what can MUC do against merfolks? I play MUC and merfolks is a matchup that gives me a huge headache.
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what can MUC do against merfolks? I play MUC and merfolks is a matchup that gives me a huge headache.
I have been playing a lot MUC for some time and I also had heavy merfolk issues.
- What helps: god draws, massively flooded / screwed opponents, propaganda, powder keg, dreadnaught and stifle (if its mono u) - you just race them, wining the dice roll.
But all in all its really a horrible matchup if you are straight muc without any splash. Adding a light w-splash for swords for example can be really nice if you can protect your white mana (might also be good against other hard aggro matchups). But even this makes it not more then 40 %.
If you are in a really heavy merfolk meta, just dont play muc. At least splash white for swords.
Where I play there aren't so much merfolks, just 3 or 4 people from 60.
But I'm worried about that matchup because I plan to go to the GP with MUC, this version
// Lands
23 [P2] Island (3)
// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
// Spells
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Counterspell
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
3 [TE] Propaganda
4 [ZEN] Into the Roil
4 [SC] Stifle
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [US] Annul
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TE] Chill
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
This version works cool.
I played muc with black splash before but I dislike playing this deck with fetches, since I play it with just 23 islands it's OK.
The problem is merfolks, I think with black splash back I would be able to do something with the engineered plague but they have lots of lords + aether vial that f*cks my counters. So that's the problem.
Also, what do you guys think about my deck?
Is the AK really turning out nice for you?
I think it could be awesome to play the new Jace in MUC.. just because..wel.. he is insane :cool:
Yes ak is good because it has a good combination with FoF and can give 2 or 3 cards as instant if you are in a hurry.
About the rest, what's your opinion?
Yeah, I always enjoy to work on MUC :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Serginho
Some questions.
What is the purpose of Stifle? Countering fetchlands? What do you need the tempo for. The same goes for Submerge in the board?
How is Accumulated Knowledge working for you, and how is it superior to Ponder? I mean, the first AK just cantrips. And then you need to find a second AK to net a card.
Edit: Moonlight beat me to this.
Edit 2: You still need to survive to cast FoF. Just saying. I usually have no problems after I cast FoF, more to survive until i can cast it.
What are the advantages of Into the Roil over Repeal? OK, Into the Roil can bounce Gaddock Teeg. Anything else?
What do you need Annul for? Where is it better than Spell Pierce?
I use at least 3 Pithing Needle in my 75 to kill Aether Vial. And to stop Sensei's Top/Planeswalker/Manlands or even Quasali Pridemage.
I'm generally against a splash. But what about red for Firespout. And perhaps Pyroblast in the board. With Scalding Tarn, you could even keep the splash basic for B2B.
Regards, LiRaz
Edit 3: No Powder Keg? Really?
- I like Sphinx as finisher. Would be more awesome in combination with fetchlands.
- I dislike Stifle Maindeck without Wasteland. In my eyes, Stifle MD is played usually (unless your meta is 30% storm combo and 20 % belcher) because you want to disrupt the Manabase of your opponent along with Wasteland and probably even Sinkhole. I know Stifle is very versatile, but the main idea is attacking Manabase in my eyes. So I would not play Stifle in your deck at all.
- Is Into the Roil really that much better then Echoing Truth or Repeal?
- If you play straight MUC without splash, I think Powder Keg is a must (at least 3 MD). Otherwise you need EE.
- I would play Spell Pierce over Annul.
- For what do you play 2 Chill? I think 4 BEB, Powder Keg and 4 Propaganda will take good care of goblins.
- One rough idea against Merfolk I just discovered: Llawan, Cephalid Empress. Could also be nice in the mirror.
My suggestion:
MD:
- 4 Stifle + 4 Powder Keg
Sideboard:
- 2 Chill - 4 Annull + 4 Spell Pierce + 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
@Accumulated Knowledge
Which card draw is basically a questions of preference. For me, Ancestral Vision works very fine and is the choice, for others, its worse then counsel of the soratami. Knowledge is okay in my eyes.
EDIT: 1rakete I have read your edit after posting this message, I will try your changes.
First, thank you very much for your replies.
@Link Ramirez: & @1rakete:
-About Annul, I prefer it rather than pierce because against decks like painters, white control(seems easy but can be annoying), stax, counter/top or dreadstill it is like a counterspell, it has no conditions. Anyway, I haven't teste spell pierce in it's place so I'll try it.
