap (lately) which is why I go -2 pre -1 duress instead of the opposite (which would be better if they bring in thoughtsiezes of their own.) Chain is good if they bring in chalice (obviously not for 1 haha) and really, sometimes it's just good to bounce their guy.

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Chalice based decks

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Haven't played a ton of these, but the Rebuild is definitely still in there for them. (as opposed to Affinity, which it usually doesn't do much more than fog)

Against Dragon Stompy you can bring in the DD package, as they run too greedy a manabase to run wasteland as well. Obviously rebuild is coming in as well, and probably the chains. Sadly, with very little experience against the deck I hate to suggest what to take out. Maybe somebody with some more experience will chime in. Otherwise... I'll try testing it soon.

Against Sea Stompy Emrakul can be a liability as most versions run 2x Sowers. I would probably treat them like a fish deck but add a chain and a rebuild.

Against the Green version... I just don't have any clue... haven't seen one in a long time though so maybe there is hope ;)

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-Team America

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1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm
+1 Ad Nauseam

-1 Underground Sea
-2 Preordain
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Grim Tutor

I take out the mox's as they are pretty bad against any deck that is attacking your hand. Preordain gets cut as it's the next *worst* spell (although I guess you could make some argument towards lotus petal here) and the Swarms come back in, as they are only slightly worse against Team America than they are against Fish. The grim trades out with a second Ad Nauseam, as it's raw power just shines against decks that run stuff like hymn.

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-RUG

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Also haven't played a ton against this deck... a lot of the lists look fairly strong vs. ANT, with a good mix of counters + ways to stop Emrakul post board. Again, somebody with more experience should add in their plan.

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Junk

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3x Doomsday
1x Ad Nauseam
2x Chain of Vapor

-2 Grim Tutor
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Lotus Petal
-1 Duress

You just want action vs. their discard. Grim Tutor is just way worse than doomsday (as you can make some pretty good doomsday piles, even pass the turn piles, when you consider that their life total is usually under strain from Bob's / Fetches.) in this match... and again, the raw power of ad Nauseam is just nuts if you get it online with enough life. Chain comes in vs. their hatebears.

Hope this helps some, of course sideboarding (and building a sideboard for that matter) has a lot of wiggle room depending on how comfortable the pilot feels with certain cards.

This is what me and Ari came up with for people without Grim Tutors.

-2 Grim Tutor
-1 Infernal Tutor (this goes to the sideboard)
-1 Island
-2 Verdant Catacombs

+3 Burning Wish
+1 Volcanic Island
+2 Bloodstained Mire

The Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor -> Iggy loop costs the same as just doing the IGGy loop with Grim Tutor, but saves you six life.

Additionally, you gain some versatility in that you can:
-Wish for Deathmark (or some other sorcery)
-Wish for Doomsday [This comes up very rarely. You have to have BBBUU floating after casting the wish.]
-Make 10 goblins on turn 1. [Again, not the primary plan, but sometimes this is correct, and EtW is better than the sorcery boomerang, which I never wished for.]

And yes, four Burning Wish was too many.

It's been my experience even when I did own 2x Grim Tutor and Ad Nauseam wasn't printed yet, 4 wishes is the best choice. One for the wish, otherwise infernal is just better. Grim is bad with ad nauseam 'cause it loses 2-3 flips with the life loss. Very relevant. Also, it's not that whoopy in the IGG loop either, as it screws with your mana, and allows your life total to be relevant. I run 4 wish, 3 IT, with the 4th in the board along w/ IGG #2. No grims, they complicate things, and never in my experience have they done anything useful other than act as a 5th IT, which isn't necessary unless all 4 IT's are already present in the main-board, and there's no reason for it to be game one in a list with 4x wishes.

I don't know, I think Ad Nauseam is the weakest link in the list. I know the speedy, win-now attitude it takes really entices a lot of players, and often even wins the matches it's used in, but the hard part of storm isn't the early game, it's the mid/late game that can ruin your day. Taking your time against CB lists, as well as landstill lists (haven't had a chance to play against the newest builds enough to speak on it) can be brutal on the "lets combo ASAP" style of player. Ad Nauseam might be able to be replaced. Doomsday can be fast, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.

