Nice how he can unite a thread that is other times as war zone, though!
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Nice how he can unite a thread that is other times as war zone, though!
Miracles is the only exception right now because Miracles is the control deck of the moment, ban miracles and the new control deck that will take it's place will also run those cards....Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Fucking what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Cost is its own curse and reward. I showed Lands to a Tron player this week and he said quite plainly he did not think Legacy was the format for him. I can respect his ability to recognise such things and not push to change things out of a wish or desire to make it fit his wishes. On the flip side its on us to see that we all do this but at a micro level. Some want Top banned, some want Counterbalance, Brainstorm or TNN. These are the same discussions only at a more micro scale. Granted we like to think that knowing what we do and playing as much as we do we are able to say what we think is truly in the formats best interests. This is what is also happening at a more macro level from people who think they have answers too. Really we laugh at them and their wishes, then we go back to arguing about Top/CB/Brainstorm and fail to recognise that really it's the same thing at a different margin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Keeping the format pure is a noble goal, but Wizards has already proven they will do that. TNN is legal despite admittance it was a flaw, leaving Legacy to self regulate. Dig was given a grace period to work itself out and only then was action taken once we had a honest to God best deck in the format in Omnishow. The banning before that happened for the same reason, U/R Delver was top dog, no questions asked and so a banning was called to fix the issue. Really, now we have to admit that issues we have with the format are of personal taste as I can say the format would be better off without Brainstorm while you Crim I know would disagree. Its not cut and dry between us when I think we can both agree that something like Cruise had to go.
With this willingness to show restraint, Wizards has proven that Legacy is a format they are willing to leave to us. Vintage in much the same way gets the same treatment. There is nothing really leaning on Legacy from Wizards point of view now. We get one big event each year where by the winner gets a shiny oversized framed card and to almost any legacy player, winning that would be better than winning the Pro Tour. Why? Because we are not in the grind any more, we are not a cog in the machine any more. I would be prouder lifting a frame of Underground Sea at Eternal then I ever would being crowned a pro player. I am sure I am not alone on this.
It is for me and people like me, people like you, people that a framed picture that is worth maybe 200 bucks means so much to, it is for us and though us that Legacy lives on. That is why these articles do not matter, because this is our format and Wizards for all its flaws respects that and lets us be.
P.S.
You can tell a Vintage or Legacy player by the quality of the Loupe he/she uses when trading, try explaining that to a Standard player. We really are a community into of ourselves.
As someone who has played 1.5/Legacy since 1999 and been bored with the format for over a year because it has become stale as hell from a design perspective, Caleb's proposals (albeit a bit insane) actually seem like they could spark something terrific for the format. With so many huge bans and changes, it would significantly warp the format to the point that it is unrecognizable, and people could brew like crazy and really start fresh and come up with some great ideas while other tier 2+ strategies now would actually have a chance to see play.
The only other time in this format's history that something of that magnitude has occurred is when the Type 1/1.5 list was split and Legacy actually had it's own first crack as a format. It was an extremely interesting time because so many decks could be played without worry of being oppressed by shit like Workshops and Bazaars. The first Legacy Grand Prix in Philadelphia was amazing, because nobody had any clue what would win or do well. The tempo-based Threshold shells that are now ubiquitous with what we see today were barely a known commodity. Ill-fucking-Gotten Gains was the best combo deck. Anything could win.
How would such an overhaul apply today? Can you imagine actively eschewing Force of Will from a non-Merfolk blue deck? Without fear of Show and Tell and Storm killing you on turn two, you could theoretically get away with it. Granted other combo decks would pop up in their place so you'd still probably want it, but you get the idea. But the same shit that has stagnated in this format over the last five years would be gone. Miracles would be gone, Delver decks would be gone (as would most tempo-based shells unless they look like the turds that are in Modern), the fastest combo decks would be gone, Lands would be gone, blue would no longer be the best color, and people would no longer have to whine about being blown out by Wasteland. No more of the "Well I kept the one land Brainstorm/Ponder hand, but got Wastelanded anyway and lost" shit because removing those aspects of the format will tighten mulligan decisions and deck design. Just like back in 2004 when so many decks were driven out of the format due to Workshop and Bazaar and Mana Drain, the same thing could be said today when you remove those types of dominant aspects from the format now.
Granted I don't agree with his selections necessarily, but the premise just seems like it could be something nice to give the format new life, especially after SCG dropping support. My only gripe is that if these types of bans were to happen, unbans of other things would probably need to occur simultaneously. This would spice things up a lot more when completely new decks could come around. Some of these are more obvious, like Earthcraft or Frantic Search. Memory Jar could (and currently could) likely come off because the rest of Storm is neutered, though Mind Twist actually seems a lot stronger when the format slows down like that, but the card still probably sucks. Windfall and Bargain aren't better than things available currently, but Windfall would become super interesting as the format loses those potent draw spells for combo decks.
Di, out of interest, why do you think it is good to remove Lands as a deck? It is one of the best non Blue decks to appear since Elves really, why kill it so?
He said he agrees with the idea, not the list of cards....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I personally don't think it is necessarily good to remove Lands as a deck and I really enjoy it as a part in the format. Lands essentially gave me a free win in round 13 of Grand Prix Indianapolis to clinch top8, so it can stay here as long as it likes. :) I called it out simply because it was among those decks that the proposal in question would effectively kill. Besides, it isn't much of a consolation to being a "great non-blue" deck when Caleb's proposal would effectively destroy the stranglehold blue has over the format in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I'm rather objective when it comes to these banning ideas myself (except Show and Tell, that needs to get the fuck out of here), but instead just want to see the theoretical impact of something like this on the format. My entire argument just wrapped around the premise that existing decks and format pillars being removed would inspire the Legacy community to collectively need to start over. It would eliminate the stagnation we have been seeing the last couple years and force people to try something new. Sure, people can make the argument that new decks occasionally pop up and do well and cards get added to decks and things evolve, but Legacy has proven to be incredibly consistent with what sticks to the top for prolonged periods of time. Unfortunately though that is just dull as hell, and being a person who has played the format for 16 years and helped build the foundation for it, that just doesn't seem very interesting anymore when we are playing adaptations of the same trifecta of decks over and over for years on end.
I realize it isn't in the spirit of "Eternal" formats to enforce change and transition, but it also isn't in its spirit to suffocate a format that is supposed to be regarded for being able to play a wide range of decks and remain competitive. It's pretty sad when we have a card pool as large as we do, and yet the number of viable decks is similar to the number of viable decks in Standard. Too often do we hear people complain that they ran into Delver for the 5th time on day one of an event, or played the same 2-3 decks over the course of a tournament. I do believe change is necessary if it gets to that point, which is where Legacy currently sits at. So having something like a big shakeup seems like a great remedy for the situation. Simply banning or unbanning one card likely won't have that kind of impact (barring something as ubiquitous as Wasteland, Brainstorm, Force of Will, etc.). Looking at the latest string of unbans, they have had virtually no impact on the format. The last time an unban has had any sort of relevant impact on the format was Time Spiral in freaking 2010, and before that 2009 when Entomb was unbanned. That was five years ago! And when something gets banned--just take the recent examples of Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time, or even the other most recent example before that in Mental Misstep--the format just reverts to exactly what it was beforehand, and it's like it never happened.
I disagree with Caleb. The banning of ponder is not even backed by any reasoning. Those suggested bans kill multiple decks and would discourage me from playing legacy. I enjoy playing around wasteland, hitting with cabal therapy after a brainstorm was casted in response, and being able to chain cantrips to generate lethal damage.
At least you'd still have Preordain (and Serum Visions) since he forgot to mention Preordain. Also, Lotus Petal, Dark Rit, Rain of Filth and Bubbling Muck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berserking Now
Someone should punch Caleb in the face. Go play Modern and Lego if you dont like MtGQuote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Caleb, I hope you step on a LEGO. Just kidding, :tongue:.
This is what bothers me and it's not just Caleb's article that starts this way:
"It all started when I realized I was playing more Modern than Legacy on MTGO, and I started thinking about why, and I realized that a large difference in the quality of play between the two formats comes down to the existence of one card in particular."
The whole premise of all these 'let's completely redefine the format' articles are based on the fact that the format is not what the author wants to play. Well why don't they go play something else rather than altering everything to be the way they personally want it to be?
The Source should host Cockatrice tournaments each week with a different banned list. Could be a lot of fun for people who want to brew something, or who want to prove a point about what should or shouldn't be on the B/R List.
I like that idea. I would love to see what Recruiter could do.
Lands with Strip Mine!
Withtout loam, and it's OK. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
I would be more interested in Lands with Fastbond as a real test. Strip Mine is not a happening thing, but Bond could work. (Ok, not really.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Not sure if durward's article is meant to be taken that seriously.
Bare in mind for the section about ponder, he simply leaves the two word argument of "fuck it", heck his closing statement features a picture of grumpy cat and mentioning how it would hit legacy players "right in the salt dispenser".
So how many posts was that before someone got it? Pretty embarrassing. Is The Source the most easily trolled online Magic community? Maybe there should be a poll thread about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds