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I'm gonna add 2 path to the main by cutting a ooze and moving teeg to sb. So that's a lot of removal but the sb is mostly combo hate so we have rearrangements post board. The mtgo meta is a ablaze with blue otherwise carpets would be something more useful.
Also, I'm cutting choke from sb. I would rather have something else in the sb. Containment priest and garruk relentless may get a go of it.
Regarding sequencing, I won't make that specific mistake against reanimator. I disagree about T1 Explorer being forbidden in all cases. If you're on the play, it's fine - I have no problem with someone wasting a Force of Will on it. This is especially true when running stoneforge mystic, as it increases your odds of getting a Turn 3 Batterskull. If it's game one and I'm on the play, I wouldn't even have had their first land drop to clue me in to what I should name with Therapy. On the draw you're absolutely correct, unless you know what you're playing against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
My meta is hugely diverse - Seattle has one of the healthiest legacy scenes out there - with a lot of players switching between Tier 1 and 1.5 decks every week (I wish - I'm much more limited in my card availability). This week, everyone brought combo because they were bored with the grind-fest of Miracles and Shardless mirrors.
My list, as played this Monday (see my earlier post for my proposed updates)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Living Wish
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
SB:
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Plague
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Grave Titan
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Path to Exile
I'll probably run Nic Fit minus the stoneforge package next week, just to try something a little bit different and to give Meren a test run.
That is an escape clause for anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
In the end there is no ultimate answer to everything, but only G1 OTP against an unknown opponent playing Veteran Explorer is fine, but but but... it depends on your hand, how are you planning to develop. Also are you a kind of person that goes bluffing by casting that Cabal Therapy? Those kind of plays make an impact on the game on a entire different level. Does your opponent think that you know what he plays? Is he gonna risk that or counter the therapy? If, not, missing your guess (Brainstorm as the most likely hit) you get to see if your Veteran was gonna eat a StP. Etc etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
On the other hand you say that Force of Will on your T1 Veteran is fine. Well in theory the trade is fine 1-2. But if that means you are/get crippled and miss development then that single FoW could have costed you the game on the spot. Everything changes when you know what your up against, but if not, i'd say go for safe. I have lost and learned that the hard way by letting my precious Veteran eat a Stp or FoW/Daze and lost the game for getting behind.
I have been testing two paths and they have won me games. I run 2 paths 3 decays 3 deeds 1 councils judgement (+1 pulse in the sb for the jtms mu). I'm really satisfied with this removal suite. I run 1 cj to have a chance vs an early tnn and because it can get hex proof dudes. In the online meta you must have at least 2 removal spells for jtms (vs him all the other spells are useless ofc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I play teeg and qasali in the main and i have to say that, playing online, teeg is really good especially when you know the opponent has jace in hand. Plus storm is common online.
Carpet might very well be the most useful sb card, seriously. It has gotten me far ahead vs blue decks so many times that I'll never cut it. And at first i put it in the sb nearly as a joke.
I tried ajani mentor, following your list, but i have to say that imo 5cmc garruk is better because it shits 3/3 beasts and actually can DRAW lots of cards in the late game. Plus can be a nightmare against miracles
There's nothing wrong with whiffing on a blind T1 Cabal Therapy if that'll let you know what you're up against. If your Therapy misses, at least you know what's going on and what you need to name the following turn. Worst case scenario, you end up with your opponent discarding his most important card and 3 mana left to do as you see fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Playing T1 Veteran to also draw out STP is also not a bad play, depending on what's in your hand. It really just depends on the rest of your hand. Explorer pass can be perfectly fair, as can Cabal for, say, Brainstorm/STP/FoW/Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Carpet isn't a terrible sideboard card at all, it's just that, in and of itself, it does nothing against Miracles. It lets you cast stuff, sure, but I want high impact "get rolled, loser!" cards against them so I don't have to spend 50 minutes playing Magic against THAT deck.
The Path part of the removal suite is quite good, which is why I don't want to cut it for more fat like Baneslayer. I like 4 Decay/2 Path/2 Deed/2 Deluge right now in Junk.
-Matt
If I can ask, why 2 deeds? Because of the clunkyness? It often feels like the best card to me..Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
What are you using as a sb tech vs the pesky miracles mages?
