Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Is there a way to merge Stoneforge with CounterTop and Miracles? It seems like it would mix in just well with the CB curve (lacks heavily in 2s), Clique, and help with troublesome matchups.

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This has been tried with varying degrees of success. See older SCG lists, and further back in the thread.

I had two main problems with Stoneforge.

First, Batterskull is a five turn clock, possibly more if you've used a lot of StPs. This leaves a lot of time for them to deal with it.

Second, I found that a lot of the times, I didn't want to cast my Stoneforge for fear of shuffling away the top of my deck, which had been stacked just perfectly to counter just about everything. This may just be my personal fear of abandoning / weakening my control on the game in favor of going for the throat.

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Originally Posted by ThoSha

Hi guys!

Been tinkering with UW Miracles for a while now, testing with Joe's list, Alex' list and R. Levy's.
My decision went to Levy's UW Ponderlist in the end, because it feels really consistent even without having a Top out and saving the Brainstorms for better value than searching lands.
I made a few tweaks on his list, going +1 CB +3 Geist of Saint Traft, -3 Snapcaster Mage -1 Elspeth for better results.
At first it felt strange to add "Aggro" Geist in this deck with watching out not to terminate him too, but if you get better with the list it doesn't really matter. He is a bomb with Jace and/or Elspeth, or a few Stp, not to mention on an empty board after you Terminus'd in their turn. You can also bounce him with Karakas, then Terminus, then play him again in your turn. Pretty nice in testing.

The funny thing I figured out is not that we need to add another "I WIN" button with Geist, but rather turning the game around at some point WAAAY earlier. Not being the punching ball like usual miracles.
Being the beatdown puts your opponent in a defensive position because of his annoying hexproof ability. If you opt to play him on turn 3, he will at least be a Psionic Blast that puts your opponent on defense for at least 1 turn, gaining you time you need to build up for finishing with better bombs. With him being on the attack at least once, you need to make 1 Angel token less in the late game to win, which turned out to be relevant. For all of you complaining about the Goblin Matchup, it gets better with Geist. At least 50/50. Tested a lot against it without having Humily or Moat in my board and feel good about it.

I didn't go trough the whole thread, sorry for that, but did anyone test him already in UW Miracles and dismissed him?

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So you want to tap out in a control deck to play a 2/2 that is probably not going to hold the board at all and it's also shitty against combo decks in a Miracle configuration that's already shitty against combo because of the lack of Counterbalance.
The only times when you will manage to ride a Geist to victory it will be because of a pre-emtpive Terminus. If you believe that Geist puts a clock on his own in Miracle, it will take whichever 2 dorks for Jund/BUG/Threshold/Goblin to force you to blow your own Geist with a mass sweeper because otherwise you would lose to an unfavorable board.

Snapcaster is an equivalent of p/t, with the little difference that it has flash, recycles Brainstorm (y'know, that white clunk that stinks in your hand since t1 called Miracle spells..), allows you to stay open to Top. This deck needs to control the board and gain incremental advantage over resources, not to ride a pseudo-aggro creature to victory with any structure whatsoever (no burn spells, no mana denial, no Sword of X and Y) to support it.

Sigh, this topic is hopeless.

I already moved away from the idea. Seemed cute, but really got me nowhere today in my local.
Moving away from Levy's list, the manabase was frightening. I was building the deck to have a fair shot at RUG, and not get stifled out of the game(on turn 4, by simply not having Spell Pierce in the 75).
And like you mentioned, the combo matchup is horrible. Snapcaster wouldn't be enough here either, as he can never make up for MD Counterbalance. Got crushed by ANT twice.
I would have loved to simply play 3 Snapcasters, but the non-bo with RIP is horrific in my eyes. There are so many decks right now where you simply want to RIP their faces postboard.

The list just makes no sense in reality. No control and no real beatdown. Just sweepers. Resolving Entreat 1> is unlikely against anything packing cheap counters. Screw this.

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Originally Posted by ThoSha

I already moved away from the idea. Seemed cute, but really got me nowhere today in my local.
Moving away from Levy's list, the manabase was frightening. I was building the deck to have a fair shot at RUG, and not get stifled out of the game(on turn 4, by simply not having Spell Pierce in the 75).
And like you mentioned, the combo matchup is horrible. Snapcaster wouldn't be enough here either, as he can never make up for MD Counterbalance. Got crushed by ANT twice.
I would have loved to simply play 3 Snapcasters, but the non-bo with RIP is horrific in my eyes. There are so many decks right now where you simply want to RIP their faces postboard.

