[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

I know this is a serious necro. Apologies in advance. This one of the decks I still play pretty regularly, though it appears to have lost some of its power. Recently getting back into Legacy after about a year and a half hiatus I'm just looking to update my list. Would the list Goobafish is referring to look like:

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Scalding Carn (or whichever)
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Fire/Ice

1 Rushing River

I see Oliver Oey in Europe has pretty good success piloting a similar list (-3 CL, -1 RR, +2 Trygon, +2 F/I. Which is what I'm currently running as well)

You guys should give a try on this list. Getting pretty good results with it. 2nd place on a 113 people tournament, top 8 at a 79 people tournament, 'top 4 Team challenge' (doens't really count), and 5-3 (after going 5-1, my concentration was gone after long hours of play) at GP Madrid, are my last 4 tournaments.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother / Spell Pierce (Metagame, choice)
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (Depending on your metagame ofcourse. Cards can be swaped/switched easily):

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought (Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, TES, Random decks pref with no Stp/Pte/Condemn)
3 Pithing Needle (Survival, Landstill, Merfolk, Goblins)
3 Extirpate (Madness, Ichorid, Random Reanimator decks) (Most arguable slot, since Reanimator is gone)
2 Mind Harness (Zoo, Countertop, Bant Agro, Madness)
1 Submerge (Madness, Zoo, Countertop)
3 Hydroblast (Goblins, Burn, Mb TES if they play Rite)

If u have questions, ask them. I would like to answer them. Mainboard & Sideboard cards, sideboarding etc.
I wanted to make a primer for this deck, but I'm just too lazy to make one. If you want to play tempo, play/test this. It's incredible powerful in the right hands.

How well does it perform in a sort of random environment? Our tournaments are usually pretty random without a lot of *actual* Legacy decks and I'm usually hesitant to play Thresh due to things like 20land40creature.dec which is why I play Landstill most of the time and sweep.

I played the black splash here not too long ago in a small 4 round tournament and went 3-1-1 (Split with first for store credit). Seemed pretty decent, only losing to a B/g Control deck. My list was a little different (removal package of 3 Edict, 1 Demise, and 2 EE), but I enjoyed the Confidant refilling my hand after early/mid game pressure. However, I like the removal of red doubling as damage to finish off opponents.

If you don't play red for reach, I think you need to play evasive creatures. Tombstalker is the reason Team America is successful. If you're going with those colors, you should try that.

Wouldn't it make sense to combine both of the threshold threads into one? Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by The Big Ragu

Wouldn't it make sense to combine both of the threshold threads into one? Just a thought.

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Yeah, and add CB/Top, CAB Jace and Landstill. I mean, they all play Force and Brainstorm...

@ Keys:

You clearly dont know how Dark Confidant and (real) removal works. Dark Confidant is probably the only reason why this deck is infact broken. It makes your draw-games, much better. It even makes your play-games, much better. A turn 1 Stifle, Turn 2 Dark Confidant will offer you a 70/80% chance to win. For real.
The problem with burn is, is when a creature resolves from your opponent. The only way you can actually remove the creature is by attacking with your Goyf. Do you agree? I mean, all creatures are bigger than Nimble Mongoose these days, so attacking with Nimble Mongoose and Lightning Bolt their Goyf or anything (after) is an horrible idea. You have no clock, you have removed your burn card from your hand. An horrible idea. But it's the only way, with Red Tempo Threshold.
With (real) removal, all your creatures become better, especially Nimble Mongoose. You now have removal for Knight of the Reliquary's, Tarmogoyf's, Terravore's, even Dreadnought's (if they don't rush, which they don't). With (real) removal, you keep control over the game. Whereas with red, u try to attack for 6x. Then hopefully put them in burn reach, and then try to draw burn before you're dead. It's not good enough anymore. You can't attack with Nimble Mongoose or anything else for 6 turns anymore without losing the control.

Team America is horibble, in my opinion. It doesnt play Confidant (right?), Nimble Mongoose, plays more land, doens't play spell snare.Seems horrible for an tempo list, tbh.

@ Anarky87

Well I haven't tested against 20 Land, 40 creature's deck. I think the matchup is way more better than with red, since you have removal, Dark Confidant and a good sideboard plan: Dreadnought. You also have Mind harness to steal their creature's and submerge to bounce one to deal the final damage. I think the matchup is infact pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

You guys should give a try on this list. Getting pretty good results with it. 2nd place on a 113 people tournament, top 8 at a 79 people tournament, 'top 4 Team challenge' (doens't really count), and 5-3 (after going 5-1, my concentration was gone after long hours of play) at GP Madrid, are my last 4 tournaments.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother / Spell Pierce (Metagame, choice)
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (Depending on your metagame ofcourse. Cards can be swaped/switched easily):

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought (Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, TES, Random decks pref with no Stp/Pte/Condemn)
3 Pithing Needle (Survival, Landstill, Merfolk, Goblins)
3 Extirpate (Madness, Ichorid, Random Reanimator decks) (Most arguable slot, since Reanimator is gone)
2 Mind Harness (Zoo, Countertop, Bant Agro, Madness)
1 Submerge (Madness, Zoo, Countertop)
3 Hydroblast (Goblins, Burn, Mb TES if they play Rite)

If u have questions, ask them. I would like to answer them. Mainboard & Sideboard cards, sideboarding etc.
I wanted to make a primer for this deck, but I'm just too lazy to make one. If you want to play tempo, play/test this. It's incredible powerful in the right hands.

