Re: All B/R update speculation.
I feel like the best comparison example for "changing" a mechanic was when Indestructible was made a keyword.
Before the M14 rules change an effect like a fused Turn // Burn wouldn't have destroyed a creature because even when changing the card's properties via Turn it still would have been indestructible to Burn but after the changes (likely made to power down the gods of Theros) it works as most players expected it would, in that the creature loses indestructibility from Turn and would be killed by Burn.
The M14 rules changes also changed the legend rule which had obvious power level implications (although in fairness they were almost uniformly power level increases).
It wouldn't be unprecedented in the recent era to functionally change a keyword but it would be something they'd likely try to avoid at all costs.
My opinion on it is that it always bothered me that you could Miracle a sorcery at instant speed but giving a sorcery flashback at instant speed doesn't allow you to instantly cast it. Yes, I get why in the complex power balancing and rules management there are good reasons for this but it still always seemed disjointed in my brain given they were mechanics in the same block and it happened to coincide to when I returned to game after like 8 years and was re-learning all new rules anyway.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Impulse was eratta'ed.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
And Walking Atlas.
The only time they issue functional errata is to make a card or cards function more intuitively. Damage on the stack makes no sense from a realistic standpoint. I think the only exception is the removal of the Interrupt type, which coincided with the elimination of batches and the creation of the stack (along with the damage rule). The stack is a simpler, more intuitive way to work than the Instant batch vs. Interrupt batch system prior, so overall it was still for he overall simplicity of the game.
Impulse as printed makes no sense. Look at top 4, pick one, and shuffle; or look at top 4, pick one, and bottom the rest. Having both instructions is odd and they went with what they intended. Atlas is just stupid.
If they stuck with original printings as final, we'd all be wondering how the hell we actually cast Cyclopean Tomb.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
Huh? What did they change on that card?
Quote:
If they stuck with original printings as final, we'd all be wondering how the hell we actually cast Cyclopean Tomb.
They originally banned Orcish Oriflamme because of the mana cost misprint in alpha made it too powerful .. or something. With the new world order maybe they should do a functional reprint of Alpha Orcish Artillery.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
Damage not using the stack is huge when you consider how many cards were absolute power-houses that were reduced to trashy-garbage-trash. Even in the current meta; imagine a guy who can get his damage on the stack against someone with a Jitte, then sac himself; killing the guy, giving no Jitte Counters, and doing whatever his sacrifice do-dad does.
RIP
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...9733&type=card
2006-2010
One of the most fun Magic cards ever printed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rufus
Huh? What did they change on that card?
They made it an artifact.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Momentary blink makes me wet just looking at him. Oh Lord.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
Not really, there are artifacts that ceased to function as intended due to power level; they picked and chose which artifacts would stay tapable when they changed things. In other words, they didn't respect the rule-changes on all artifacts the same; functionally changing the game and the way the cards worked.
E.G. Howling Mine vs. Winter Orb
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Originally Posted by
rufus
Huh, I hadn't noticed that.
Static Orb seems like a better comparison. Are there other artifacts that didn't get the 'as long as ~ is untapped' template?
I've discussed this at length elsewhere, but Winter Orb was given the same errata that Howling Mine was given when the rule first changed. It was only later that Wizards decided that Howling Mine and Static Orb could kept there errata, while it was removed from Winter Orb under the rather spurious reasoning that "it was never printed with that errata, so it should be removed." As was point out above, Impulse had errata for something like 8 years before it was ever reprinted with it's errata, so their reasoning for removing it from Winter Orb is disingenuous at best.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
EDIT: as an aside; it'd take a very different wording to cast it at sorcery speed; because technically you cast it at the end of your draw step IIRC, due to when the trigger resolves (under normal conditions); making it instant speed.
This is a super good point.
If you wanted miracles to only be castable with normal timing restrictions, it would introduce a whole lot more headaches...
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GundamGuy
This is a super good point.