Because of the Delver decks. Even though it's an excellent card, it's much slower to activate. Sometimes, you really don't have the time to activate it and you need to clear the board right now. As well, against decks like DnT, they can Revoker Deed even in Game 1, and then the matchup is more uphill than you want it to be. Deluge solves a lot of problems, some of them the same, and some different than Deed. The split has been nice.
Sideboard tech? Slaughter Games, Needle, Walkers, Grip, and sometimes even Teeg. Sylvan Safekeeper is quite spicy if you're up to it. Multiple Sigardas, as well. I basically don't want to ever lose that matchup.
-Matt
Yea i dont want to lose to them as well, im willing to build the sb with only them (and storm) in mind..i will try the 4-2 splitQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I think my board right now is something like:
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg
-Matt
No extirpate/se for the storm mu?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
E: sorry for all the questions mate, I ll shut up now :D
His plan is to slow down the storm player w/ discard & cannonists until he can cast Slaughter Games.
With Jund Nic-Fit at least the Miracles are good match up and you want more lands to play more PFire.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Sure, it helps the mircal player if he gets more land. We have more thearts in nic-fit and they only thing that are dangours is the mircales gets more angels. But we usally have deed and tosic for that.
TL;DR
We still win more then we sac Veteran.
No we don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
What's the verdict on Dryad Militant as graveyard hate? Is having GY hate that GSZ can find worth the vulnerability to removal and shutting off half of Therapy?
Ive been using it for quiet some time it does wonders vs storm and dredge and is lackluster vs reainamtor.
I've been wondering people's thoughts on how many vets and therapies they leave in against miracles.
I like playing SFM so I'm comfortable deploying major threats at 2 mana and then curving out. Soo usually board out the whole package and add in two of the thoughtsiezes from my board so I have that option.
What does everyone else do? and why?
Veteran -2 or -3, leaving 1 MD. This so i have access to be able to have it in rare situations where you actually want the trigger. Nowadays i run 2 Carpets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Therapy depends on the play (3-4 md) or draw (2-3 md) AND how i board in total. I never have a fixed plan, but go as feel fit. I wanna know my MU strength and weaknesses by heart instead of using a pre planned cheatsheet board plan. Miracles, can often be just a draw go game and have time to develop your manabase. I always leave the innitiative to the miracles player and be the control deck until i can hit him hard. This is for PFire. With Junk you can take more innitiative and drain him. This also depends on the Miracles build offcourse (Mentor/SFM/RiPhelm/Legends/Regular).
Also Therapy is better against the Legends or SFM builds.
I replace them with at least 2 carpets..people often even force it when I play it turn 1Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
And also, people in here used to run tsunami. Does that change the way you play it? Do you let them fetch up a bunch of lands off your vet triggers so you can tsunami them away, or do you just let them find them naturally and then pull the trigger?
@bobmans, as far as I'm concerned working out a cheat sheet or memorising the matchup are the same thing, you always should be willing to deviate from it on the spot depending on the game you're opponent
And that's what I used to do, leave one as a gsun target incase I need it and then bank my therapies until I wanted to resolve something. That said, I've never played draw-go against miracles, punishing fire is sweeeet.
@rubblekill, truth. I need to try them.
Some creatures I though about at work:
Krosan beast - 4cmc 8/8
Giant solifuge - haste shroud 4/1
Troll ascetic - hex proof
Terrovore
River boa - personal favorite
Loxodon smiter
Xenagod
What do you all think?
I have thought about smiter myself, but the "discard ability" is not really amazing in legacy (only good vs bug), and the uncounterability is not that good If you play only 1 as a gsz target..and at that point for a 3 drop id rather have kotr, a card that i have been liking lately as 1ofQuote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Ascetic is a bad thrun and krosan beast is a vanilla monster..i think these creatures are only cute..we d rather play thrun because at least he has some sort of protection..sigarda thrun are the monsters i like: "safe" creatures that force the opponent to have terminus
There are better options. I do like your taking time to dug thru the creatures and suggest stuff.
Krosan beast < Wolfir Silverheart
Giant solifuge: most interesting of the bunch. Only that it gets chumped by everything.
