Monkey_Island, are you finding that two Eldrazi is enough with the playset of Primetime? Because that seems like a failure point to me.
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Monkey_Island, are you finding that two Eldrazi is enough with the playset of Primetime? Because that seems like a failure point to me.
I have been running this configuration of creatures for a long time (since way before TC release) and I have found it to be enough. There are numerous winning lists with 7-8 (+Ulamog) creatures...Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Edit: I need to learn basic mathematics, I have 6 creatures not 7! But still I had good succes with it in my local meta.
Played in my local with the following list, going 2-2:
Round one I play against UG Infect. Game one ends with a 20/20 Indestructible token hitting him, and game two ends with a turn two Show and Tell into Emrakul.Quote:
Originally Posted by winglerw28
Round two I play against a local Goblins brewer. Game one he double Wastelands me and then gets a Goblin Settler and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker onto the battlefield, leaving me with a Courser of Kruphix and 0 lands in play. Unable to ever catch up in this scenario, I scoop to save time and board in some BEBs to hopefully stop him. Alas, game two ends in a similar fashion. He has the ability to Kiki-Settler me out, but I have Dark Depths and activate it during my turn to make my 20/20 and attack the next turn. He copies a Goblin Matron, gets Stingscourger and attacks me dead.
Round three I play against UR Delver and mulligan and sideboard horribly. I don't know what I was thinking when I was playing this match, but my head wasn't in the right place. I end up getting a Primeval Titan dazed and a second Forced by not playing around his spells properly on my end. Game two I stabilize but have no threats on board, and draw five lands in a row. He is able to pay through a Tabernacle due to also having many lands and a Young Pyromancer gets him there several turns later.
Round four I win against a weird mono blue Stiflenaught/Eater of Days deck. I allow him to resolve his 9/8 and 12/12 and then on my turn get a 20/20, search for and cast Emrakul, and cast a second Primeval Titan in a single turn. Needless to say, I won. The second game goes similarly and we are kind of joking around at this point since we are out of prize contention and he knows he is playing a bad deck for fun. After our match, he takes out Nic Fit and I similarly run him over given that matchup is nigh impossible to lose.
I wanted to test against the local storm player, but everyone wanted to leave so I didn't get the chance. We usually go as a group for food afterwards, and I felt like it might be a bad idea to potentially expose the Tabernacle I'm borrowing to spilled soda or somesuch so I will have to pick up the storm testing today, tomorrow, or Friday.
The biggest takeaway from my games was that the mainboard Force of Wills were awesome but the blue count is probably too low and I need to be able to search for Dark Depths a bit more consistently. This sideboard needs to be rebuilt for this list. Also, Treasure Cruise is really clunky early game. All in all, this leads me back to a list much closer to Dylan Cox's 9th place list.
// Creatures
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Thragtusk
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Trinket Mage
1 Dryad Arbor
// Noncreature Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Repeal
2 Flusterstorm
2 Green Sun's Zenith
// "Spell" Lands
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Eye of Ugin
// Mana-producing Lands
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Elephant Grass
Dude those glimmerposts are fresh! Pm me a link to where you had them done?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Into the North can fetch Dark Depths, and playing snow-basics helps keep it live and flexible in cases where you need to accelerate mana rather than a combo. It sees semi-regular play in Snow-Post (it in fact led to the deck's name), but I'm not entirely sure what you would cut for it because when it is played, people tend to play it as a two-of.Quote:
Originally Posted by winglerw28
I been testing the following list. Don't think I will run it for GP NJ unless I can figure out how to beat Burn and UR delver consistently.
Artifact (2)
2 Candelabra of Tawnose
Blue (22)
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Repeal
3 Show and Tell
3 Treasure Cruise
Colorless (2)
1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Green (7)
3 Crop Rotation
4 Primeval Titan
Lands (27)
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
2 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Elephant Grass
2 Flusterstorm
2 Moment's Peace
3 Swan Song
1 Tabernacle at Pendrel vale
This is what I been running I like it other then I still die to Burn and UR Delver. Outside of Show and Tell early with Force for the price I die to burn. Burn is incredibly sucky to play against if they drop a turn 2 Eidolon raining on your cantrip, Cruise parade. UR delver also has you dead incredibly fast if you don't have some bounce or moment's peace to slow down Swiftspears and getting swarmed by Pyromancer tokens might be time for Tabernacle main deck.