If you wanted miracles to only be castable with normal timing restrictions, it would introduce a whole lot more headaches...
Not that hard:
If this is the first card you draw in a turn, you may exile it instead. If you do, you may cast this card this turn for it's Miracle cost.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
Not that hard:
If this is the first card you draw in a turn, you may exile it instead. If you do, you may cast this card this turn for it's Miracle cost.
Yes! I like this a lot. Way more intuitive. I mean, argue about it all you want, but instant speed mass removal for only one mana is a ridiculous notion. The idea that it made it through R&D makes me think that everyone in that dept. just started eating paint chips one day and couldn't stop.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
- You are exaggerating the gap.
- Your reserch is shallow - in the previous month Miracles was not even the top deck.
- Arguments of proportions and representation aside, having twice as many tops as the other tier decks does not in and of itself mean the deck is dominant! This description would be equally true of a meta with only three tier decks (25%, 25%, & 50%) as it would be of a meta with four tier decks (20%, 20%, 20%, & 40%), or a meta with nineteen tier decks (18 x 5% & 1x 10%)! I'd argue the fist two metas has an oppressively OP deck, where the second merely has a best deck. Miracles, in the current meta, is some where in between.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
Second I disagree with your assessment that by 2012 control was gone and Aggro/control (is that what we are calling Tempo now...?) decks were in control. Control decks still existed.
Aggro/control is a broad termfor any deck with too much disruption to be classed as aggro, but too many fast threats to be classed as control. Tempo decks, along with some midrange (Maverick,etc),tend to be on the aggro end of the spectrum, while other midrange decks are on the control end (BUG, Esper-Blade, Dead Guy, etc). By 2012, pure aggro decks and pure control decks were getting fringier and fringier, while aggro control (midrange and tempo) took most of the meta. It was a dark time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Control used to have to choose between having a good matchup against combo, or a good matchup against agro. You would then use the sideboard to try and shore up the other matchup. Nowadays Miracles is good against both preboard, and can use the sideboard to shore up specific weaknesses rather than improving whole archetype matchups. The ability to have the tools to beat almost everything has always been the control player's dream, and it has been largely achieved in Miracles.
The problem here is that your model is out of date. The Aggro>>Control>>Combo meta is long gone. Most fair decks are now either Midrange or Tempo.
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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
The only truly bad matchups for the deck are fringe decks that rarely make it to the later rounds of a tournament.
Miracles has poor MUs against Team America, Thresh, Patriot Blade, Shardless, and r/g Lands, Aggro Loam, and Infect. I can't imagine its good against Merfolk either.
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Originally Posted by maharis
Countertop decks are prison, not control.
The Counter-Top combo itself is certainly prison-esque. But unlike a typical prison piece like Chalice or a Sphere, CB + Top is reaction based, which makes it a little more akin to playing actual counterspells. Beyond that, the deck packs more counter-magic, draw spells, S2P, sweepers, and fat flyers to finish the job.
This sounds an awful lot like a classic U/W control deck to me! Yeah, 20_counterspell.dec is dead, but this is close.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Hard, one-wincon control is dead as an archetype just because of creature power creep, but there are decks that are closer to in than Miracles. I've played esper thopters and it's pretty close. FWIW, that deck crushed Miracles.
But Esper Thopters is hardly a tier one deck! Miracles is the only tier one deck even resembling classic control. Stoneblade, BUG "Control" or D&T might feel like a control deck if you are playing Delver, Combo, or Aggro Loam. But when I'm sitting on Lands and facing early game Goyfs or Batterskulls, you'll understand that it doesn't feel much like control vs control! Miracles is my only (tier) non-mirror control match.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
[*]You are exaggerating the gap.
Barely.
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Originally Posted by
Crimhead
[*]Your reserch is shallow - in the previous month Miracles was not even the top deck.
