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hehe, none of the merfolk lists ran standstill....
Seriously, it is a really good deck right now, the big thing is having a sideboard capable of killing merfolk and the new breed of control decks. That is not always a given, but it is certainly possible.
Also Breakfast? Really? That is like a free win waiting to happen.
What cards do you think answer the u/w and u/b/g lists best? I'm just running 3 spell pierce in the side to help out, but duress/thoughtseize and maybe pithing needle might be better.
Loam is useful, as well as both Clique and Thoughtseize/Duress. Actually, Duress is probably better since their creatures are non-existent or can be ignored all together. Spell Pierce is useful too, especially in conjunction with Duress; its highly useful in other matchups as well. Essentially, you can play the same cards that Deedstill do, but with a faster clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Have people been playing EE lately? It seems great against the aggro decks where Deed is 0.5-1 turn slower.
I would not run needle, the only thing you want to needle in the BUG deck is Jace, and you should have him after board yourself, plus if they actually keep in the deeds it gets really awkward really fast. I think the time might have come to board a few thoughtseizes (not duress) along with the spell pierces. It is also possible to board them in against merfolk which is nice, given that you want to board out 12 cards.
I am still a huge fan of 2 post board loams in alot of matchups (including merfolk) , so that one works.
One option is also to run extirpates as your main graveyard hate as extirpating the BUG decks lands is a plan worth considering.
I am really not a fan of EE in the deck as i feel it does too little to slowly, but i can see the point, particularly if zoo takes of.
The big thing to note is that it is likely to devolve into an atrittion fight as they have way to many answers to our threats, this makes countering visions/standstill and jace the nr1 priority. If you can keep those off the table, then hymn, stifle and waste can do their magic.
Once you get past their "threaths" you want value, i.e. Loam +hymn. Thrun could also be usefull though i would only play him as a last resort, he is so terrible in all other matchups. Any card in your sideboard that does nothing against merfolk/g/w (in the european meta) is a bit of burden, though you can afford to run a few.
Sylvan library is also an option, as is running a few spell snares main.
Vendillion clique is possible, but there is honestly not that many matchups that i want it in beyond those, so at that point i think you should just run the last troll.
The big thing to note is that it is likely to devolve into an atrittion fight as they have way to many answers to our threats, this makes countering visions/standstill and jace the nr1 priority. If you can keep those off the table, then hymn, stifle and waste can do their magic.
Once you get past their "threaths" you want value, i.e. Loam +hymn. Thrun could also be usefull though i would only play him as a last resort, he is so terrible in all other matchups. Any card in your sideboard that does nothing against merfolk/g/w (in the european meta) is a bit of burden, though you can afford to run a few.
Sylvan library is also an option, as is running a few spell snares main.
Vendillion clique is possible, but there is honestly not that many matchups that i want it in beyond those, so at that point i think you should just run the last troll.
Just wondering, had anyone tryed playing it without green splash?
All it has from green is tarmogoyf.And krosan grips in sb which can be replaced easily.
Replacing tarmogoyfs with, lets say, tomb stalkers will allow you to have a realy stable mana base with a lot of basics.
Post your list now, as i can't see you playing any list really without Tombstalker as it is.
I run
4 TS
4 Goyf
2 Vend
Even those who run Bob tend to run
4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 TS
1-2 Vend clique
Hi,
I am pretty new to TA and have access now to BUG control or the tempo list, which I am both testing online in MWS. I am spending some time reading and thinking about what to play in which meta and some specific card choices: Stifle, Ponder, Jace, Maelstrom Pulse, Thoughtseize
Current questions I have to you:
1) I saw some tempo lists and thougthseize was absent. Despite an opponents brainstrom and MM - isn't it still good enough to cut some cards (maybe -1 stifle, -1 Ponder, -1 Removal)
what was the reason not to include it?
2) which experiences do you have running 20 lands with more expensive cards in the sideboards (jace's or sower of temptation, Thrun wich only 3 green mana sources).
3) How about 1 Sylvan Library in MD? With 4 brainstorm and 3-4 Ponder - don't you think it is better to fill that slot with gas?
4) I want to play tempo, but I love Jace. What are your experiences running Jace in the classic TA maindeck? What to cut/consider?
5) what are your metagame considerations if you think about more control or tempo oriented?
Thanks a lot for your input!
Looking forward to join you in this thread.
Btw.: I think it is ok to discuss TA and BUG control (if its not deedstill) in this thread since there is a lot of hybrid and SB transformation going on as well...
I dont like to play Jace in classic version because usually you never want more than 3 lands in play, on other hand againts control decks I think that is a good sb plan having trhuns or jaces because is easy to arrive to the late game vs control decks.
I have tested different versions of this deck with confidants,22 lands+jace,fatestalker, etc.. and Im playing now the version from wcm8, its very solid although the worst enemy of this deck is merfolks.