I'm seeing lists with 3 Candels and now more back down to 2. Is the 3rd candel worth it? I only own 2 and not sure I want to spend cash on a 3rd.
@Rock Lee
Elderscale Wurm does work in Elves where you can Natural Order or Zenith for it but how are you finding it to play or you boarding multiples to show and tell in? It has 3 green in the cost also so hard to cast.
@maCHOOga
Death and Taxes was already a bad match up even without the Containment Priest with Spirit of the Labryth stuffing your cantrip cruise plan and Aven Mindcensor stuffing your Titan, Map, Fetch plans.
I been testing something similar but with Ulamog instead of Kozilek and slightly different lands still got a Forest in there and not running Tabernacle.
Treasure Cruise in Post is amazing. You can actually cast it for mana without delving. I also do like main deck Force of Will now that you have the blue cards to support it so your not just a lame duck to combo and Forcing turn 1 delver to see them durdle pondering and brainstorming looking for another threat is great.
My issue with post is I can't beat Burn or RU Delver consistently. Chain of Vapor does help versus RU delver you can bounce their Swiftspear after they pumped it a bunch. 4 Leyline of Sanctity sideboard and mulling alot is not the answer. You still can get Priced for a ton. 4 Show and Tell main with adding 2 Wurmcoil for additional Show and Tell seemed OK but you had some pretty clunky draws which were sub optimal versus other decks and it can also backfire spectacularly when you Show and Tell against sneak and show or Reanimator. Have to try the Dark Depths/Thespian Stage plan see if that helps the burn and ru delver match ups.
BUG Delver is also really rough probably the worst match up. My brother plays it so I get stomped by it alot. Discard + counters + fast clock is hard to deal with.
Has Tabernacle main deck been good? Don't like non mana making lands and without needle to make sure it just doesn't get wastelanded seems risky.
Maybe see you at GP NJ. Was cool meeting you at SCG Edison.
@Sauce
Congrats to Dylan that looks interesting. Dark Depths combo seems good when you have crop rotation and map to search for it.
@Winglerw28
Interesting list but dunno about boltbait Titania. I'd run Thragtusk number two before I run Titania. Seems so risky for bolt bait that also gets owned by Karakas. Letting your Chasm drop to get recured when you can get Priced for a ton at any moment doesn't sounds worth it. Vesuva Chasm, sacrificing old Chasm sure but not paying the upkeep and letting an opening to get Priced just seems not good.
Have Dryad Armor, Tabernacle, Dark Depths and Thespian Stage been worth the extra clunky lands you really don't want in your opening hand? How is assembling the Dark Depths combo with out Map?
@Zotmaster
Does running Dark Depths + Thespian Stage and Tabernacle make some clunky draws where you have 1 or more of those in hand and no colored mana?
Cantrip bounce/candel cruise bonanaza is awesome till your opponent drops a turn 2 Eidilon then your thinking you take 2 just to bounce it and it comes down again and your bonanza stops.
I think you want Force of Will main deck and Flusterstorm is board against Storm and decks with counters. You can Force of Will turn 1 Belcher/Delver/Spy. You can't counter those with a Flusterstorm.
That is some sweet Alters.
You sideboard out Titania against Price of Progress decks anyhow. Also, my most recent post updates the list to be a Top/Map list over a cantrip list due to that reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
EDIT: Updated my list and am testing it tonight. Update is in my signature if you click the link.