The list just makes no sense in reality. No control and no real beatdown. Just sweepers. Resolving Entreat 1> is unlikely against anything packing cheap counters. Screw this.

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My list has been very good against RUG and ANT. Give it a try if you're interested.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

My list has been very good against RUG and ANT. Give it a try if you're interested.

-Matt

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Your list is the one without Jace, TMS, correct? I can totally see why you would choose not to run them in those Match Ups, but not even in the SB?

Thanks matt, i'll give it a go.
Jace+Elspeth felt clunky in my meta anyway.

Edit: Nvm, your list contains 57 cards, so the missing 3 are Jace obviously.

What do you guys think about Preordain over Ponder as the replacement for land #23?


//Lands
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Tundra
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas

//Creatures/Planeswalkers
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

//Spells
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Sensei's Divining Top

//Sideboard
1 Batterskull
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flusterstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Misdirection
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor


I started out with a Enlightened Tutor maindeck over the fourth Counterbalance. Then, I decided after testing that the biggest problem with this deck is being grinded out by these tempo decks and going into top-deck mode. I play Control in every other format, and this is the only Control deck where you use strictly card filtering over card drawing. That leads to these awkward midgames where you inevitably get Brainstorm/Top locked with no more Fetchlands to shuffle with. At that point it seems like the majority of draws are just plain bad. Brainstorm is bad. Top is bad. Spell Pierce is dead. Force of Will may or may not be hard-castable, etc. I tried to solve this at first with Standstill as a 1-of to drop early and force Tempo decks to either let the game drag further, which favors you with your Tops and fetchlands, or crack the Standstill and give you three cards. This worked in several games, but seemed too high-variance. Now, I'm thinking that Ponder or Preordain will help with that, and the Tutor is in the sideboard. As I figure it, Preordain is going to be better than Ponder, since in most scenarios you have 1 card that you do want, and 2 useless ones that need to be sent to the bottom. With Ponder, you dig a card deeper, but for the most part this filler is there to help out when you already see 3 cards deep. In that scenario, Ponder seems a worse Preordain, unless you don't want any of the three cards on top. I also like being able to draw and eventually brainstorm back the proper CMC card for Counterbalance, or the miracle that you've been floating on top of your deck, while getting rid of 2 dead draws that you place above it with Top. Maybe this is going about it the wrong way, though.

With the Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard, perhaps the Snapcaster should be a fourth Counterbalance? That just seems like an awful card to have 4-of, since it's a pretty poor card unless you have top in play, and the multiples are particularly terrible when you don't. The Snapcaster came in when I was looking for another 2 CMC card, and with the addition of Preordain, I actually have 14 solid targets. It should also be relevant against these tempo decks, the same way I've seen Venser doing work for Joe in his videos. I don't think I can bring myself to run Venser maindeck, but we'll see after I get some games in with him.

With 10 fetchlands and some number of Enlightened Tutors, you shouldn't be that desperate for shuffles. Ponder is alright, but it is much better than Preordain.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

That just seems like an awful card to have 4-of, since it's a pretty poor card unless you have top in play, and the multiples are particularly terrible when you don't.

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Besides the obvious of multiple Counterbalance giving redundancy against Abrupt Decay, you can also use double Counterbalance with a shuffle effect to get multiple blind flips. Also, even with only one Counterbalance + a shuffle, you can peek at the top of your deck every time they cast a spell (even uncounterable ones like Abrupt Decay) and decide if you want to draw that card or shuffle.

I'm not sure how I feel about using Enlightened Tutor in this deck. On one hand, I like being able to fetch pieces of RiP + Field/Helm more easily and using it for other techy stuff (like putting a artifact/enchantment on top to counter a spell with Counterbalance). On the other hand, I don't like the card disadvantage and the fact that sometimes the shuffle might not play nice with keeping a Miracle in the top three cards. What are your thoughts on E. Tutor? Personal preference, core card?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I'm not sure how I feel about using Enlightened Tutor in this deck. On one hand, I like being able to fetch pieces of RiP + Field/Helm more easily and using it for other techy stuff (like putting a artifact/enchantment on top to counter a spell with Counterbalance). On the other hand, I don't like the card disadvantage and the fact that sometimes the shuffle might not play nice with keeping a Miracle in the top three cards. What are your thoughts on E. Tutor? Personal preference, core card?