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I did 6:1 with my NQG/b twice last month at the monthly Iserlohn (76 participations) and the monthly Dülmen (53 participations) and so finally managed to get back into the game with two 2nd places since I've quit playing in 2008.

Our Maindecks are very similar.


Main Deck:
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Diabolic Edict (No/Pro + Emrakul + Mongoose)
1 Ghastly Demise (to be able to play at least 4 cc1 removal post board)
2 Smother
2 Engineered Explosives (Zoo Critters, Vial, CB, Chalice/LED/Moxen/Token, MoR....this card's so impressive!)

6 Fetchlands (it's fine with only 1 demise)
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

I think the differences are mediocre.
While my creature removal is resistant to graveyard hate, yours's improving the Goblin and Zoo matchup quite a lot and the mana curve gets a bit better (-2). Don't you have to board them out very often?

I played a similar board in 2008 with 3 dreadnoughts and 3 mind harness, but since most people have boarded enchantment/artifact hate for no reason, I cutted them.

The only decks where u board Dreadnought's don't have artifact or enchantment hate, or do not expect a turn 2/3 (depending on what deck you're playing) Dreadnought. I won dozen games against Merfolk and Goblins by just resolving Dreadnought and protecting it. It's really a dozen, already. Gosh.

I don't like EE's in the list, because they're bad when u both got a goyf. Or where u have a Nimble Mongoose and your opponent has a wild nacatl. I can think of many more examples of bad situations, ofcourse there might be pretty good examples to be named aswell. I just don't like dead cards in my hand. Or atleast, I want to lower the amount of dead cards in my hand as much as possible.

Congratz with the results.

I also believe that everyone should play 8 fetch, 6 duals. It's just so much better. I think I'm playing that configuration for a long time now, a long long time and have never faced any problems. I mean, Brainstorm + Fetch at turn 2 is probably one of the sickest plays in legacy. I'd like to do that as much as I can.
Disfigure? Wow. Sounds like a really solid card against Merfolk/Goblins. Might even make my sideboard, although countering Ringleaders/Matron's with Hydroblast is also pretty cool. What are your thoughts about the card?

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The only decks where u board Dreadnought's don't have artifact or enchantment hate, or do not expect a turn 2/3 (depending on what deck you're playing) Dreadnought. I won dozen games against Merfolk and Goblins by just resolving Dreadnought and protecting it. It's really a dozen, already. Gosh.

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I don't think that there's a need for a turn 2/3 Dreadnought against Goblins/Merfolk.

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I don't like EE's in the list, because they're bad when u both got a goyf. Or where u have a Nimble Mongoose and your opponent has a wild nacatl. I can think of many more examples of bad situations, ofcourse there might be pretty good examples to be named aswell. I just don't like dead cards in my hand. Or atleast, I want to lower the amount of dead cards in my hand as much as possible.

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Well, the same is true for Spell Pierce ;-)
But actually I'm thinking of playing your version next Iserlohn. I think it's very hard to get which one's better.

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Disfigure? Wow. Sounds like a really solid card against Merfolk/Goblins. Might even make my sideboard, although countering Ringleaders/Matron's with Hydroblast is also pretty cool. What are your thoughts about the card?

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You should try -Dreadnoughts, + Disfigure in your board! That fixes the problem with those postboard demises (if there is any problem) and you don't need to fight a Dreadnought through 3 turns of possible swords, submerges, warren weirding,stingscourger etc.

Merfolk gets a really tough matchup fighting their critters through 7 removal

I'm sure I will not remove the Dreadnoughts from my Sideboard. It's one of the reason why I've been doing good at tournaments, lately.
I've already tried more removal against tribal decks, it just doesnt work. U need removal and a fast clock. Dreadnought sure does create a fast clock, and all your cheap counters and good removal keep critters already from the table.
U should test the Dreadnought, they're absolutely fantastic. The reason it's so fantastic: you'll loose if you'll get in lategame against these decks. Goblins has tremendous cards to topdeck, like half of their deck is good to topdeck in lategame. Same goes for Merfolk, they just draw lord, lord, lord, lord. Dreadnought allows u to avoid this from happening.