I didn't play much lately, but as for now i never had great issues against those decks. Maindeck Moment's Peace, and sideboard Chalice of the Void, Tabernacle, Dark Depths combo + counterspells really shore these matchups for me. I'm not sold on Chain of Vapor, it seems a really bad removal that in corner case situations you may be really scared to cast (i.e. against a UR player while you have a candelabra/titan in play and you really need to untap with it to win).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
Just a short note : right now I'm on a list similar to Mr. Fox, playing 2 Trinket Mage and 2 GSZ. For the Burn and UR Delver MU I will try Zuran Orb, Ivory Tower and BLIGHTWIDOW in SB. Played the Blightwidow some time ago and loved for stopping Delver, GG etc... Usually kills one dude and eats a bolt, so most of the time saved me 6 life (plus removing a threat, or just two bolts..).
I like the idea of Blightwidow but isn't Stingerfling Spider strictly better ?
It's different, and interesting. But also 5 mana instead of 4...and about the Widow I love the infect a lot! A Swiftspear would survive a block by Stingerfling (if opponent casts one spell), but would be killed by the Widow because of the counters at the end of the turn ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by edk
Blightwidow is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it is better than just playing some Courser of Kruphix. Blocking in the air is relevant against Delver, yes, but often you care more about Young Pyromancer and Monastery Swiftspear. Then again, I do like the idea of shrinking Goyfs.
I'm going to try it in my testing over the second Courser of Kruphix in my list and see how it does.
In the question mark slot in your decklist link, I'd suggest trying Into the North (although as I mentioned above, it's normally a two-of when played). It can search Dark Depths and your basics (If you switch them out with Snow-Basics).Quote:
Originally Posted by winglerw28
The question mark is Titania, and I don't feel Into the North is necessary (or all that good) with the current build. Expedition Map has made the deck much more consitent in finding it, especially backed by the digging power of Courser + Top. I will test Into the North but I was never impressed with it, even in mono green post when I tried that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Tabernacle maindeck has been amazing. One key to beating delver is to slow down their gameplan. From my various playtesting, they will let all the tokens die in addition to the pyromancer. When it gets stacked up with an elephant grass it makes attacking virtually impossible. Then you just have to live long enough to get a primetime out and not die to burn spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
I think Burn is just obnoxious and I just plan to dodge it at the GP. Go-go gadget byes! :-)
Actually, for both scenarios, I'm thinking about running Chill sideboard. I think the best way to beat both decks is grind them to a halt with taxing effects or gain boatloads of life. Chill slows down burn and also slows down delver. These decks run very low land counts so I think it's reasonable.
The issue I'm running into is I feel like I'm diluting my deck by oversideboarding for these matchups.
For GPNJ, I think it's worth considering playing Chill in the main as a 2-of, and pushing for a more anti-Red build.
Preboarding works great about X% of the time, where X=the deck's prominence in the metagame. I'm not sure what that number should be to justify preboarding, but I'm pretty sure it should at least be in the 80% range. While URx Delve(r) is the biggest boogeyman in the room, it's not the only one. Here's the current MTG Goldfish statistics (Not sure how useful they are, but it's a starting point). Also, as much as I love taxing effects in MUD-Post, they are only as useful as their follow-up. So, I'd probably play Lodestone Golem since it both taxes and beats together, but considering how much time that cold buy us, even though I'm skeptical I'm sure it'd be an interesting shot, but ultimately probably better in the side. Test it and let us know how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Edit: here's an interesting statistic I found browsing Mtg Goldfish:12-Post Deck choices of MTGO players.
Can't wait to finally have a Tabernacle in my grubby little hands for this weekend. I will be at SCG Columbus this Sunday and I will be at GP NJ for the whole weekend next week. Assuming people still enjoy my reports, I'll probably do them for both events like I have in the past...although hopefully with better results than my first SCG open ;)
Hey Rock Lee what's the list your looking at playing next weekend?
Can someone explain all the reasons to play chain of vapor, ive seen a lot of you playing it in your list and I still haven't adopted it yet into my list because Im not fully understanding it.
Here's a little brew I just made up primarily to beat UR delver. Its largely inspired by lands, so its a bit unorthodox.