-About stifle, I read in this tread someone that said that he changed his 4x force spike for 4x stifle. I tried it and the difference is huge. Stifle can turn the game at the first turns to your side quitting a fetch, or in late game can make that eternal witness that would own you in just a 2/1 for 3 mana or save your shackles/B2B/Propagandas from a evil EE. I think it's not only for tempo decks, if you combine it with B2B has very utility.
If I changed it, which would be the card would you put in it's place?
@Link Ramirez:
-About into the roil, I'm just trying it. I stopped playing repeal because tombstalkers caused me headache, but I don't discard playing them again.
-About submerge, saves your life for 0 mana and gives you one extra turn to find an answer to that rhox war monk or tarmogoyf that is pulling you life points down.
-About Firespout, sounds very interesting, but I dislike playing muc with fetches, anyway I will try, if it resolves a bit the MU against merfolks it would be included.
-About Pithin Needle, I'll try too.
@1rakete:
I played Kegs when I started playing MUC but I found them very slow, you put them in play and then you need to charge them and pray to not to receive a stifle, very typical in my meta. Moreover, I only find it useful against vials, and decks that use vials in 1st turn usually don't mind if you activate your keg in third turn. It's just my opinion.
Can you guys post your lists?
Its been a while since I played MUC, but I would run this list, or something similar:
MUC:
// Lands
23 Island
// Creatures
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
// Spells
3 Back to Basics
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Jace, the mindsculpter
2 Ancestral Vision
3 Propaganda
3 Echoing truth
1 Cryptic command
4 Stifle
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Propaganda
SB: 4 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Powder Keg
Llawan, Cephalid Empress: Good idea, but I would only dedicate two sideboard slots to pure Merfolk hate if this is a common matchup for you, because I see no other use for Llawan.
Splashing without fetchlands: How? If you still want to support B2B you need to get that basic mountain.
Powder Keg: I also think it is slow and was playing EE instead with 3 Flooded Strand, 3 Polluted delta and a basic Plains and Swamp. If you want to splash red, you can follow a similar approach with Mountain/Forest and switch the Keg to EE.
Submerge: I prefer stealing the creatures with Sower of Temptation and Shakles. But Submerge in response to Fetchland activation is fun.
My current list:
// Lands
23 [ZEN] Island (1)
// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
4 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [M10] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
Ponder started as Ancestral Visions, but 4 FoF is enough and Ponder helps me get there.
The Vendilion Clique fun. Instant speed removal for Trygon Predator and Nimble Mongoose. And you can target yourself if necessary. And it beats for 3.
@Firespout
I think that is a really bad idea in Legacy. Does nothing vs. Gobos, because they can beat you nevertheless to death with haste next turn. Does nothing vs. Rhox War Monk, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker. May also be a dead card against elves. Can be to slow vs merfolk (cursecatcher).
I currently do not have a MUC list, because I am probably going to play EVA GREEN (unlikly) or Fish in Madrid (quite sure about that).
If I would make one, I would try to develop something like this:
// Lands
1 [BD] Swamp (1)
14 [7E] Island (2)
1 [P2] Mountain (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Creatures
1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
// Spells
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [REW] Powder Keg
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [4E] Counterspell
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [U] Meekstone
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [REW] Powder Keg
Very much inspired by this version here: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15138 . There should be videos available for this tournament and I think that he just won because of a good deck and skill. In my eyes, he had no ridiculus top decks as far as I can remember.
Logic!Quote:
Does nothing vs. Gobos, because they can beat you nevertheless to death with haste next turn.
Counterspell does nothing vs. anything, they can beat you nevertheless to death with the rest of their spells.
I played the following list at german magic 1 yesterday:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
23 [8E] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
// Spells
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [US] Back to Basics
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [VI] Impulse
2 [TE] Propaganda
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
I played against a ton of canadian threshhold. In my opinon Powder Keg is an enormously important card as it kills annoying stuff like mogoose, vial, dreadnaught, nacatl etc. Unfortunately it is sometimes a bit slow, especially against a resolved naught. It didn't need the propagandas maindeck at all, I am thinking about boarding them out for 2 Chalices and to replace the BEBs with Spell Pierce. Shackles are a bit slow sometimes, maybe one or two sowers would be good.
Also I think that FoF is the strongest drawspell available and I prefer him over AK. Imo Impule + FoF is the best drawingsuite in a version without fetchlands.