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I personally love playing with Enlightened Tutor since it helps me keep more hands and offers redundancy. I've done lots of Counterbalance flips with ET. At the same time, I've also had the problem with shuffling away cards I need for another artifact/enchantment that I need. I think while Enlightened Tutor is nice (especially for sideboards with a healthy array of enchantment and artifact based hate), it's not necessary and it's up to the individual player. For the record, I play RiP/Helm.

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Originally Posted by ThoSha

Thanks matt, i'll give it a go.
Jace+Elspeth felt clunky in my meta anyway.

Edit: Nvm, your list contains 57 cards, so the missing 3 are Jace obviously.

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Yeah, I was just super sleepy writing that list. Full one is:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Karakas
5 Island
2 Plains

3 Counterbalance
4 Top
1 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring

3 Jace
1 Elspeth

3 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
1 counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels

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3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pyroclasm
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

The Jaces and such can be clunky, it just depends on the matchup. I do end up pitching Jaces to Forces quite often in certain matchups were there were worse cards t board out and Jace stayed in BECAUSE it pitched to FoW.

Against ANT, I'm on the:

+3 REB, +2 Cannonist, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Rest in Peace
-3 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 STP, -1 Oblivion Ring, -1 Jace TMS

REB helps hit either Cantrips or Chain of Vapour for your lockpieces. Cannonist and Leyline are obvious. Rest in Peace stops the Past in Flames kill/tunes down Cabal Ritual. All the creature removal is atrocious, and Jace is slow. I'd want to keep mana up all the time at turns 4-6 once there's been an initial disruption, not tap out and play Jace.

Against Omni:

+3 REB, +2 Cannonist, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Venser
-3 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 STP, -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Rest in Peace

REB counters Omni/all their spells. Cannonist is cool beans for the Show and Tell, as are Leyline and Venser, or even before it all lands on the table. Removal is atrocious once again, and the Rest in Peace/EE don't matter here.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Yeah, I was just super sleepy writing that list. Full one is:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Karakas
5 Island
2 Plains

3 Counterbalance
4 Top
1 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring

3 Jace
1 Elspeth

3 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
1 counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels

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3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pyroclasm
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

The Jaces and such can be clunky, it just depends on the matchup. I do end up pitching Jaces to Forces quite often in certain matchups were there were worse cards t board out and Jace stayed in BECAUSE it pitched to FoW.

Against ANT, I'm on the:

+3 REB, +2 Cannonist, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Rest in Peace
-3 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 STP, -1 Oblivion Ring, -1 Jace TMS

REB helps hit either Cantrips or Chain of Vapour for your lockpieces. Cannonist and Leyline are obvious. Rest in Peace stops the Past in Flames kill/tunes down Cabal Ritual. All the creature removal is atrocious, and Jace is slow. I'd want to keep mana up all the time at turns 4-6 once there's been an initial disruption, not tap out and play Jace.

Against Omni:

+3 REB, +2 Cannonist, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Venser
-3 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 STP, -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Rest in Peace

REB counters Omni/all their spells. Cannonist is cool beans for the Show and Tell, as are Leyline and Venser, or even before it all lands on the table. Removal is atrocious once again, and the Rest in Peace/EE don't matter here.

-Matt

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A few questions for you:

What's the reasoning behind the low number of counterspells? I get that Counterspells aren't as useful as they were, but I've been happy since forever with 2 Spell Pierce 2 Counterspell// 3 Spell Pierce 2 Counterspell, in addition to Force.

I notice that you're on the low side of blue cards. I'm counting 19 MD, do you ever find yourself with no pitch fodder for Force of Will? I was going to suggest Moat in favor of Supreme Verdict, but I'm not sure you can afford going down to 18 blue cards.

Are the 2 E. Tutor really worth it? You do not have so many targets as, say, RIP Miracles, so maybe you could go -1 tutor +1 blue card?

How's Leyline in the side? I'm not a fan of high variance cards, but could see myself including it.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I'm not sure how I feel about using Enlightened Tutor in this deck. On one hand, I like being able to fetch pieces of RiP + Field/Helm more easily and using it for other techy stuff (like putting a artifact/enchantment on top to counter a spell with Counterbalance). On the other hand, I don't like the card disadvantage and the fact that sometimes the shuffle might not play nice with keeping a Miracle in the top three cards. What are your thoughts on E. Tutor? Personal preference, core card?

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Tutor in the main is pretty much an auto-include if you're running the RIP-Helm version of miracles. If you're not, then I think it is a really strong sideboard card, but would not play it in the main. While it has its uses, I don't think that there are powerful enough enchantments or artifacts in the main deck to warrant the card disadvantage. However, in the sideboard you can use it to amplify your hate cards for particular matchups. For a simple example, if you had a setup of 2 Enlightened Tutor, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Rest in Peace you'd effectively be playing 4 really powerful hate cards against Storm and graveyard strategies for only 6 sideboard spaces. There is obviously a lot more you can do, but I've always found tutor to artificially expand the size of my sideboard and for this I really think it is worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Tutor in the main is pretty much an auto-include if you're running the RIP-Helm version of miracles.

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I guess my next question is: why wouldn't you play Rip/Helm?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I guess my next question is: why wouldn't you play Rip/Helm?

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Joe/oarsman promoted his legend-angel version a lot, and he has explained why legend-angel version is better than rip-helm on his stream, post M14 rule change.

In a combo-infested meta, RiP has very little interaction with Show and Tell variants, maybe minimal interaction with High Tide. However, MD RiP poses even more threats for RUG Delver. You can throw all 3 CB and 3 RiP at Delvers, Delver players can't counter all of them.

sdematt's version is pretty much Joe/oarsman's legend-angel version, but -3 spell pierce -1 misdirection +2 E.T. +1 Elspeth +1 EE.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Joe/oarsman promoted his legend-angel version a lot, and he has explained why legend-angel version is better than rip-helm on his stream, post M14 rule change.

In a combo-infested meta, RiP has very little interaction with Show and Tell variants, maybe minimal interaction with High Tide. However, MD RiP poses even more threats for RUG Delver. You can throw all 3 CB and 3 RiP at Delvers, Delver players can't counter all of them.

sdematt's version is pretty much Joe/oarsman's legend-angel version, but -3 spell pierce -1 misdirection +2 E.T. +1 Elspeth +1 EE.

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The Legends version is probably a lot better suited for the mirror than the RiP-Helm version, but the RiP-Helm version has more game against RUG/Reanimator/Dredge while RiP helps against Deathrite Shaman/Snapcaster Mage decks (though I don't know if it makes it better than legends...). It also has the win condition in Helm that wins games out of nowhere.

I think Leyline is a nice consideration against ANT/Shardless BUG/Jund, but I dont see any relevant reason why you should board it against Omnitell.
Isn't Gitaxian Probe the only target it prevents? Maybe I've overlooked something, but its a monoblue deck in my meta at least.

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I think Leyline is a nice consideration against ANT/Shardless BUG/Jund, but I dont see any relevant reason why you should board it against Omnitell.
Isn't Gitaxian Probe the only target it prevents? Maybe I've overlooked something, but its a monoblue deck in my meta at least.

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Intuition requires them to chose an opponent to separate the cards. Since you cannot be a target, Intuition is shut down, so their tutoring power goes down.

It also stops Release the Ants, but at that point they will probably be able to just Wish for Wipe Away or something.

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

How's Leyline in the side? I'm not a fan of high variance cards, but could see myself including it.

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It's not as high variance as it seems since we are able to cast it so easily. I won a game (and match) last Saturday because I was able to Brainstorm into a Leyline the turn before my opponent's Liliana could ultimate.

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Originally Posted by SageShadows

The Legends version is probably a lot better suited for the mirror than the RiP-Helm version, but the RiP-Helm version has more game against RUG/Reanimator/Dredge while RiP helps against Deathrite Shaman/Snapcaster Mage decks (though I don't know if it makes it better than legends...). It also has the win condition in Helm that wins games out of nowhere.

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Sure RIP is a bit more clunky against the mirror main deck, but post boarding both decks will probably be within 2-3 cards of each other.

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Originally Posted by ThoSha

I think Leyline is a nice consideration against ANT/Shardless BUG/Jund, but I dont see any relevant reason why you should board it against Omnitell.
Isn't Gitaxian Probe the only target it prevents? Maybe I've overlooked something, but its a monoblue deck in my meta at least.

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The Omniscience lists are sort of split into two camps at the moment... mono-Blue with Leylines and Defense Grids in the SB and splash-Black (cutting some Leylines or Grids) for Thoughtseize. I'm not sure I'd board in Leylines against mono-Blue Omniscience, but it's so borderline that it becomes a shoe-in against the Black splash.

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

Intuition requires them to chose an opponent to separate the cards. Since you cannot be a target, Intuition is shut down, so their tutoring power goes down.

It also stops Release the Ants, but at that point they will probably be able to just Wish for Wipe Away or something.

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I actually never thought about it hitting Intuition, that's really cool. Like you said, if they combo off, then most likely they will be able to bounce your Leyline, but hitting Intuition makes it even stronger than I thought. There's also always the possibility that you have multiple Leylines or a Counterbalance on 3, which greatly complicates them being able to bounce and win.

The Leylines are there to make it harder for them, that's all. It's BETTER against Jund (which was giving me fits before), traditional ANT, and Painter (which is in my meta now that Recruiter is no longer $300...).

I've liked the E. Tutors quite a bit. Even though it doesn't seem like it does a lot, and since it does lower my counterspell count, you would think it's quite atrocious. However, in the matchups where it matters, being able to fetch Top or Counterbalance, EE, Rest in Peace, or Oblivion Ring can be a big deal.

I'm not saying I don't miss the counterspells, because I do, but it lets you have a bit more variability in your answers maindeck, as opposed to having them ALL in the sideboard.

-Matt

I don't mind the missed counterspells much. If you've got counterbalance active, E Tutor can put a 1, 2, 3, or 4 casting cost spell on top of your library; which can be quite useful in the case of cards that say "counter this or die"

Has anyone considered Vedalken Shackles instead of Supreme Verdict? It costs 3 colorless mana, punches through Mother + Teeg, and stalls the red zone until your opponent manages to find and resolve proper removal.

Isn't Oblivion Ring strictly superior to Detention Sphere in lists with 20+ blue spells?

What is the reasoning behind playing any less than 4 Counterbalance in the main?

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Has anyone considered Vedalken Shackles instead of Supreme Verdict? It costs 3 colorless mana, punches through Mother + Teeg, and stalls the red zone until your opponent manages to find and resolve proper removal.

Isn't Oblivion Ring strictly superior to Detention Sphere in lists with 20+ blue spells?

What is the reasoning behind playing any less than 4 Counterbalance in the main?

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Shackles is a bit slow (5 mana to play), depends on islands which you might or might not have tons of, and eats removal like Abrupt Decay, whereas Supreme Verdict/Terminus just takes care of your problems.

Oblivion Ring is generally better, but I wouldn't say strictly better. You might be able to hit multiples of things, like Lingering Soul tokens in a pinch.

I play 3 Counterbalance MD, 0/1 SB but I'd be interested to hear what people think about this last question.

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Has anyone considered Vedalken Shackles instead of Supreme Verdict? It costs 3 colorless mana, punches through Mother + Teeg, and stalls the red zone until your opponent manages to find and resolve proper removal.

Isn't Oblivion Ring strictly superior to Detention Sphere in lists with 20+ blue spells?

What is the reasoning behind playing any less than 4 Counterbalance in the main?

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You will not find anyone on The Source which loves Vedalken Shackles any more than I do. Abrupt Decay is the main reason I'm not running it. I would still consider it a a 1-off MD/SB if your metagame demands it/you have available space/you're like me and you shove the card into every possible deck at the slightest chance.

You sometimes get a 2x1 out of Detention Sphere, so I would not call it strictly better.

Not sure on the last one, the average number is 3/4, with a larger tendency to 3.

I used to run 4 FoW and 3 Counterbalance MD, with 1 in the SB. This sort of seems backward to me since Counterbalance is better against fair decks and unfair decks, so I just switched it to 4 CB and 3 FoW MD with a FoW in the SB.

I think Detention Sphere being pitchable to FoW is something to consider, in addition to hitting multiple permanents (which can be relevant more often than you'd think). Though, with the new m14 rules, it could be awkward if you both have Jaces out.

Shackles unfortunately just doesn't cut it with all the Abrupt Decays out there. I'd rather run Path to Exile or more sweepers.

Whoa, didn't even think about my Jace and their Jace with D. Sphere...Sucky. Good thing I don't see other Jace lists...Meh. I've been playing 4/3 CB/FoW as well. It's been doing good against all the fair builds I face as well as allows me to pitch CB to Force without cringing.