The problem with new age Team America in the current meta as i see it (a bit theory based though so feel free to disagree if you have testing to back it) is that you are trying to fill the same role as the BUG landstill and the U/W mystic deck as a control deck. The problem is that while your combo matchup is probably better the "control mirror" should be awefull when your card advantage is the fragile confidant and theirs is standstill and visions (no stifle). I.e. you are breaking Flores' prime directive by playing a worse version of their deck and should just be playing BUGstill which is a very good deck right now. (given the current meta)
The tempo version can sidestep the cardadvantage war a bit by being much more agressive in its assault on their manabase and hand and its lower need to commit to the board early.
For a defense of the 4 ponders check my earlier posts, same goes for Jace in classic Team America.
Expensive cards in the sideboard: I love life from the loam as it effectively lets you board into extra lands + absolutely destroys certain matchups, if you check my BOM list we ran 1 main and 1 board to support a much higher curve post-board while still maintaining the ability and desire to function off 2-3 lands preboard.
Thoughtseize has sometimes been played in the lists, the problem is that you usually don't care very much about the specific composition of your opponents hand, so the targeted aspect is semi irrelevant. It used to be that napping swords was very nice, but with mental misstep that is lessened somewhat. Note though that it is a more essential element of the confidant lists that do care very much about their opponents opening hand (part of the decks weakness)
With the advent of real control decks there might be room for thoughtseize to come back as you do very much care about their standstills and to some extent Jace as well as other haymakers they might play.
If you guys have trouble with merfolk check out my sideboard from BOM, it is very potent against merfolk postboard if they don't run standstill (which seems to be the current fashion) The main thing in designing an anti merfolk plan is to have enough cards in your SB be relevant to let you board out 4 Force, 4 Misstep, 4 stifle as those are all absolutely useless
Hi,
what do you guys think about Consuming Vapors at the moment. Are you still playing this card? Against Zoo it's awesome, against Bant it's pretty good, but against every other deck (especially Merfolk) it's way too slow in my opinion. I used to play two of them but almost everytime i drew them i wished they would be just a simple removal spell like Go for the Throat.
I have loved sower in that spot, it does much of the same, except it takes their best creature rather than their worst, it also doesn't get cursecatchered which is very relevant.
Thanks Goddick. Makes a lot of sense. Where do I find your decklist and SB?
Did you check out the SCG Article too much information TP Providence?
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...rovidence.html
It analyses matchups and win% of the GP and as we know TA was pretty poor.
I think it was mostly because of the mixup TA and BUG control. It would be interesting to know how many classic TA were in there.
The statistic shows:
Worst matchup vs. top decks were Merfolk, Zoo, Affinity, Stoneblade, Bant and UW Landstill. TA win% between 30-40%.
I think it has to do with what you say Goddick, that the confident BUG control verison has a lot of problems vs. aggro decks, becuase confident is fragile and it is tough to get the control with so many threats and equpments out there. Also UW landstill is obv. a bad matchup as mentioned earlier...
My testing so far shows me that I have a much better game vs. the listed decks by playing 8 giant creatures and relying on classic disruption and tempo rather than the card advantage from confident.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...America/page62
the list is a bit outdated, but it is where i would start testing with a focus on the landstill decks. Also postboard games are quite important, Team America is capable of some pretty hardcore sideboard changes due to its flexibility in how you assign your role in a given matchup. My best comparison is against standard faeries which routinely boarded into u/b control postboard.
Been playing with the traditional Tombstalker build for a couple weeks now and have been loving it. I'm absolutely crushing that GP Providence Bant list at my LGS, and playing Force + Hymn in the same deck almost feels like I'm cheating.
Hi,
I went to my local Tourney this Sunday playing TA for the first time. I went 3-1-1, made ~2-3 bad plays and I could have won the draw in the last round but overall I was happy with the performance.
I would love to hear quality comments on my list/plays/learnings if you take the time to read! Thanks!
My list:
Wincons
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Counters
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
3x Daze
Disruption
3x Stifle
4x Hymn To Tourach
Draw
2x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
Removal
1x Go for the Throat
1x Dismember
2x Maelstrom Pulse
Lands
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
10x Fetch
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
3x Smother
1x Extirpate
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Pernicious Deed.
2x Thrun, the last Troll
2x Null Rod
2x Krosan Grip
My 2 Llawans did not arrive yet and the extractions should have been extirpates.
Round 1: High Tide 2:0 –> 1 -0
A suboptimal list with Exploration and no Force of Will. Hymn and Tombstalker get the Job done in both games.
G2: I misplayed a surgical extraction thinking there is a high tide in the graveyard. I had to take Time Spiral finding 2 high tide and cunning wish in his hand with 4 lands holding 1 counter. I decided to go the save route playing a hymn this turn. I had to shuffle away my tombstalker, but luckily drew another one.
Round 2: Merfolk 0:2 -> 1 - 1
Game 1: I misstep his aether vial and he uses wasteland. It was a very long game where he forces a tarmogyof and beats me down with Matavault down to 2 life. I brainstorm for a tombstalker and we play draw-go for ~5 rounds. My only removal I hold in hand since the beginning is Maelstrom Pulse, which really sucked in this game. I could not kill his Mutavault and when he played his Lord of Atlantis I could also just watch him beating me to death.
Game 2: I side out 3 stifle and 3 Force for 3 deed and 3 smother.
We fight over his aether vial, which I win with missetep + daze. He plays a bunch of creatures and forces my deed. My 2nd deed was too slow. In this game I did not saw a single creature which would have made the game more interesting.
Round 3: A homemade “creature sac deck” 2:1 -> 2 – 1
The guy was really bad. He did not know what Force of Will is and had no SB. After destroying him G1 I got arrogant, sided really stupid, kept a bad hand and lost game 2 to a very fast start where he could play out his creature sac technique which made him 2 monsters.
Game 3 I have 2 Gyofs and deed, but no counter. He has turn 2 Braids, Cabal Minion which would have won him the game if he wouldn’t have saced it himself after me deeding his board.
..phu, I got lucky here winning with my suboptimal hands G2 & 3. Would have been really disappointed loosing to such a random bad deck.
Round 4: Pox: 2:0 -> 3 – 1
G1: He keeps a hand with 3 wastelands. I make a mistake by stifling his fetch-land instead of waiting to use it on his wasteland (which was my intention). I think stifling his fetch is correct if I have 1-2 more lands in play, but I only had access to 2 lands. Thank god I only draw lands and play goyf, goyf, tombstalker for the win.
G2: He is stuck on land & chrome mox, wasting me 1 land but is doing nothing for 3 rounds. That makes me think he has a hand full of smallpox/removal and maybe a creature, so I wait for disruption. I pulse his chrome mox and play 2 hymn. That helped me dazing his last disruption piece and I win with a Tombstalker.
Round 5: Dredge 1:1 timeout -> 3 - 1- 1
G1: takes ages, because I disrupt him mist Misstep, Daze & wasteland. Since I cannot provide a clock, he could take his time to cabal, dread return for the win. I should have scooped when he had 2 bridges, but I had Maelstrom Pulse. It just bought some time tough…
G2: He dredges a Bridge in his first dredge, which is removed with surgical extraction. It still took me very long to kill, because I could not find a creature.
G3: I counter his first 2 plays and manage to surgical extract his Bridges, before he has a meaningful board. Since, I had no clock, the game went on and we ran out of time. It was close because he almost would have been able to dread return a monster, but he was lacking creatures due to multiple cabals. Having a goyf in play and a Force in hand I certainly would have won the game if we would have more time.
My learnings:
Maelstrom Pulse is probably not a maindeck card. I played it to have some answers to random artifacts/entchantments….most of the time instant speed creature removal is what I want.
I played Jace only once versus High Tide where he provided nice control with 2 fate seals. Was win more anyway… I never saw him again and I think in the long grinding games G1 Merfolk and the 3 dredge games he would have been very useful!
I might go up to 3 Ponder. I understand better now how important it is to have access to creatures/disruption when you need them. Don’t know what to cut yet. Obviously Jace and 1-2 lands could be cut, but…I just love Jace and he needs land drops… :(.
I like 3 stifles, since there are many decks in my meta where it is not that good/useless. If there would be a lot of mystics/hive mind running around I would probably go to 4 stifle.
SB was a poor choice. I packed Null Rod versus affinity/metalworker, but they were not there and I can probably beat these decks with my MD + deed. Any experiences from your side?
Thrun, the last Troll was there versus 2 guys I know playing a real control deck. Since I know 3 Merfolk players and the matchup is probably worse, I should have dedicated more slots to the fish. However, I don't think Thrun is completely useless. Versus Zoo or Burn I am happy to side him in along with removal versus Force of Will & Stifle. Am I wrong here?
The extirpate/surgical extractions were very useful. I know 3 reanimator decks in the meta and it obviously helps also versus other things like Loam, Bloodghast or combo in general. Since I also know some dredge players, I will probably play 1-2 Nihil spellbomb in the future!
1-2 Life from the Loam would have also been useful at times, so maybe I just stop thinking on my own playing Goddiks list. :)
hi folks,
instead of chrome mox, how about mox diamond?
- you can accelerate everything, like chrome mox
- the mana is more protected from wasteland, like chrome mox
- you have an artifact type for tarmo, like chrome mox
- imprint is under stifle, mox diamond not
- with mox diamond you'll have a land in your cemetary: tarmo loves that
- with chrome mox you'll probably lose a good card without cemetary growth.
but my question is: we could play chrome mox or mox diamond, without generate a mana instability?
I know, that could be a possible solution vs blood moon effects ...
I would like to know your opinion about that.
Regards
4 misstep 4 fow 3 daze 3 stiffle is an overkill.
i would cut stifle or dazes. just imo
For those running Consuming Vapors as a 1-of or 2-of in their sideboard, have you considered running Phyrexian Metamorph instead? Same "sorcery" speed, same mana cost (Metamorph actually comes out faster if you can afford the 2 life), and it accomplishes the same primary goal of getting rid of Emrakul, Progenitus. Although Vapors can net you life and possibly net card advantage (assuming your opponent has another creature in play for Rebound to hit), Metamorph has a bit more versatility and with SFM+Batterskull running rampant, having your own "Batterskull" may not be the worst thing in attrition based games.