Has anyone ever looked into Praetor's Council? I know it costs 8 but it might be useful. Wish target...idk. It looks like a real expensive but possibly playable Yawgmoth's Will that is wish-able. BUrg lists could at least look at it. It takes minimum Rit, Rit, LED, 1(R), and resolve it. That's 2x rits and an LED back minimum. I really want it to be useable...It looks like funky trix.

Disclaimer: A lil' drunk, but I feel I've expressed my thoughts accurately, if not a bit naively.

--ABC

@Malakai: very interesting with burning but...how is finally the sb?
-1 Chain of Vapor
-1 Trickbind
+1 deathmark
+1 empty the warrens

My sideboard is:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Doomsday
1 Emrakul
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Deathmark
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
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There's something to be said for having Rebuild in there somewhere. I'm not sure how necessary the Tendriils in the board is. A second Ad Naseam is good when you expect to play against discard.

I didn't like having four Wishes. Infernal Tutor is better in multiples, as you can use it to up storm count for free or grab a second ritual/LED, whereas the Wish basically just grabs a Thoughtseize in those situations.

I'm thinking of dropping the DD package for my local meta, and possibly even all together. Sure it does better against countertop, but I dont feel its still very good. Especially now that they expect it. I think it's better in Ari's build, but with a Wish board I feel it takes up too many slots and hurts me more then helps me overall.

Dropping the dd package is valid, although it basically puts you in a position where you need to be able to Duress them before their second turn. I think if I were to do that I'd consider the Empty the Warrens plan to be plan A against them post-board. Consider testing a second one in the sideboard so that it can be brought into the maindeck in games 2 and 3.

I can see that being a plan, currently replaced the sideboard with a shitload of bounce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall

I gotta think about this one.

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Originally Posted by Neuad

I can see that being a plan, currently replaced the sideboard with a shitload of bounce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall

I gotta think about this one.

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just an observation, but you want at least one of the hurkyl's to be a rebuild. Chalice on 2 is a very real possibility early against some decks (dragon stompy / MUD)

There's no reason to have an Ill-Gotten Gains in your wishboard. Wish is removed from the game when it resolves, so you'd have to have an additional tutor/business spell in your hand/graveyard for it to do anything. I started out with one in mine, and in all my testing it came up exactly one time. The likelihood of that rare occurrence being at a time when it matters is very, very, very small.

I also had Eye of Nowhere. I think I might have been glad it was there one time. You'd much rather have a real sideboard card in that slot.

I don't like Shattering Spree. You're probably not going to have more than one red mana after you cast the Wish; two if you're lucky and they didn't jump at the chance of finally using their usually-dead Wasteland against you. Other options include Meltdown or Echoing Ruin, or (sigh) Eye of Nowhere. That said, I just don't think wishing for an answer to artifact hate is a realistic plan. You can still win through a Sphere or Chalice, and Deathmark already kills Ethersworn Canonist. Any slots you dedicate to it just seem better suited to being a Hurkyl's/Rebuild for games 2 and 3.

I've never liked Wipe Away. A smart Counterbalance player is going to float a 3drop on top, reducing your window to the end of your turn / beginning of theirs. Sure, you can still cast a spell, then once they top respond by bouncing it, but area you really going to have enough mana left over after spending two cards plus 1UU? What you actually want to do with the card is bounce the Counterbalance before they get a chance to find that 3drop, and that means finding your Wipe Away and three lands before it comes down. To me that means at least 3 of them, but then you start to get to the point where I have to ask if the Doomsday plan isn't just a better use of those slots.

And remember kids, don't be afraid to take a mulligan so that you can Duress them before they can play their hate. The same goes for spending a Lotus Petal on doing that.

Is the fear of Chalice on two the only justification for running Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall? I understand that Rebuild cycles, and in some situations when you're playing draw go, you can drop petals/LEDs and then end of their turn Rebuild so you don't have to discard excess artifact mana. However, the speed of being able to recall for only two mana does seem fairly good. I also don't see Chalice decks running around with a lot of frequency since Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy and MUD are not very popular so I'm wondering if that fear is justified.