Actually, I posted the previous month to point out that in the DTT era, there were more "top decks."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
[*] Arguments of proportions and representation aside, having twice as many tops as the other tier decks does not in and of itself mean the deck is dominant! This description would be equally true of a meta with only three tier decks (25%, 25%, & 50%) as it would be of a meta with four tier decks (20%, 20%, 20%, & 40%), or a meta with nineteen tier decks (18 x 5% & 1x 10%)! I'd argue the fist two metas has an oppressively OP deck, where the second merely has a best deck. Miracles, in the current meta, is some where in between.
Legacy is constrained by the non-portability of decks. I played in a 7 round tournament with Grixis against Tezzeret, Omni, Shardless, Dragon Stompy, High Tide, Hypergenesis, and Painter. You'd never know that five of those decks were in the tournament based on what finished at the top. The tier 1 decks are clear enough in the results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Miracles has poor MUs against Team America, Thresh, Patriot Blade, Shardless, and r/g Lands, Aggro Loam, and Infect. I can't imagine its good against Merfolk either.
Many Miracles pilots say the supposed power of Shardless in the matchup is overblown, and I can definitely say having played TA vs. Miracles that just having Abrupt Decay doesn't mean you're all set. At worst what are we talking about... 40-45% for Miracles? That's pretty close to even.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
The Counter-Top combo itself is certainly prison-esque. But unlike a typical prison piece like Chalice or a Sphere, CB + Top is reaction based, which makes it a little more akin to playing actual counterspells. Beyond that, the deck packs more counter-magic, draw spells, S2P, sweepers, and fat flyers to finish the job.
This sounds an awful lot like a classic U/W control deck to me! Yeah, 20_counterspell.dec is dead, but this is close.
Some of this is semantics, but the fact remains that CB-top is by far the most powerful prison strategy in Legacy today. One-sided, low opportunity cost.... So much better than CotV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
But Esper Thopters is hardly a tier one deck!
Tell me about it :cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Miracles is the only tier one deck even resembling classic control. Stoneblade, BUG "Control" or D&T might feel like a control deck if you are playing Delver, Combo, or Aggro Loam. But when I'm sitting on Lands and facing early game Goyfs or Batterskulls, you'll understand that it doesn't feel much like control vs control! Miracles is my only (tier) non-mirror control match.
I don't disagree, but that doesn't give it a free pass to stick around. Honestly, I'm somewhat on the fence about whether or not it really needs a nerf, but there are two things that have me fighting against counterbalance since we're having the discussion anyway:
1) CB-top's raw power means it's always one printing away from being obnoxious (in this case the Miracle mechanic pushed it way over the top). The interaction is problematic from a fun and logistical perspective and when it dominates the metagame we have problems.
2) Banning Top guts a lot of interesting tier 2 strategies that don't abuse it. It also sends CB to the scrapheap anyway, so just cut the complementary card and let the format breathe.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
...having twice as many tops as the other tier decks does not in and of itself mean...
All decks have same amount of tops, maybe Doomsday Tendrils plays just one , but other than that, SDt is always played in a set.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
All decks have same amount of tops, maybe Doomsday Tendrils plays just one , but other than that, SDt is always played in a set.
This is either an excellent troll, or a mix up of terminology. "Twice as many tops" seems to have referred to topping tournaments. I.e. like top 8, not referring to SDT.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
All decks have same amount of tops, maybe Doomsday Tendrils plays just one , but other than that, SDt is always played in a set.
Painter plays 2 or 3, Nic Fit plays 1 to 3, Pox plays 1 or 2, Thopers play 2...
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Also, Doomsday plays 4 tops, since it's a crucial part for many piles, not to mention the set-up phase.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I just don't see why we'd ever ban Top out of the Counter-top package. Counterbalance wouldn't likely be seeing any play just from Opt/Brainstorm/etc.. It's just too unreliable, vulnerable to discard, etc..