-ABC

Does anyone foresee this deck getting worse in the upcoming months now that the new legend and planeswalker rules are in? One of my fellow Legacy junkies who plays Esper Stoneblade thinks that Jace + Critters (e.g. Stoneblade or BUG) are better Jace decks since they are more proactive and actually present a good clock versus somewhat durdly, control-heavy Jace decks (i.e. Miracles), which will become strictly worse. I also feel I'm relearning how to play Jace now that two 'em can have a staring contest.

I recently went 0-3 playing a UW build (similar to Levy's list) and got decimated by Esper Stoneblade, Jund, and 12-Post. I drew very badly in the Stoneblade match and not to mention the pilot is a better player than me, the Jund player drew extremely well (found a Liliana like every goddamn time to which I had no answers), and durdled against 12-Post since I have no clock nor Wastelands. True, I'm just down on the build and probably need to switch to UWr for a bit, which I think will help to make it more proactive. I think I just answered my own question on how to strengthen the deck now that we're faced with new rules changes. Thanks The Source! :cool:

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Originally Posted by Kyle

Does anyone foresee this deck getting worse in the upcoming months now that the new legend and planeswalker rules are in? One of my fellow Legacy junkies who plays Esper Stoneblade thinks that Jace + Critters (e.g. Stoneblade or BUG) are better Jace decks since they are more proactive and actually present a good clock versus somewhat durdly, control-heavy Jace decks (i.e. Miracles), which will become strictly worse. I also feel I'm relearning how to play Jace now that two 'em can have a staring contest.

I recently went 0-3 playing a UW build (similar to Levy's list) and got decimated by Esper Stoneblade, Jund, and 12-Post. I drew very badly in the Stoneblade match and not to mention the pilot is a better player than me, the Jund player drew extremely well (found a Liliana like every goddamn time to which I had no answers), and durdled against 12-Post since I have no clock nor Wastelands. True, I'm just down on the build and probably need to switch to UWr for a bit, which I think will help to make it more proactive. I think I just answered my own question on how to strengthen the deck now that we're faced with new rules changes. Thanks The Source! :cool:

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That and Jund/12-Post are bad/atrocious match-ups. I think the most of the meta isn't as bad for Miracles.

I brought Eli Kassis's build to my local weekly wednesday's tourny and it worked pretty well.

List for reference:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...2&iddeck=77811

I added Clique for the Electrolyze and changed sideboard a bit to fit my meta.

I dodged Show and Tell and Goblins which battled in the finals. I went 3-1 losing first round to U/B Tezzeret, I had an out to topdeck Terminus or Helm but I drew Jace which wasnt enough against 2x 5/5 artifacts with me only having 6 lands. Beat MUD, Burn and RUG 2-0 each.

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Originally Posted by SageShadows

That and Jund/12-Post are bad/atrocious match-ups. I think the most of the meta isn't as bad for Miracles.

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Jund is highly winnable and possibly close to favorable post-board with access to 3 Leylines, a 3rd Entreat, and Elspeth. 12-Post is pretty awful unless you have Blood Moon basically, although early Counter-Top can slow them down quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Jund is highly winnable and possibly close to favorable post-board with access to 3 Leylines, a 3rd Entreat, and Elspeth. 12-Post is pretty awful unless you have Blood Moon basically, although early Counter-Top can slow them down quite a bit.

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I don't have the room to fit the 3 Leylines and I actually ended up cutting Elspeth in favor of different cards, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on my decklist against Jund:

Lands
1 Mystic Gate
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
3 Rest in Peace
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

Instants and Sorceries
3 Force of Will
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Wear // Tear

I don't see much that I can cut. Against Jund, I'd probably bring in Misdirection, EtA, and Terminus while cutting Forces and maybe 1 Jace. Also, maybe Blood Moon for Oblivion Ring? I'm not quite sure where I could run 3 Leylines...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Has anyone considered Vedalken Shackles instead of Supreme Verdict?

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Shackles was awesome until Abrupt Decay was made. Now it's questionable.

Supreme Verdict is better anyways: mass removal, can't be countered, pitches to FoW. Perfect for a control deck that wants to supplement their Terminus/StP package.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsck

I brought Eli Kassis's build to my local weekly wednesday's tourny and it worked pretty well.