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Originally Posted by Fossil4182

Is the fear of Chalice on two the only justification for running Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall? I understand that Rebuild cycles, and in some situations when you're playing draw go, you can drop petals/LEDs and then end of their turn Rebuild so you don't have to discard excess artifact mana. However, the speed of being able to recall for only two mana does seem fairly good. I also don't see Chalice decks running around with a lot of frequency since Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy and MUD are not very popular so I'm wondering if that fear is justified.

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what...if they put chalice at 2, they most likely don't have a chalice on 1.

If they have both, then I don't mind scooping to the stonecold nuts, even in ari's build you could play around it if you just tap5 lands (chrome mox/petals) for an ad nauseam and hope you drop them to their knees with a bunch of 0 mana crap and ill-gotten gains into tendrills.

The point is rebuild isn't there for chalice but for trinisphere, at that point everything costs 3, you might as well play the better one (just in case you have to cycle it).

Sad thing, I dislike it cuz it makes the ad nauseam more horrible again. chain of vapor is fine as it is, just sucks again chalice. but be honest...how often do you see chalice these days (in a non-goblin deck)

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Originally Posted by Malakai

I don't like Shattering Spree. You're probably not going to have more than one red mana after you cast the Wish; two if you're lucky and they didn't jump at the chance of finally using their usually-dead Wasteland against you. Other options include Meltdown or Echoing Ruin, or (sigh) Eye of Nowhere. That said, I just don't think wishing for an answer to artifact hate is a realistic plan. You can still win through a Sphere or Chalice, and Deathmark already kills Ethersworn Canonist. Any slots you dedicate to it just seem better suited to being a Hurkyl's/Rebuild for games 2 and 3.

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How about Pulverize? My main concern with it is it's not great against a single Trinisphere, and it forces you to run a slightly weaker manabase (I'm trying 2 Volcanics and a Badlands), but it has a powerful effect against artifact hate. Unlike a bounce spell, this is available Game 1 and is accessible exactly when you want it via Wish.

I havent seen it here but found it in the DDFT thread - great videos of this deck in action http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/34898875 I liked these a lot! If MatiasNL is here - thank you so much! Great commentary and you have got nice jokes there :) This is really helpful for all those starting playing storm. The only thing that I didnt like is that he is playing against some stupid players, the online meta seems to not have that much blue tempo as my meta, and that he has some amazing topdecks. But hey, thats life I guess. Congrats and keep em comming!

I' ve never been a huge fan of Grim Tutor for legacy (though I think Ari's list has some strong points), and since playing TES has gave good results when I played it regularly, I ' ve been testing this llist so far, for a very good win ratio. I' m posting it since now seems relevant for the discussion about Burning Wish.

Main 60

Lands 16

4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding tarn
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

Cantrips 12

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Acceleration 16

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Protection 7

4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize

Bussiness 9

3x Infernal Tutor
3x Burning Wish
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard 15

4x Doomsday
1x Emrakul
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Wipe Away (or the 2nd Ad Nauseam)

2x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x Thoughtseize

The point is that what I enjoyed the most of playing Wishes is that you don't necessarily auto lose to a andom main deck hate bear (such a GSZ --> Gaddock Teeg) and the flexibility it gives you, someitmes even with Doomsday Plan maindeck. I' ve tested Warrens but they are not needed, the deck is not as explosive as TES is and sometimes going for the goblins is simple a bad plan with all those Tempo decks(team america for instance) with EE main deck.

I' ve been considering chopping a cantirp in pro of another fetchland, but with this configuration seems that 16 lands are more than enough for our purpose.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Island
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Spells
4 [MPR] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [ARE] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
2 [GPX] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [ST] Grim Tutor
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [B] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [UL] Rebuild

I've been running this list lately, and am quite happy with it. I'm going to try Egosum's list (lost 2-1 to him on MWS, just now). Running BW though means I have to replace Xantid, which have been great (especially vs. Merfolk).

People, posts where you go "This is my list, and I'm happy with it" are useless. They are doubly useless when all you did over an earlier-mentioned list or an established one is go -1 Land +1 Thoughtseize.


Pulverize is out of the question. You aren't going to play two mountains.