Troll ascetic < Thrun
Terrovore < Tarmogoyf
River boa < Strangleroot Geist / Scryb Ranger
Loxodon smiter < Thrun < Obstinate Baloth
Xenagod: doesn't have enough impact and is not good on its own. Might be in the slot of Meren.
Beast is an 8/8 for 4 by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Goyf is 2. 3 cmc is less likely for a deed sweep and will often times be bigger.
I like boa for the island walking.
Xenagod won't get bounced by karakas or swords'd
Okey, how much do we lose to it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
It's better then Carpet becasue you can attack and block with veteran. Carpet only gives your mama but don't make you win games. It's better to have sideborad against combo.
OkQuote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Edit: Arianrhod, i have been digging the new and old thread for your analysis of what creature need to bring to NicFit lists, but was unable to find it after an hour of search or so. If you read this, can you post it? Perhaps it deserves a chapter in the OP? Some are lost in the shit load of creatures that NicFit has access to.
I wouldn't totally write off troll ascetic, it's obviously worse than Thrun, but it could be good if you already have a Thrun. I've been considering it in my SFM builds because, well hexproof and equipment... It gives you a really nice curve of options as well if you want it:
3 CMC
Card advantage: E wit
Resilient sword carrier: troll ascetic
4 CMC
Card advantage: Meren
Resilient sword carrier: Thrun
5 CMC
Card advantage: Tragtusk
Resilient sword carrier: Sigarda
Being able to make your opponents removal dead or always a 1 for 2 is pretty great, something that knight and rhino can't do.
Edit, for example:
2 Top
4 Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
1 Painful Truths
4 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
4 GSun
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Vet Exp
1 Scooze
1 Ewit
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Meren
1 Thrun
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda
21 lands plus the dryad arbor
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrub
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
61 card special, cut the tusk, a diabolic intent or troll ascetic if you want 60
That's 8 sac outlets and 8 vets and 4 SFM you're happy to sac in the early game. Got card advantage out the ears, 10 tutor effects (and two tops and a recall) that can fetch removal, life gain, hand pressure, clocks and your sideboard cards. You can vet into therapy and go massive with deed/Gsun or you can pressure early with SFM etc etc
Similar experience here. Great way to bait out a Force and even better for the home team if it resolves.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I don't know that I'll have any better luck finding it. I'm planning on updating the primer with recent developments at some point in the fairly near future, since it's been a good 6-8 months since it's been touched. I could see about adding a section then, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Everything's been pretty quiet around me magic-wise the last couple of weeks, mostly because thanksgiving holiday. Going to Mythic next Saturday for their next 2k, just going to run back my previous list with a couple of minor changes which I'll post at some point either before or after the event. It's basically the same list, just a couple tunes. I should've been 6-0 in the matches I played on the day, so I can't really complain about anything (should've beat bug delver in r1g3 as previously noted; but I also found a line whereby I would've beat Bryant as well).
Is diabolic intent a must as a 1 of in the deck? People that play it, has it been a powerful option in your experience?
The card gets better when you're running more cards that aren't grabbed by GSZ - Baneslayer, Recurring Nightmare, P. Fires, Grove, etc. I think Junk, it's fine, I think it's better in Jund since assembling the Fires engine is the way to really win in that deck. It has been powerful when I played it, but when I cut Nightmare, I cut it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I think if you own one, try it out, and if you don't, the ten or so Euro expense is worth it.
I like it because if you run SFM it means you can up the number of cards that require saccing your creatures, which means you can more consistently sac your veterans.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I like it because this curve is very plowerful: T1 Vet Exp, T2 Diabolic intent fetch SFM cast SFM fetch BSK (or sword).
They then bolt or decay or whatever the SFM and next turn you can untap and cast BSK.
That sequence also works great when you board in hate bears against the combo decks (Canonist/teeg/RIP)
I also like it because in the late game it's better than therapy and can fetch your deeds or whatever spice/hate you have.
And finally, against grindy attrition matchups (BUG/Jund/Lands/Aggro Loam), I know they don't run STP so my Veterans will die eventually and discard is pretty poor, so I board out my therapies, but the intents stay in because the matchups are about threats and end up in top deck wars, so saccing a dryad arbor off a fetch or a lone SFM for a demonic tutor is sweet.
Hope that all makes sense
For the lols, for those that appreciate and play ascetic, have you ever thought about skylasher?
Thanks matt and jain
Scryb Ranger has less power in combat (doesn't kill Delver), but giving a Wild Growth to Forest/Bayou/Taiga AND Vigilance to creatures is nice to. Plus, depending on the build, it adds value to Dryad Arbor and Knight of the Reliquary. Or just multiple DRS activations per turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Yea I once played maverick in my first big local legacy tournament and had scryb ranger in my build cause everyone else did. I soon understood why, gives you so many tricks and sweet plays like bobmans said. I came 4th in the end, a lot of the Japanese scene hadn't seen maverick before so that was cool, and from then on I was sold on legacy and green sun zenith, migrated over from modern and then found the source.
So thanks scryb ranger :)
But... When you are playing deed have to expect a lot from things that cost less than 3 CMC and scryb or skylasher don't cut it unfortunately :/
@Scryb Ranger: Scryb Ranger is good when you have a lot of mana producing creatures (one Scryb adds two mana per turn) and other creatures with tap abilities (one Scryb Ranger tripples the amount of possible activations), it is one of my favourite cards and I have found some pet deck built entirely around it. So for Nic Fit it is usually irrelevant since you have practically zero creatures with tap abilities (Deathrite the obvious exception, perhaps some more) and due to the CMC like already stated.
@Creature characteristics for inclusion in Nic Fit, here is a rough list:
- Not dying to Lightning Bolt.
- Not dying (exiling) to Swords to Plowshares.
- Not dying to Abrupt Decay.
- CMC above 2-3 for better Pernicous Deed activations. Or having persist.
- Not being targetable by Karakas.
- Tutorability (i.e. Green for GSZ or Equipment with Stoneforge, Enchantment with Academy Rector, CMC 1-5 with Birthing Pod, etc)
In addition to this there are some desirable properties, like...
- Extra life gain
- Card Advantage (e.g. Eternal Witness, Broodmate Dragon, Primeval Titan, Huntmaster of the Fells)
- Interfere with combo decks (e.g. Glen Elendra Archmage, Scavenging Ooze)
- Remove common threats upon entering the battlefield (e.g. Reclamation Sage, Qasali Pridemage, Shriekmaw)
- Quick clock (e.g. Grave Titan)
- Surviving against Liliana of the Veil (e.g. Sigarda, Host of Herons)
- Evasion (e.g. Sigarda, Host of Herons)
- Being relevant when facing Terminus (e.g. Thragtusk)
- Killing a Jace, the Mind Sculptor (e.g. Sigarda, Host of herons; Thragtusk)
- Haste is great since it helps killing Planeswalkers (e.g. Stormbreath Dragon, Strangleroot Geist)
I don't know how to put it in a spoiler window, so sorry in advance. On the carpet of flowers topic:
http://i.imgur.com/rc4jsgU.jpg
Won that game because the opponent didn't know that terminus's cmc is 6, so he conceded when he couldn't cast it with the miracle trigger on the stack. Teeg was on the battlefield.
E: this guy was bad, but they seem to force carpet more often than you might think
People find Carpet scary in big monster weird tech.dec. they are afraid we go nuts beyond their control to fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Your opponent was a true digital pimp with his guru basics. Haha how lame.
And I am the poor guy using deltas and miresQuote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
@Ralf, regarding your non-Pod Rock-Fit version (sorry, I can't bring myself to the 'A' word) could I get your opinion on:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
1) Only 1 Sylvan Library? Could we squeeze another one in? Move Qasali or a Lili to the SB?
2) Why no Karakas? Mana base too fragile?
3) Same for Volrath's Stronghold and/or a Recurring Nightmare and/or Diabolic Intent? Too much cuteness?
Here's what I'm looking to try...
Lands //21 excl. Dryad
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
(14/14/14 for B, G or W excl. Dryad)
Spells //26
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
Creatures //14 incl. Dryad
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Veteran Explorer
Sideboard //tuned for my LGS
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.