List for reference:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...2&iddeck=77811

I added Clique for the Electrolyze and changed sideboard a bit to fit my meta.

I dodged Show and Tell and Goblins which battled in the finals. I went 3-1 losing first round to U/B Tezzeret, I had an out to topdeck Terminus or Helm but I drew Jace which wasnt enough against 2x 5/5 artifacts with me only having 6 lands. Beat MUD, Burn and RUG 2-0 each.

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The list you mentioned is atrocious. Double helm and Lightning bolt? You gotta be kidding me.

Everything in this deck dies to decay, it doesn't make it bad. When you face a deck using Abrupt Decay, do you side out all of your Rest in Peace, Counterbalance and Cliques? Personally, I'd rather power through by overwhelming my opponent with too many quality "must-answer" cards that only Decay can take care of. Counterbalance/Rest in Peace are great cards against Jund, Junk, and Shardless BUG, and so is Shackles. If they used their Decays to get rid of my RiP and/or CB, then they can't deal with Shackle, and that means a lot of trouble for them. I Don't like Verdict because, unlike Terminus, I usually have to tap out for it and I usually don't have 2 white sources as a part of my first 4 lands. Matchups where Verdict is your lifeline usually don't allow you to fetch nonbasics very comfortably. Shackle and Verdict take effect on the same turns except that Shackle will stay and give you a hold on the field. In my experience, one-time sweeps aren't always enough in a deck that wastes as many turns as this one digging for win-cons.

The reason why I asked about why anyone would play less than 4 counterbalance is because I originally played the 3/1 main/board split and then my friend asked me this very simple question: Why don't you play 4 Counterbalance in your Counterbalance deck? I know this deck is called Miracles but that's not what its really about. Most of my games are won through CB/Top locks + Clique beats/Jace. I have won only very few games off the back of Entreat for lethal. My entreats are usually for 1-3 Angels and allow me to get a board position that may or may not win me the game. The faster I get CB/Top online, the faster I can actually start winning the game... not before. Also, given how this deck is a CB/Top deck, it has glaring issues with CMC 2-3 spells. FoW, Terminus, Jace, Venser, Elspeth, and all of the goodness of this deck is simply inconvenient cost-wise... and yet, CB remains focal to this deck's strategy. Being stuck with 2 copies of CB in hand is marginal while leaving your Top unaccompanied for multiple turns is unacceptable.

I have been tinkering with all the color combinations possible (I even tried Intuition/Loam/Stage-Depths) and concluded that that black splash isn't required for the matchups it is really strong against while the red splash is much needed for SnT decks which happen to be very popular right now. While it is true that Vial decks really despise Engineered Plague, the good old Explosives tend to do enough damage for the rest of the deck is be able to clean up because not all Vial decks play 4 Cavern of Souls. I really tried to make up the "core" of this archetype and ended up with a very tight list with only 5 questionable slots (4th FoW, 4th CB, Counterspell, 4th Terminus or 1st Verdict, and 23 Land or 1st Ponder).

FoW is the best card I can have mainboard against most decks because you simply don't know what to expect at first and how you will have to react. I understand wanting to play less than 4 when you already have a solid counter suite that scales throughout the game (AKA: Blade Control) but for a deck that relies on resolving a Jace on an empty field and keep control of the game with it, taping out for a lethal Entreat, or locking a game down with an early CB/Top combination, I think FoW as a 4-of is a necessity. However, some lists play 3 and still put up good results so I have to leave it as a flex slot.

I discussed CB earlier and I have to leave it as a questionable slot because of the prevalence of lists playing 3/1 splits.

Counterspell is the middleground between FoW early, and FoW late. It grants the same effect at a different, and steady cost. In a deck that is starving for 2 CMC spells, I find Counterspell to be the best complement to its control suite. It isn't particularly great in itself but I find Miracle to be similarly difficult to pilot when too few Counterspells are availlable as when too many are present.

The 4th sweeper is usually a meta consideration and is the closest thing to a flex slot IMO.

22 or 23 lands are probably the right number of lands in this deck, depending on the lands themselves and the manipulation available. I don't think 4 Tops and 4 Brainstorms are enough because Miracles require a brainstorm effect to be considered cards, and because this deck requires a Top to be optimally functional. Shuffling is also an important component and it has to be at will. Stacking the top of your deck for CB is as important as shuffling it to find specific cards, and Ponder gives you that choice. Ponder is also one of the best T1 plays this deck has.