If this is due my post with the, as you said, pretty standard list with the BW, I tried to give a brief explanation with the reasons why I think they are worth the slot in the build. But since I could have been a little short in my answer this is what I would 've post.

After giving Lax Storm a try, and starting with the point that the last Ritual Tendrils deck I' ve played in Legacy was TES (this is to mak you know that obviously is hard not to try to find a comparison), I felt that it has some black points that could be easily solved by splashing a little red for BW.

First of all I' d like to tell what I think are the strongest points of Lax Storm, these are the points I tried not to corrupt by splashing:

-Solid mana base, resilient to wasteland.
-Enough Threat Density.
-Non-dependace on Ad Nauseam (basing an strategy on Ad Nauseam, as primary engine is kind of suicidal in the times we are living. In fact it's always been, but Mystical Tutor was the paste that put the deck together).
-No card disadvantage (this is based on the cut of the Moxen).
-Big amount of high quality cantrips provide early and fast hand sculpting.

What I found that could be improved:

-Grim Tutor is O.K. but not a beast and has too many weaknesses (I have them, I tested them, I' m not talking for budget reasons nor for any kind of fooloish theory). First of All being costy, 3 CC makes that you cannot use it freely to find the pieces you need, if you are in a rush (under pressure if playing against aggro) you normally don't want to tap out in turn 3, lightning bolting you, and pass the turn in order to see what happens if you get your next Upkeep phase. The 3 lifes also make that after a resolved ADN it sucks, same for a Tutor Chain if you need to Chain with one or the 2 Tutors, maybe you can die to a single bolt (or maybe you cannot because you are low on lifes).
-Having access to a single Tendrils of Agony is not always enough, it can lead you to some crappy mulligans and, in occasions, you may be forced to find a Brainstorm so you can crack the LEDs freely (maybe because you are facing a FoW deck and you cannot pass through IGG loop, maybe because you already have the IGG in hand too), this can be told brainstorm dependence.
-The super tight main deck has a big problem dealing with random maindeck answers our opponent can play. With the, minor but still representative in some metas, success of Kuldotha red, and more specially with the growing of the popularity of Green Sun's Zenith in both Zoo and Bant (with most of them play a singleton Gaddock Teeg) makes the storm players to rethink about having some anti hate access in main deck. Obviously one could say that a single Chain of Vapor can seal the deal (can be fetched in an effective way with Grim Tutors, but remember always that effective is not the same as efficient), as I said tapping out turn 3 going for CoV to play it in the next Turn and bolting you, or even worse wasting a Ritual (Dark or Cabal) or a lotus petal to speed this up, therefore leading us to card disadvantage (something that we have to flee when playing this kind of deck)is truly a bad game plan.

So this is why I post the list, I think that a comment about a deck list is better if is coupled with it, I could have wrote something like the list X in the Post Y, but for every reader that do not follow this thread continuously it will be, for sure, more difficult to follow the explanation.

So with Burning Wish I tried to fill all those gaps by simply sacrificing a single basic land, that at least by this time hasn't hurt. Burning Wish also works great with a doomsday sideboard, so, as I said before, you can go for the DD plan in the first game (or in every game although you have not sided them in, this can give you some extra outs, for more information please check all the extensive documentation about making DD piles, read specially those piles that work with a cantrip, not with Sensei's divining top because after testing it it showed suboptimal for our game plan).

Hope this feels like more constructive, or at least less "useless".

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

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Originally Posted by egosum

If this is due my post with the, as you said, pretty standard list with the BW, I tried to give a brief explanation with the reasons why I think they are worth the slot in the build. But since I could have been a little short in my answer this is what I would 've post.

After giving Lax Storm a try, and starting with the point that the last Ritual Tendrils deck I' ve played in Legacy was TES (this is to mak you know that obviously is hard not to try to find a comparison), I felt that it has some black points that could be easily solved by splashing a little red for BW.

First of all I' d like to tell what I think are the strongest points of Lax Storm, these are the points I tried not to corrupt by splashing:

-Solid mana base, resilient to wasteland.
-Enough Threat Density.
-Non-dependace on Ad Nauseam (basing an strategy on Ad Nauseam, as primary engine is kind of suicidal in the times we are living. In fact it's always been, but Mystical Tutor was the paste that put the deck together).
-No card disadvantage (this is based on the cut of the Moxen).
-Big amount of high quality cantrips provide early and fast hand sculpting.

What I found that could be improved:

-Grim Tutor is O.K. but not a beast and has too many weaknesses (I have them, I tested them, I' m not talking for budget reasons nor for any kind of fooloish theory). First of All being costy, 3 CC makes that you cannot use it freely to find the pieces you need, if you are in a rush (under pressure if playing against aggro) you normally don't want to tap out in turn 3, lightning bolting you, and pass the turn in order to see what happens if you get your next Upkeep phase. The 3 lifes also make that after a resolved ADN it sucks, same for a Tutor Chain if you need to Chain with one or the 2 Tutors, maybe you can die to a single bolt (or maybe you cannot because you are low on lifes).
-Having access to a single Tendrils of Agony is not always enough, it can lead you to some crappy mulligans and, in occasions, you may be forced to find a Brainstorm so you can crack the LEDs freely (maybe because you are facing a FoW deck and you cannot pass through IGG loop, maybe because you already have the IGG in hand too), this can be told brainstorm dependence.
-The super tight main deck has a big problem dealing with random maindeck answers our opponent can play. With the, minor but still representative in some metas, success of Kuldotha red, and more specially with the growing of the popularity of Green Sun's Zenith in both Zoo and Bant (with most of them play a singleton Gaddock Teeg) makes the storm players to rethink about having some anti hate access in main deck. Obviously one could say that a single Chain of Vapor can seal the deal (can be fetched in an effective way with Grim Tutors, but remember always that effective is not the same as efficient), as I said tapping out turn 3 going for CoV to play it in the next Turn and bolting you, or even worse wasting a Ritual (Dark or Cabal) or a lotus petal to speed this up, therefore leading us to card disadvantage (something that we have to flee when playing this kind of deck)is truly a bad game plan.

So this is why I post the list, I think that a comment about a deck list is better if is coupled with it, I could have wrote something like the list X in the Post Y, but for every reader that do not follow this thread continuously it will be, for sure, more difficult to follow the explanation.

So with Burning Wish I tried to fill all those gaps by simply sacrificing a single basic land, that at least by this time hasn't hurt. Burning Wish also works great with a doomsday sideboard, so, as I said before, you can go for the DD plan in the first game (or in every game although you have not sided them in, this can give you some extra outs, for more information please check all the extensive documentation about making DD piles, read specially those piles that work with a cantrip, not with Sensei's divining top because after testing it it showed suboptimal for our game plan).

Hope this feels like more constructive, or at least less "useless".

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

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Actually the list looks a lot like the 3C TES created by emidln only with more black rituals and less tutors and red sources.
Do you feel this list is better (suited for the current meta) than the "standard" 3C TES lists?

I think it is. By sacrificing the explosiveness of TES (this is red rituals and EtW, and Moxen, basicaly) you gain a lot of consitancy, Cabal Ritual is a very good card if played with many fetchlands and cantrips, which is the case, I' ve found lately tht the Warrens plan was only super good against merfolk, and they seem like in low profile (this is as I said some posts above due to the large number of EE being played and also because the cantrip lists is not as fast as TES). TES suffered from being color controlled in some occasions (though not too often), while this deck doesn't. Also with tempo growing, the card disadvantage the Moxen brought hurt us badly (card disadvantage is a bad ally in an attrition war). Plus TES doens't have room for the DD plan in the board which I see pretty efficient against CB - Top (and once again the option of DD Storm if needed, I'll post some useful piles specific for this list as soon as I have the time).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Wow many thakns from spain iñaki ;)

I´ll waiting for that piles

Well this are the more relevant piles you can do, if needed, with my list (the information is taken from a complete spreadsheet of 357 DD piles made by a user from the Stormboards. I' ve filtered them by cutting the ones that use cards not in my miandeck, note: see that no pile needs any specific card in play, or that require a "Wish-Target" not currently in my sideboard. I also omitted the piles that need a BW in hand since I'm making the assumption that if we had a BW in hand we have used it to fetch for DD.