I think the discussion should just be Counterbalance or Terminus *IF* you want a ban. I really would hate to see the random damage that comes from losing Top when it's such a fun card to use. I get it; you'll tell me to play Brainstorm.. but come on. Let me play *some* non-blue decks *sometimes* while still enjoying myself and not just going "Blind Fetch to reduce minimal probability. Drew a fetch? Blind fetch to reduce.." ad nausium while I draw nothing but lands.
I don't think it's been mentioned the nice synergy with Bob, the fact that Nonblue has a hard time with finding enough 1-drops, or the fact that Sylvan Library costs you 4 life to get to card parity. I really can't see why we'd talk about Banning top when it's only a time waster with Miracles or bad players (and I think many would argue that when it's a time waster in miracles it's still bad players.)
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Agreed with Tescrin,
Top is probably only playable CQ off-color.
Anyway I found solution to meta -> Better Nic Fit which crush Miracles :-)
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Many Miracles pilots say the supposed power of Shardless in the matchup is overblown, and I can definitely say having played TA vs. Miracles that just having Abrupt Decay doesn't mean you're all set. At worst what are we talking about... 40-45% for Miracles? That's pretty close to even.
60/40 is nowhere close to even.
Regardless, I never said it was a blowout - I said it was unfavourable. Miracles has many unfavourable MUs among the competitive decks which regularly place (I listed them in the post you've quoted). This is evidently enough to keep Miracles down to ~15% of the meta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
I don't disagree, but that doesn't give it a free pass to stick around.
Nothing should ever get a free pass!
But I believe the more unique a deck is, the bigger a share of the meta it can have before we call it "too much".
Imagine Thresh were sitting at 15-20%. If this were the only competitive tempo deck, that would not be not so bad because it would be contributing a unique element to the meta, and hurting that deck would hurt an entire play-style. On the other hand, if Team America, Patriot Delver, and U/R Delver were also sitting at 5-10% each, the format would stink of too much tempo and reigning in RUG would make a lot of sense.
Similarly my tolerance for Miracles' share of the meta is increased by the fact that it's literally the only classic style control deck which is competitive. If there were other such control decks - especially other counter-top variants - in the top tier, I would tolerate less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
....the fact remains that CB-top is by far the most powerful prison strategy in Legacy today. One-sided, low opportunity cost.... So much better than CotV.
This is not a good metric for what is or is not too powerful. Every single deck in the DTB section puts up better numbers than CotV prison. It's okay for the tier one decks to be more powerful than the tier two decks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
CB-top's raw power means it's always one printing away from being obnoxious (in this case the Miracle mechanic pushed it way over the top). The interaction is problematic from a fun and logistical perspective and when it dominates the metagame we have problems.
Again, I don't consider 15% to be dominating the field - especially with so many poor MUs among the top decks.
As for fun & logistics, in Modern, these concerns seem to trump competitive integrity. I'm personally very thankful that in Legacy it is the other way around!
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Painter plays 2 or 3, Nic Fit plays 1 to 3, Pox plays 1 or 2, Thopers play 2...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipp2293
Also, Doomsday plays 4 tops, since it's a crucial part for many piles, not to mention the set-up phase.
Essentially we are doing mental gymnastics to justify not banning top. Terminus and Counterbalance aren't broken cards, the synergies with top however are. Top is a strong card, likely one that should never have been printed, filling up the banlist with a bunch of objectively mediocre cards is silly.
Which isn't to say I think top should be banned, but let's be real, top is the problem card, it's what enabling those cards to function. It's a card that has two broken interactions already and whose to say they aren't going to make more. We can say almost certainly, they will not be making more "top-esque" cards that break counterbalance or terminus.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Top doesn't break the miracle-mechanic, Brainstorm does. Controlling your draws is great, but if you open with 6 mana cards in your hand and have them stuck there all game, you're gonna lose a lot. That's the drawback to the mechanic, that's why nobody else plays miracles effects, even a one-of Thunderous Wrath isn't worth the risk for Burn.