Has anybody else been having issues with Spell Pierce in the main? I really feel like that card is very unreliable in this particular deck.

I think 3/1 Counterbalance is okay, probably even the optimal choice. I played it at Strasbourg (see signature) and I continued doing so. You probably don't have the space/intent to play 4 MB due to serveral different reasons. Some lists just don't have space for that. In some MUs you don't really want to have Balance at all, and in others you don't need multiples - though in the vast majority of MUs you would want 4 MB - so to me personally it comes down to slot-problems.
4 Force of Will is just that good. You are right saying that you need answers that answer varied cards from decks/strategies you did not expect. Playing 3 often comes with a low bluecount, but I really think that 4 is correct right now - especially with the decline of Jund and the yet-again uprising of Combo, namely MonoU Show and Tell.
22 lands... 23 lands... oh this topic again :D I think the solution lies somewhere between. I decided to play 23, but including one Mishra's Factory - which shouldnt really count as a 100% land due to the colorless mana it produces and the ability to turn into a creature. I am still feeling comfortable with this choice.

Greetings

As I like this deck so much it is not DTB anymore...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Shackles was awesome until Abrupt Decay was made. Now it's questionable.

Supreme Verdict is better anyways: mass removal, can't be countered, pitches to FoW. Perfect for a control deck that wants to supplement their Terminus/StP package.

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I disagree; shackles is still good against most of the decks that run Decay, mainly because of 'Goyf obviously. Lots of people play Meddling Mage naming Decay and protect the Mage with CB/FoW, etc. This allows for the denial of their best removal spell, whether they like it or not. Also, IF Decay is your concern, why not just play a couple/3 Surgical Extraction? That way, you can bait it out and then not worry about it the rest of the game.

-ABC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koplinchen

As I like this deck so much it is not DTB anymore...

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You are probably right. What are the tools to handle BUG/Deathblade to push us back to the top? Or is it just that they are the flavour of the month decks?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

I have been tinkering with all the color combinations possible (I even tried Intuition/Loam/Stage-Depths) and concluded that that black splash isn't required for the matchups it is really strong against while the red splash is much needed for SnT decks which happen to be very popular right now. While it is true that Vial decks really despise Engineered Plague, the good old Explosives tend to do enough damage for the rest of the deck is be able to clean up because not all Vial decks play 4 Cavern of Souls. I really tried to make up the "core" of this archetype and ended up with a very tight list with only 5 questionable slots (4th FoW, 4th CB, Counterspell, 4th Terminus or 1st Verdict, and 23 Land or 1st Ponder).

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I respectfully disagree. Your argument is solid and pretty much aligned with Joe/Oarsman's finding. However, do you remember how he lost to Dark Maverick at Seattle when it went for GSZ into G Teeg? EE is not fools proof. G Teeg can shut down many, many miracle cards. With Black, you can just Dread of Night + Humility, that would pretty much ruin all the white (death and taxes...etc) and some green decks (Maverick except dryad arbor).

If Death and Taxes and Stoneblade/Deathblade are popular in your local meta, I would still recommend Black splash.

If Show and Tell decks become popular, before you derive the conclusion of Red splash, try Ethersworn Canonist first.

Some of your questionable slots have been answered. Joe runs 1 Verdict and he's recently testing w/ Misdirection and Flusterstorm on his stream.

My roommate plays a very hostile Death and Taxes deck with Ghost Quarters, Leonin Arbiter, Revoker , Wastelands and all the usual white trash so I get to play that matchup a whole lot more than i'd like to. The black black with 2 Engineered Plagues in the SB has it really easy G2 and G3 but the red splash feels really good as well. If my meta was infested with DnT/Maverick decks, I would consider additional Sulfur Elementals before switching colors entirely. One thing is for sure though, whenever I land a Vedalken Shackles, he facepalms and I usually win it from there even if he sides in 3 Oblivion Rings and plays 4 Revokers main. Here is the list I have been using the most these past weeks:


Creatures (2)
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (21)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus

Others (14)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)
1 Ponder
1 Karakas
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Celestial Purge
1 Terminus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Venser, Shaper Savant


For DnT I usually do:
-2 Spell Pierce +2 EE
-2 Counterspell +1 Terminus, +1 Wear // Tear
-1 Oblivion Ring +1 Sulfur Elemental
-1 Rest in Peace +1 Venser