Supreme Blue wants to have a word with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1rakete
I tend to not kill Goyf/Stalker because I like to win with them.
Firespout worked for me against Merfolk, but in Landstill.
Edit: @Gunseng, how did you finish? Your deck looks pretty good. How did you like the Chalice? I think I will change Ponder to Impulse and try Chalice.
I think firespout in surpreme blue is way different then firespout in MUC.
- You can also play it to get any flying stuff.
- You usually do not need it against Lackey or something alike - you have other answers for this.
- You play Daze which might help to get it always through in Round 3.
- You have way more then 5 or 6 sources (which is 4 Scalding Tarn + 1 or 2 Mountain if you dont want to play V.Islands.)
- If the enemy has a critical mass of lords (of whatever tribe), you have way more solutions to kill one and then whipe the board.
My sentence that its bad in legacy at all if of course not right. But I really dont see it performing well in MUC.
I also played at Germanmagic 1 yesterday with a list like this:
// Lands
1 [OD] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
11 [IN] Island (2)
1 [OD] Mountain (1)
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [DK] Blood Moon
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
1 [SHM] Firespout
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
4 [DLM] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [SOA] Ethersworn Canonist
I was and still am evolving a MUC with red and white splash.
Red insteat of the black splash because I wanted to have a similar effect like wrath for MUC and red is the only colour which offers you massremovalspells while not having 2 nonbluemanacosts in the casting cost of the card.
Firespout is the card you need to beat all the aggro decks.
For sure, it doesn't kill Stalker, Goyf or Warmonk but it does kill a lot of other creatures you don't want to waste your spotremoval or sth like that.
e.g.: pridemage, hierarch, confidant, nacatl (nearly everything of goyfsligh/zoo cretures). Though it just kills tribaldecks like elves, merfolk and goblins.
The only big problem in tribal match-ups is:
a) vial
b) ringleader effects/ cardadvantage
c) hasty creatures
d) counter(merfolk)
But if you are a good player you can play around those problems. Lords are no problem beacuse you paly spotremoval on them and holocaust the board afterwards with firespout.
Another question would be: Blood Moon > than B2b????
Yes. Blood Moon is way better than B2B in most Matchups (only redbased or monocoloureddecks aren't really dominated by the moon.)
First thing is: noone exspects you to play Blood Moon in MUC. People don't even think about the fact we could play B2B.
Second factor is that you just cut your opponent from playing splashed colouredcards. (normally green). When you play a B2B when your opponent is tapped out you just cut him off his colours for some turn until he finds new lands (and fetches on basics) and lateron he just grips your B2B or shackles away. But when you play Blood Moon the opponent has no chance to get his basics by fetching them and gripping your winconditions. It's just a hard impact on the board and you yourself don't have any problems with that because you have got enough basicislands to support your shackles and your counterspells. Also Blood Moon kills nearly every land your opponent will be playing after a Blood Moon.
And if you want to know how hard the Moons impact really is:
Yesterday the Moon won (yes won!) 10 games by itself. Noone ever destroyed the Moon or was even able to do so. Thats a big number for a single card I think ;)
Maybe you ask yourself why I only play 1 Firespout in the maindeck and only play 2 Moons in the whole deck. First thing about Firespout is that i didnt thought about playing very often against Aggro or tribal at the tournament . (And I was right about that. I never played against tribal, even I really wished to do so. I didnt even played against Tempothresh and just against 1 Goyfsligh. And that was just an epic destruction leaving him no chance to win).
So why just 2 Moons?
a) it's red and you don't want to many nonbluecard in your deck.
b) 2 is the perfect number for this. You dont want to draw another one and you aren't suppossed to play BloodMoonControl.dec. It fits good into the Deck and wins a lot of games. But Sometimes it's just a dead card. Same with Firespout.
Some month ago I would play 2 Spouts but the Metagame says that Aggro is dying in westgermany these days.
Last thing to say:
I will for sure paly the new Jace instead of the old one. He's just better in everything. Protection himself, drawing cards (I will love that constant brainstorm!) or charge and win.
Just ask your questions. I wont have that much time for answering until wednesday because of learning and studying but I hope to answer your questions if you got some.
And sorry for the english. I hope it's not that bad and you could understand hat I wanted to describe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tepesh
I see your point, but I am unconvinced that Blood Moon is better than B2B. I played against Canadian Threshhold and the only thing which prevented them from burning me, was B2B. Blood Moon would be terrible in that situation. Blood Moon shutting down Fetches is great, but I am hesitant to splash any colour into MUC because the immunity to mana denial is one of the big strengths of the deck.