Non Pass the Turn Piles:

Hand Requirements: BS +2
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 7
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + BS +ToA

Note 1: if the last BS in the pile (i.e. the fourth card) is replaced with IGG, you have the same requirements for 10 Storm Count.
Note 2: if in addition to the IGG change, you change the ToA for a Burning Wish (--> ToA) you have the same requirements for 11 Storm Count.

Hand Requirements: 2xBS + 2
Mana required: U
Storm Count: 8
DD Pile: LP + BS + 2x LED + ToA

Note 1: if the BS in the pile (i.e. the fourth card) is replaced with IGG, you have the same requirements for 11 Storm Count.
Note 2: if in addition to the IGG change, you change the ToA for a Burning Wish (--> ToA) you have the same requirements for 12 Storm Count.
Note 3: all this piles work exactly the same way if your hand is PN + BS +2.

Pass the Turn Piles:


Hand Requirements: IT + 1
Mana required: 1UB
Storm Count: 10
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG +ToA

Note: if the extra card in your hand is PN (i.e. IT + PN) you have the same pile for Storm Count 10 but for only UU as mana requirement.

Hand Requirements: PN + 1
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 9
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG +ToA

Note 1: if the extra card you have in hand is PN (i.e. PN + PN) you have exactly the same pile but for Storm Count of 10.
Note 2: if you replace the ToA for a BW (--> ToA). You have the same pile but for Storm Count of 10. Note that with a hand requirement of PN + PN in this case you'll have a Storm Count of 12.

This is an example of how you can make some modifications in the piles by exchangeing the order of some cards.

Modification of the PN + PN pile (interesting to keep in mind):

Hand Requirements: PN + ToA
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 10
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG + PN

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. maybe it's not needed, but here is a Legend:

BS = Brainstorm
PN = Ponder (wherever it says Ponder it can be replaced by Preordain)
BW = Burning Wish
IT = Infernal Tutor
LED = Lion's Eye Diamond
LP = Lotus Petal
IGG = Ill-Gotten Gains
ToA = Tendrils of Agony

Egosum:

The point about MD hate becoming more prevalent is a real one. The Grim Tutor build really doesn't have a realistic way to change to beat MD hate without sacrificing a significant amount of consistency when you don't want Chain of Vapors. One isn't going to cut it. The deck was designed a for a format where MD hate was completely absent and your goal was to be as consistent against the generic cards (Duress, Force, Daze, Wasteland) as possible. GSZ and the resurgence of Stifle have changed things to the point I'm considering Burning Wish as well.

I haven't had real issues with the single Tendrils yet, it comes up rarely as even against Blue decks if it is in hand you can IGG it back and just play it through a Force or two. Drawing IGG and the Tendrils is an issue, but once I started actually shuffling well after Brainstorms it went away and it mostly a product of laziness and trying to turbo through a game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by egosum

I think it is. By sacrificing the explosiveness of TES (this is red rituals and EtW, and Moxen, basicaly) you gain a lot of consitancy, Cabal Ritual is a very good card if played with many fetchlands and cantrips, which is the case, I' ve found lately tht the Warrens plan was only super good against merfolk, and they seem like in low profile (this is as I said some posts above due to the large number of EE being played and also because the cantrip lists is not as fast as TES). TES suffered from being color controlled in some occasions (though not too often), while this deck doesn't. Also with tempo growing, the card disadvantage the Moxen brought hurt us badly (card disadvantage is a bad ally in an attrition war). Plus TES doens't have room for the DD plan in the board which I see pretty efficient against CB - Top (and once again the option of DD Storm if needed, I'll post some useful piles specific for this list as soon as I have the time).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

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Thank you for the answer.
One small change I would probably make to the list is the addition of 1 badlands in favor of a swamp.
I've always felt like 3 basic land is enough and I feel more comfortable with 2 (land) red sources.
This is in case one gets destroyed or you want to BW>IT with 1 island 1 other land.

How do you play against TES?

Chant with W open means you can't go off, and even if you force them to discard their Chants, you still have no way of going IGG on them. Setting up a tutor chain for 8-9 storm is unlikely given all the discard involved in the mirror match, so it seems like it comes down to ripping Ad Nauseam (or Dark Confidant, if you run that in the board).

@Arilax: do try it, is working wonders for me, although Spell Snare may hurt the deck, this is why I decided to add the 7th "duress", the 8th is well placed in the board as a wish target (coming to the maindeck in some given matches).

@Dia_Bot: I would only spoil the mana base with another dual if the deck wanted to give extra support to the red splash, i.e. playing pyroclasm instead of Deathmark in the board, for instance. Despite the fact that 3 Basic lands (2x U + 1x B) are enough, by playing extra basic lands (beyond that) makes you more confortable when paired against tempo decks, and since it seems not necessary to add the 2nd red source I'll keep it like this. (9 fetch + volcanic + Petal, and in some situations LED played off cantrip is enough for that small splash). Choosing between Volcanic of Badlands is, I think, a personal choice, I' m not really sure which is correct but since 2 islands are enough for cantripping the first turns playing 2 Swamps seems strong, just in case one get sinkholed or Hym to Tourached away from yourhand, I know these are corner case, but the point is taht 3 Islands are not really needed.

@lordofthepit: pairing against TES is, as most mirror like matches, an attrition game. So disruption is the most relevant part of your deck, just cantrip into it and rip their hand. Also having a second Nauseam in the board increases the winning ratio in this match up (one of the strongest plays you can do in "mirror" is ADN at the end of you ropponent's Turn, once your disruption has made a little job).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

How do you guys stop a Top floating a Force of Will. Sometimes stripping their hand of all blue spells is just not actually realistic. But this deck can almost never beat that, and I can't imagine how bad it is when there is two Tops and Force+blue card floating. I guess I will accept that and move on.

That being said, I definitely think that Burning Wish is a million times better than Grim Tutor. Although part of me wants to drop a Swamp and an Island for a Volcanic and a Badlands to support Pulverize (which is such an amazing card), but that might make the TA, Merfolk, etc. very, very hard.

If this is the situation, that means taht you are facing an slow pace deck, so just try to rip the hand as much as you can and double bomb them to death. I know it is hard, but beyond this there is no real chance to win a FoW concealed unde a Top.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.D. I' m afrain Pulverize is not needed, and even with 2 red lands it is not that great, sinc eyou 'll need the Pulerize to combat decks taht also pack land disruption (for instance, Kuldotha red, Aggro Loam playing chalice, ...). I'm afraid this deck players won't respect your lands until you can get the 2 mountains together, plus is unreal that you won't show a mountain before having the pulverize in hand, simply because you need burningh wish to find it (obviously you can play BW out of Lotus Petal, but then you may need LP + BW + 2 Fetch uncracked in play, not easy to assemble).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

How do you guys stop a Top floating a Force of Will. Sometimes stripping their hand of all blue spells is just not actually realistic. But this deck can almost never beat that, and I can't imagine how bad it is when there is two Tops and Force+blue card floating. I guess I will accept that and move on.

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If we are talking game 1, It requires either stripping their other blue cards (as you said difficult) or putting them in a position where one FoW won't be enough. The *easiest* (not saying it's easy) is to have an IGG AND an Ad Nauseam in hand. You AdN during their turn and put them in a position of either countering it, or letting you draw a bunch (of discard hopefully) OR burning it on the Ad and letting you have IGG.

Of course in that scenario there aren't a ton of outs (in the grim build) but you play what you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

How do you guys stop a Top floating a Force of Will. Sometimes stripping their hand of all blue spells is just not actually realistic. But this deck can almost never beat that, and I can't imagine how bad it is when there is two Tops and Force+blue card floating. I guess I will accept that and move on.

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Usually I kill them before they set it up, Duress their top, or they go for it after a shuffle and play the odds.

This NPH card was spoiled this morning on MTGS (yeah, I know). It was in Japanese, so the translation is a little rough, but you get the idea:

"Phyrexian Unlife"
Rare
2W
Enchantment
You do not lose the game for having 0 or less life.
While you are at 0 or less life, all sources deal damage to you as if they had Infect.

Might we see this in a UBw "draw your deck" Storm variant with multiple Ad Nauseam (3 life? Who cares! Keep flipping!)?