Creatures (6)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4x Primeval Titan
Spells (24)
4x Exploration
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
4x Crop Rotation
3x Show and Tell
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise
Lands(30)
3x Tropical Island
3x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
2x Island
1x Forest
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Maze of Ith
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Eye of Ugin
The mazes are basically permanent removal versus UR since they dont run any wastelands. Couple that with their low land count and 1-2 mazes and a tabernacle does a great job at locking them out. This is similar to elephant grass/repeal, but works throughout the game. You can even double or triple up your maze activations with candelabras.
Exploration is much better with cruise than with top. Drawing 3 will often net you 1-2 lands in the process and once you have an exploration out, those can come out very quickly. They also help mitigate the fact that I'm running 7 non-mana producing lands.
Biggest problem has been that the deck is a bit subject to its topdecks if I run out of cantrips/dont have a treasure cruise. I think adding 2 tops back in for a couple of slots may help alleviate that strain, since topdecking with this deck is basically just drawing lands.
I have talked about playing Maze of ith vs UR delver last weekend. If you don't play 3-4, you have no shot seeing one naturally early enough to cack away Swiftspear.
G2 they bring in Price so it gets more dangerous to run out nonbasic lands that do not even tap for mana.
I don't post my lists the night before, since certain worcester folk scout this thread the week before larger local events (x4 Trop for 1st event tomorrow).Quote:
Originally Posted by chris80rowland
I am trying something interesting tomorrow though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Well I'm running maze as a 4 of and its been pretty great at buying time, especially with tabernacle. G2, you always have a bunch of lands for pop to hit anyways and maze helps buy time vs delver and swift spear
playing a fairly heavily modified version. i like it much better than the original lists with a ton of bounce and praying.
8 creatures
4 Primeval Titan
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Dryad Arbor
27 spells
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Repeal
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Show and Tell
25 lands
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Vesuva
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Oblivion Stone
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Elephant Grass
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
since the deck needed to be faster i added a full set of candles crops and gsz. gsz is great with dryad arbor early game especially with crop rotations, and great late game to get titans. On really stellar draws you can gsz for titan on t3, otherwise t4 is much more common with this configuration.
usually very happy to see cyclonic rift, mainly because it wins games. ultimate time buying spell and requires only 1 color.
never really happy to see glacial chasm so i moved it to sb. primeval titan was alway better at fetching glimmerposts.
i found show and tell to be less than stellar because i was often searching for a creature and when i did have one it was usually titan so gsz helps offset those show and tells being cut. still 1 in there because I'm not sure what would do better in its place.
Its easier to stay alive if they can't keep anything on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris80rowland
Also, I noticed on the MTGgoldfish it says 12-post is 1.86% of Meta, which is interesting.
UR Delver MU still feels brutal. Guess I will treat it as enemy no 1 (besides combo) and tune the deck for this MU. Cards to consider are Elephant Gras (again), Propaganda, Tabernacle and perhaps even Sphere of Resistence plus Chalice in SB.
Having main deck force of wills and tabernacle have helped out against U/R delver a lot for me so far. Along side of 2 chills and 2 grass in board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
Chill sounds interesting, especially with BEBs. FoW main feels strange, don't like the card disadvantage against non-combo decksQuote:
Originally Posted by Klobster
Played turbo eldrazi in a 31 man yesterday. Cut to top 8, finished salty 9th.
Round 1 (1-0) bulldoze esperdeath blade
Round 2 (1-1) my opponent knows I'm on turbo eldrazi, so he purposely mulligans to find one of two maindeck bloodmoons. He turn 2's a bloodmoon with force backup. We both durdle for a bunch of turns, so I try show and tell, put in emrakul. He meets me with a sneak attack, sneaks Grislebrand draws 14 and sneaks emrakul. Game 2, I win the counter war and ride a Primetime to victory. Game 3 plays out like game 1, with out the "Hail Mary" show and tell.
Round 3 (2-1) I bulldoze miracles.
Round 4 (2-2) play against death and taxes. In game 1, I ultimately die with a handful of lands and no action. Game 2 I gum up the board with Thragtusk, tabernacle and elephant grass. Eventually hardcast emrakul. Game 3, spirit comes down with me having brainstorm x2 and ponder. I cast a ponder already, so I'm tapped out. The game drags on. Ultimately end the game with 3 brainstorms in hand, emrakul and 14 mana available. Spirit is a beating!