Thanks for the praise. My finish was 2:3 drop. Sounds terrible, but it wasn't that bad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Link Ramirez
1 Match: Canadian Treshhold
In the first game I manage to resolve B2B => oops I win. In the second and third game he buried me by boarding Spellpierce and REB, raising his countercount to 20(!). Without such extrem boarding I consider the matchup in MUC's favour, even though Mongoose is annyoing.
2. Match: Mono Green Chalice
The first game was lost thanks to bad drawing and the second thanks to the 10(!) cards he boarded in (Summoning Trap + Choke + Grip)
3. Match: Solidarity
I managed to win the first match, thanks to a massive countersuite and his rather noobish playing. In the second match Chalice for 1 and 2 got there :)
4. Match: Counterbalance
B2B got there in the first match, while in the second one multiple and recurring shackles dealt with his 3(!) goyfs.
5. Match: Random Nought/Stifle + Hexmage/Depths Combo
That's where it ended. First match he surprised me with dual duress followed up by nought+ stifle. Second game he won the force battle and killed me. Chalice would have been a house here, but I didn't draw it.
Chalice is a house against combo and easily playable for 0 and 1 in my deck, because only spell snare gets hindered by it. Unfortunately I couldn't test it against ANT. I am thinking about maindecking 2 Chalices because chalice for 1 neutralizes tons of annoying spells (Ponder, Brainstorm, Nacatl, Mongoose, Top, Needle, Stifle etc.). I have to test that though.
I urge everyone to test 1 Academy Ruins in there deck, recurring shackles and keg is simply nuts. Also try Impulse, you won't regret it!
I used to played Ruins with Bottle Gnomes in the Board to frustrate the red foes. But I didn't find it consistently enough and didn't want to play a second. I will try it again with Impulse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunseng
For now I change my maindeck like this:
-3 Clique
+2 Chalice
+1 Ruins
-4 Ponder
+4 Impulse
Why are you still playing Morphling? Do you need the untap that often? The Sphinx is the same investment, has the bigger body and constant shroud.
I mainly play Morphling due to nostalgia and because I wasn't really aware of sphinx during my testing. The manainvestment Morphling needs was annying as hell during some games. I think I will test 1 Spinx, 1 Morphling. I want to keep Morpling because he is marginally faster against combo and causes tons of fizzles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Link Ramirez
Your changes are looking good, keep me posted about chalice's performance please. Also Ruins is simply a synergy not a core strategy. There are games, where an island would be strictly better, but sometime ruins can randomly win you games. Never play more than 1 though.
Guys, what do you use against Krosan Grip in MUC ? I feel ridiculous when I cannot protect my Back to Basics, Schakles or even Propaganda sometimes... I had hope that the new Jace could filter and make sure that the opponent wouldn't draw his K. Grip but I'll have to wait that someone makes the test for me XD
"Ice Cave" 3UU enchantment
"Whenever a player casts a spell, any other player may pay that spell's mana cost. If a player does, counter the spell. (Mana cost includes color.)"
I was thinking of Ice cave in my sideboard XD since Misty Rainforest (the fetchland ) can get green mana. I think it can work because Ice Cave's ability triggers and can this way counter the Split Second !! But the opponent can use it against me if he can produce U... unless Back To Basics makes its job (lol) and that is for it. I think that B2B+Ice Cave is a strong board position but it is just a guess... and yes, lots of weakness too...
I repeat my question : any real solution (in sideboard ) against K. Grip ?
here's my list that need improve :
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Powder Keg----------- can become EE if I play the fetchlands
4 Propaganda
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse---------------can become Brainstorm with fetchlands
4 Back to Basics
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Vedalken Schackles
4 free slots-------------dunno but can be some Collective Restraint ( see below )
24 Island---------------can become Swamp and Forest ( or bayou) + U/G fetchlands ( and B/U fetchlands to counter Extirpate with Ice Cave?! )
4 Chill
4 Blue Elemental Blast
7 free slots-------------2/3 Ice Cave + Collective Restraint ?
"Collective Restraint" 3U Enchantment
Domain — Creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays Variable Colorless for each creature he or she controls that's attacking you, where X is the number of basic land types among lands you control.
Some Islands and a Bayou and the Collective Restraint is stronger than Popaganda, right ? I need to know quickly !! XD