About spell pierce. The card is awesome. Still in doubt whether to play 2 or 3. They counter cards that are absolutely terrifying:
Sensei's Divining Top
Vial
Standstill
Planeswalker
Can counter cantrips, if u have a lot of pressure on them
Show and Tell / Natural Order
Etc.

You all know the list.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

@ Keys:

You clearly dont know how Dark Confidant and (real) removal works. Dark Confidant is probably the only reason why this deck is infact broken. It makes your draw-games, much better. It even makes your play-games, much better. A turn 1 Stifle, Turn 2 Dark Confidant will offer you a 70/80% chance to win. For real.
The problem with burn is, is when a creature resolves from your opponent. The only way you can actually remove the creature is by attacking with your Goyf. Do you agree? I mean, all creatures are bigger than Nimble Mongoose these days, so attacking with Nimble Mongoose and Lightning Bolt their Goyf or anything (after) is an horrible idea. You have no clock, you have removed your burn card from your hand. An horrible idea. But it's the only way, with Red Tempo Threshold.
With (real) removal, all your creatures become better, especially Nimble Mongoose. You now have removal for Knight of the Reliquary's, Tarmogoyf's, Terravore's, even Dreadnought's (if they don't rush, which they don't). With (real) removal, you keep control over the game. Whereas with red, u try to attack for 6x. Then hopefully put them in burn reach, and then try to draw burn before you're dead. It's not good enough anymore. You can't attack with Nimble Mongoose or anything else for 6 turns anymore without losing the control.

Team America is horibble, in my opinion. It doesnt play Confidant (right?), Nimble Mongoose, plays more land, doens't play spell snare.Seems horrible for an tempo list, tbh.

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Confidant isn't tempo. All your creatures get outclassed or chumped. Your (real) removal is blanked by a Relic of Progenitus. That said, your deck is clearly broken and Team America is trash. I know nothing about magic and I'm a bad person.

I think I'll run with the black splash at the next tournament. I just like the idea of Dark Confidant too much to back to red. I don't know why I have that fear of critter decks when I've had nothing but good results whenever I played Thresh. Probably an over exaggeration.

I didn't like Dreadnought from my first look. But the more I think about it, the more I do like the idea of just a late (or early for that matter) game huge creature that is an answer-me-now-or-lose kind of card. I also think adding spell pierce (I went for 3, running the list Cenarius posted) will help against the decks I had trouble with.

Also I never really thought TA was that great of a deck. I played UGr CounterTop at GP Chicago and was 2-0 both times I played against it. Seemed like it just did nothing for a long time and then played a Tombstalker and hoped you didn't answer it (maybe both opponents just both had terrible hands/mulligans, but I don't really think so). Unless something has been printed that makes it sick.

I like splashing black for confidant and some really solid removal e.g. ghastly demise. Confidant is the best 2 drop in legacy. He beats tarmogoyf at the 2 drop slot; like someone just mentioned, going first turn stifle second turn confidant is GG's in most cases because he nets you lots of CA to negate FoW's card disadvantage and to enable you to draw a lot more business. The red splash in canadian thresh is okayish but it often doesn't get there against big dudes like knight of the reliquary, terravore, tarmogoyf, hell fire doesn't even kill wild nacatl when it is fully pumped and trading a bolt for a nacatl after it has dealt damage is a bad move.

I like dreadnought in the side for some MUs where they can't deal with it (12/12 trampling I BEAT EVERY CREATURE IN COMBAT is awesome sauce when they can't deal with it). It further improves the combo MU not that that MU was very bad in the first place it was quite good in fact but against merfolk what will they do if the 12/12 sticks. Absolutely nothing can save them save getting a lot of board presence with lords and such which if we allowed to happen means we are likely losing anyways unless we have a firespout in hand.

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I like dreadnought in the side for some MUs where they can't deal with it (12/12 trampling I BEAT EVERY CREATURE IN COMBAT is awesome sauce when they can't deal with it). It further improves the combo MU not that that MU was very bad in the first place it was quite good in fact but against merfolk what will they do if the 12/12 sticks.

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You just have to deckcheck some current Merfolk lists and you'll see the following:
Submerge, Swords to Plowshares, Echoing Truth, Threads of Disloyalty

Playing Canadian my most loses were due to having a) not enough creatures. Or b) I lost to opposing Relics and c) lost to bigger creatures, because of not having evasion...
Because of that i adopted the Dead//Gone-plan for c) and added 2 Vendilions for c) and b). And chose to play Pithing Needles in my sideboard.
My list looks like that right now.

Mainboard:
2 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dead / Gone
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland

# 60

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
4 Submerge

# 15

This might be a possible solution to some of the problems Canadian Thresh has. I like Goobas idea (adding Chain Lightnings to have better removal/extend your burn-range - only problem i see is if you play three of them you might have not enough pitch-cards for Force of WIll...), too, but I like to rather have a solution for Knight of the Reliquary or other bigger-than-mine-creatures.

What do you think about these changes? Are ten creatures too much? Is Dead//Gone and Fire//Ice split 2/2 a good idea?
I will test and show you results.
Is it a bad idea to cut Spell Pierce in SB?

Ok, interesting posts.

@ keys, I'll just ignore you. Your statements speak for themselves.

@ Anarky, I hope you'll get a good result. I hope u can do something with my sideboard plans.

@ Dark Ritual, thanks. I appreciate it.

@ Oddball, Submerge can be dealt with by Dazing your tropical. The'll never reach 5 mana in time. Echoing Truth, are u serious? You think they board Echoing Truth at game 2? They won't. Maybe for game 3, but if there's one thing this deck is good at, it's winning counterwars. If you suspect Echoing Truth/Threads of Disloyality, Spell Pierce will be your friend. Keep it in, and you'll have a good time. About Swords to Plowshares, the merfolk lists are either Mono Blue or with a black splash, so I'm not afraid of Swords to Plowshares. If they do play white, just keep Spell Pierce in the mainboard and board other stuff out.
Just try it out first, before telling me that some cards will be good against Dreadnought. I won about 7 matches against Merfolk and Goblins in the last 4 tournaments, never drawed and never lost. I think it says something.

@ Miko

I think my decklist deals with the problems of Tempo Threshold.

A) Not having enough creatures: Dark Confidant is a creature and draws creatures. It's absolutely awesome.
B) Lost due to Relic's, my decklist can get more cards in my graveyard + Dark Confidant itself is not harmed by relic. Pithing Needle is a great card to deal with the problems aswell and some matchups get Dreadnought aswell.
C) Lost due to bigger creatures, my list provides removal. Red just gives burn. I think that says enough.

You really should try my list. I think you'll like it.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

@ keys, I'll just ignore you. Your statements speak for themselves.

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He is in fact correct that Dark Confidant is not a card that gives you significant tempo. That doesn't make it a bad card, but does make it a card that doesn't take advantage of the tempo you're creating with your other cards.

Why are you playing Ghastly Demise over Vendetta. I think that with your current list, graveyard removal not only hurts your main beaters, but also your removal spells. And that's a rather serious issue. If an opponent can blank 12 of your cards (from which 8 are your main kill conditions) then you're making yourself fragile against interactions.

Deck looks interesting, I would agree that it could be an improvement from UGr even though now you're losing out on the reach that burn offered to accompany your main win conditions.

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Playing Canadian my most loses were due to having a) not enough creatures. Or b) I lost to opposing Relics and c) lost to bigger creatures, because of not having evasion...

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Couldn't agree more. I quitted playing Canadian Thresh for the same reasons.
Nowadays there are too many game-breaking spells that need to be countered, and the stifle-waste plan isn't always enough to stop them from playing those big spells.

So I decided to move to thresh ugb and yesterday I put up a solid 4-0 in matches and 8-0 in games at a local shop.

I played against affinity (old build), zoo, faeries ugr and thopter foundry.

This is the list I played:

4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant

4 force of will
4 daze
4 spell snare
4 stifle

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 ghastly demise
2 smother

6 fetches
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 wasteland


Sideboard:

3 phyrexyan dreadnought
3 disfigure
2 extirpate
1 tormod's crypt
2 spell pierce
2 krosan grip
2 pithing needle


I'll probably cut a ghastly demise for a smother, due to demise requiring more fetches, and I really don't want to low my dual lands count, often needing the 4th copy.

Dreadnoughts were amazing all-day long against aggro decks, I 'm really satisfied for having given them a try.

Thoughts?

@ Spartan

Great result. Last sunday (the undertaker) also got a top 8 place with exactly the same list. He was really content about the list aswell, changing only some minor sideboard cards due to him losing against Enchantress in the Top 8.

Your list shows that your metagame is packed with creatures, so I think your maindeck changes are (obviously) good. Did you board the Disfigure's? Or did you test with them?
About Ghastly Demise #4, Smother #3. Be careful in the Merfolk matchup. They're a lot harder to cast.
About the duals and fetches, when and why did you need the 4th copy of a dual? Just explain, because I never encounted this.

@ Nessaja

Ghastly Demise vs. Vendetta:

1. Dark Confidant and his lifeloss;
2. Vendetta seems horrible when you're racing;
3. There are really big creatures in the format, I just dont want to lose 12 life to destroy a Terravore.

Those reasons alone are good enough for me to play Ghastly Demise.

About Dark Confidant,

Are you sure Dark Confidant isn't a tempo card? Even if it isn't, Dark Confidant is awesome with tempo.
Why? It's probably thé card that benefits the most from tempo.
Dark Confidant also provides card advantage, which means more options per turn. More options per turn, means indirect tempo. Isn't it?