Round 5 (3-2) more death and taxes. I get there game 1. Game 2 there's a play mistake that buys me enough time to churn primetimes and thragtusks. Game two goes to time, were trolling each other a lot, he's at 50 life. I hardcast emrakul on turn 1 and take the remainder of the turns. :-)
Overall, I'm still not 100% sure on my 2 thragtusks. They are great at buying time and putting people on tilt. My only issue is it just hangs out and really doesn't effect the board state. At this point, I'm not sure he good enough. I want to try a removal spell in those spots in the upcoming week. Engineered explosives, ostone or masticore? Hmmm...
Ya normally I don't like FoW in fair match ups either. But I've been Losing with cards in hand. I may need to really think about how I'm losing. But when I moved the FoWs to main it's great hitting that early threat, hitting their cruise can be back breaking since the threats are small and need to be fueled by jamming everything in hand, or those rare times you draw double cruise in opener. So far 3 forces MD has been working good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
Well, I was going to have a report for SCG Columbus, but then this one went and crippled himself the day before and ended up in the hospital instead. Hopefully I'll still make it to Jersey and not walk off a cliff or something :P
Dude what happened? You okay?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Speedy recovery!
Disregard, double post
So, ended 7th in a 45 man tournament with this:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Vesuva
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul
1 Ulamog
1 Trinket Mage
3 Sensei Top
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
3 Show and Tell
2 Moment's Peace
1 Treasure Cruise
SB:
4 Force of Will
3 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
Undefeated in swiss, lost 1-2 to B88 and his Next-level Canadian in quarterfinals (you may find his list in the RUG delver thread). Overall the losses came from pretty strong hands by him and probably some plays i'm not sure were correct after all. Also, probably i had my luck reserve drained over by getting 3 consecutive Miracle rounds in swiss. This is my 7th top 8 in a row out of 7 tournaments, so I can't really say i'm unhappy with the deck, but i'm not sure about some cards i took with me:
2nd Chalice of the Void: not sure it was worth it, probably i should swap it for something more functional (Meekstone?)
Treasure Cruise: sometimes nice, sometimes i wished it were the 4th top. Never really important, though. Maybe swapping it with Dig Through Time? Or should i up the count shaving something else to really see its potential?
Maindeck Bojuka Bog: is it worth a maindeck place?
Also, i chose not to bring in Dark Depths combo against Canadian. What do you think about this choice?
A very nice list, not too different to mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
I prefer to play minimum of three Chalices in order to have turn 1 hate against combo but that's about all I have to say to that matter. One copy seems very light.
I see Bog as one of the better utility lands because it taps for mana, the effect is very relevant and you can Crop Rotate it away without hard feelings. I have trouble fitting in Chasm instead.
I approve of leaving Depths combo out against Canadian. They have Stifle and Wasteland after all. Have you tried playing Stage in maindeck and Depths in sideboard? It's something I'd like to test but I simply lack the time for this game nowadays.
Davek I like your list and with the new format I keep coming back to that style list.. Like I always do.
Regarding fighting the actual format, moments peace in high copies fights all of the aggro, and cavern nulls Mass card advantage! Easy fixes IMO. Bog is still a MD IMO.
Bug as a strategy is in a bad spot and that is great news for post. Shaving a top and adding a Mage is an okay change if it feels right to the pilot.
3-4 BEB is perfect too, red is enemy #1 ATM.
I am not sure I fully agree that BUG is in a bad spot. UR delver has a hell of a time beating Tarmogoyf and Abrupt decay can't be countered so BUG can easily deal w/ Swiftspear.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
Also, post board, 3 Disfigure, 2 Golgari charm, 1 Darkblast come in. I played BUG delver (2nd place list from recent SCG) in two 4 round events over the last week. 7-1 only loss was to MUD in 3 games.
This is the list I played - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=75641
Has any number of panglacial wurm been effective here? With candle and post ramping and access to bs/top it seems like it could find a home here.
Legacy staple... in the Battle of wits deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom