[Deck] The Gate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hot Soup

If you drop bitterblossom, you should drop Innocent Blood, Cabal Therapy, Jitte. All the sudden the deck is different. If you still run any of those cards without Bitterblossom. your a fool.

---

LMAO. Jitte doesn't need Bitterblossom to be good, or worth playing. Jitte is fantastic with any threat, not just Bitterblossom.

Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy on the otherhand indeed are subpar cards that were worth playing because they are needed to be able to get around Persecutor's drawback.

Innocent Blood was subpar because it's inferior to Geth's Verdict the second you get a creature onto the board (basically anytime beyond the first turn or two).

Cabal Therapy is subpar because it whiffs more often than not the first time, so unless you have something to sacrifice to it for the second go, it's not ideal, and not needed when you have much better options like Duress, Inquisition, Thoughtseize and even Mental Misstep can serve a similar role.

The deck only played those cards because Persecutor was the best black finisher at 4 mana or less, before NPH. NPH changed that, so we no longer need to build the deck around Percy.

I do agree with you that Bitterblossom is there because it works well with Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy. Otherwise, Bitterblossom really isn't a very good card. There is a reason why no other black deck opts to run it, it's just a very weak threat that doesn't put your opponent on any real clock what so ever.

The deck can either cling to a time when the best finisher it had was Persecutor, and continue to build around that card, or it can acknowledge that it can make changes now that Obliterator is out as is superior to persecutor (it completely prevents your opponents ground creatures from attacking)

Bitterblossom makes Jitte better, however, because it churns out a continuous stream of bodies which each need to be dealt with. Likewise, Jitte makes Bitterblossom better. Each card is magnitudes stronger when used in conjunction with each other.

Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy are cards which have a slightly lower power level than other options, such as Edict or Inquisition. However, they have such strong synergy with the deck, playing well with Bitterblossom and Percy, that within the context of this deck, they are stronger than other options.

Furthermore, if you're a competent player, Cabal Therapy is an excellent card. If you must play it blind, name the card you wish to see least; then, if you whiff, at least the path ahead is clear. And furthermore, you underestimate how much of your opponent's hand you actually see, when you take into account discard, tribal decks (Ringleader+Matron, Silvergill Adept), opposing Dark Confidants and such. In fact, Cabal Therapy as a discard spell is one of the few that get better the longer the game lasts.

Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there are no other good black decks in Legacy. Suicide is dead, MBC is virtually non-existent except as an incredibly rogue, metagamed deck, and there isn't a decent StaxXx variant for black. Pox can be decent, but it can fall flat on its face more so than The Gate.

You're an idiot for acting like Obliterator comes without a drawback. His drawback is that he forces you to abandon Wasteland, one of the most asymmetrical effects available if you're mono-colored. His drawback is that Dark Ritual, a subpar card for this deck, becomes a necessity. His drawback is that Tombstalkers and Coralhelm Commanders jump right over him. He's a 4 turn clock rather than a 3 turn clock more often than not. He is weaker within the confines of this deck than Abyssal Persecutor.

On a final note, why is it that 4 Wastelands are not enough? Why must it be accompanied by Sinkholes and Stifles and Crucibles and Loams? You'll notice every tribal deck short of combo elves runs 4 copies of Wasteland as their only land-destruction. So why are Wastelands poor in this deck?

I agree with bakofried with this one...PO isn't really a superior substitute to APs:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Otherwise, Bitterblossom really isn't a very good card. There is a reason why no other black deck opts to run it, it's just a very weak threat that doesn't put your opponent on any real clock what so ever.

---

I've tested the original build, Slypher's build and my "new" build over on Cockatrice, and I can say that Bitterblossom is GREAT in the original build and sorely missed in the other ones. What you are doing is creating a 1/1 dude each turn. It doesn't look like much, but a) It frees up your mana to play spells while 1/1's are constantly attacking your opponent or playing defense b) a resolved Bitterblossom against a control deck puts them on a clock.

When you say that "no other black deck opts to run it", there aren't really that many mono-black decks in Legacy. There's suicide black, where BB doesn't fit in their plan of killing you asap, and Pox, which can run it (but it's a very customizable deck).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakofried

On a final note, why is it that 4 Wastelands are not enough? Why must it be accompanied by Sinkholes and Stifles and Crucibles and Loams? You'll notice every tribal deck short of combo elves runs 4 copies of Wasteland as their only land-destruction. So why are Wastelands poor in this deck?

---

There are two other tribal decks in legazy, aside from crazy fringe decks. Goblins and Merfolk. Both work off of Aether Vial, which means they dont even need lands in play, hence why Merfolk Runs Daze. Goblins also run Rishadan Port. In either case, both decks work to play cheap tribal dudes for free off vial early while attacking your mana-base.

Yes, I was in fact alluding to Goblins and Merfolk. Merfolk stopped playing Stifle a long time ago, and modern Goblins lists are cutting Rishadan Port. Furthermore, the statement "they don't even need lands in play" is entirely untrue. If you've ever played Goblins, you'd know it's a very mana-intensive deck. And while Merfolk *needs* less lands in play it can't ignore them entirely. You still need mana to activate Mutavault, leave up Misstep or Pierce mana, and level up CCommander. And Merfolk obviously expects to be casting a good bit of its creature cards, otherwise Merrow Reejerey lose a ton of value. On top of all this, Wasteland still lets you cheat on tempo as the curve of this deck is very low, beyond taking care of problematic lands such as Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Academy Ruins, Grove of the Burnwillows, and Volrath's Stronghold. It also helps supplement our discard strategy when fighting against various combo decks.

Just to make a point, all of the discard we run (especially if you run therapy along with duress) that once you see what is in their hand wasteland can cut them off of whatever color they need. Although more decks are running more stable manabases nowadays, that once in awhile where you completely shut off a color for a turn or two is game winning

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakofried

Yes, I was in fact alluding to Goblins and Merfolk. Merfolk stopped playing Stifle a long time ago, and modern Goblins lists are cutting Rishadan Port. Furthermore, the statement "they don't even need lands in play" is entirely untrue. If you've ever played Goblins, you'd know it's a very mana-intensive deck. And while Merfolk *needs* less lands in play it can't ignore them entirely. You still need mana to activate Mutavault, leave up Misstep or Pierce mana, and level up CCommander. And Merfolk obviously expects to be casting a good bit of its creature cards, otherwise Merrow Reejerey lose a ton of value. On top of all this, Wasteland still lets you cheat on tempo as the curve of this deck is very low, beyond taking care of problematic lands such as Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Academy Ruins, Grove of the Burnwillows, and Volrath's Stronghold. It also helps supplement our discard strategy when fighting against various combo decks.

---

Thats just the thing. Both Goblins and Merfolk have very low curves. While they do enjoy lands, it isn't neccisary for either Strategy. I've seen Merfolk win with 1-2 lands in play. It happens all the time. Our curve is much larger. We run 21 lands, with only Bob as draw, and assuming he dyes, you need to hit your 4th land drop without any support. We curve out at 4, they curve out at 1-2. There is a massive differance.

What the fuck are you talking about? Goblins hits the top of its curve at 5 and is very mana-intensive; Merfolk always hits its curve at 3, and several builds are incorporating Sower of Temptation, which further ticks the curve up. Also, you're flat-out ignoring CCommander, Mutavault activations, and not to mention all those games where they don't have Aether Vial. Please, at least make a committed effort to understand the decks you're talking about.

Has anyone played with Nevinyrral's Disk in the sb with any success recently? I think I may run 2/3 since they kill aggro and affinity pretty well. It is fairly slow, but damn powerful

Double post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakofried

What the fuck are you talking about? Goblins hits the top of its curve at 5 and is very mana-intensive; Merfolk always hits its curve at 3, and several builds are incorporating Sower of Temptation, which further ticks the curve up. Also, you're flat-out ignoring CCommander, Mutavault activations, and not to mention all those games where they don't have Aether Vial. Please, at least make a committed effort to understand the decks you're talking about.

---

Goblins is never planning to cast it's 5 drop. It's there because of Lackey. If the game goes long, maybe it will cast it, but it's not the cards purpose. Goblins is too busy throwing down small dudes and porting and wasting your land to think about paying 5 mana for one card, even if it does have that much value. Theres a reason that everyone is proclaiming Goblins dead with Mental Misstep, and it's because Goblin Lackey or Aether Vial turn 1 was cluth for this deck. You seem to be forgetting just how dependant these decks are upon Vial. I bet you folk hardcast Sower maybe 1/5 of the time, the rest they just tick up a vial to 4 later in the game, steal your creature and win. Commander does not need to have a bunch of mana dumped into it in one go, you can do it here and there, and he doesn't take much at all to hit his next level. Mutavault requires 1 to use. Merfolk live comfortably on 2-3 mana.

Of course these decks play out different if they don't drop a Vial turn one, that's to be expected. The deck is completely different when it does not. Theres a reason these decks are so dependant upon it. If Mr.Merfolk player doesn't hit Vial turn 1, you think he's going to agreesivly cast Daze and use wastelands? No, of course not. But if he has a Vial out, ticking away, he can wasteland all he wants, lose mutavault to your wastelands and daze away, and feel comfortable.

Hey guys, I've been testing this deck recently. For reference, here was my list:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Go for the Throat
3 Mental Misstep
4 Dark Ritual

3 Wasteland
20 Swamp

Cards I was losing to: Jace, Vedalken Shackles, Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar

As far as the curve and the power level of the deck, everything was working perfectly. If opponents didn't have an answer to one of my threats (or even if they had one but not more than one thanks to Mental Misstep), I generally won. As much as I love Nantuko Shade, especially in the combo matchup where he's just the best clock ever, I think he needs to be replaced with Phyrexian Revoker.

I know, I know. It's very trendy and all to put Revoker and Misstep into legacy decks. But I think it's correct here. In addition to giving you answers for the problem cards I listed above, you can shut off Top, Knight of the Reliquary...you know the deal...it's utility. And it's a beater that can carry a Jitte. And it's maindeck hate against Dredge and ANT and Painter and other decks.

So I would do a 3-for-3 swap of Phyrexian Revoker for Nantuko Shade, but otherwise I'd keep the build :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derm

Hey guys, I've been testing this deck recently. For reference, here was my list:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Go for the Throat
3 Mental Misstep
4 Dark Ritual

3 Wasteland
20 Swamp

Cards I was losing to: Jace, Vedalken Shackles, Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar

As far as the curve and the power level of the deck, everything was working perfectly. If opponents didn't have an answer to one of my threats (or even if they had one but not more than one thanks to Mental Misstep), I generally won. As much as I love Nantuko Shade, especially in the combo matchup where he's just the best clock ever, I think he needs to be replaced with Phyrexian Revoker.

I know, I know. It's very trendy and all to put Revoker and Misstep into legacy decks. But I think it's correct here. In addition to giving you answers for the problem cards I listed above, you can shut off Top, Knight of the Reliquary...you know the deal...it's utility. And it's a beater that can carry a Jitte. And it's maindeck hate against Dredge and ANT and Painter and other decks.

So I would do a 3-for-3 swap of Phyrexian Revoker for Nantuko Shade, but otherwise I'd keep the build :)

---

23 land and dark ritual seems excessive. If you are losing to jace, why not run duress? With the aggro build you have here dropping the 3 wasteland for 3 duress seems like a good trade. Also, you have no turn 1 removal aside from ritual+go for the throat.

Here is a list we have started testing with, so far it seems pretty strong:

20 swamp
1 volrath's stronghold

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Oblitorator
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Geth's Verdict
2 Bitterblossem
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Doom Blade
1 Umezawa's Jitte

At the moment we are toying around with the Shades, since they seem like the weakest spot. A friend of mine is considering Nether Void as a way to lock up the game, I'm not too sure about it, but it seems to work for him so far.

Any ideas?

I want to make Nether Void work so bad in Legacy. The best results I've had so far though are in a Vial-Deadguy shell, and even then it's pretty conditional. Unless you run a lot of land or have some way to sneak things in under the Void, it's a dead draw, or at worst screws you over.

I was planning to playtest this deck:

Creatures (16)

4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

Spells (22)

1 Diabolic Edict
4 Go for the Throat

2 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Mental Misstep

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Bitterblossom

Land (22)

4 Wasteland
18 Swamp

Some help to optimize this build is welcome. For instance; i really have a hard time with Jace and the lot. Also, i am really thinking to play Thoughseize, except i think it will prove itself too much with MM. And how about Diabolic Edict? Is there something else better? Before someone takes a shot at my choice in favour of Wasteland; it helped me a lot against irritating lands and even slow combo down... Yes it keeps me of going fast, so i was thinking about this

-2 Bitterblossom
-2 Jitte
+4 Dark Ritual

But then again: i don't really want to go fast... Maybe i have to though...

Anyway, some suggestions for a sb are welcome as well. I was thinking about something like this:

1 Duress
2 Nevinnyral's Disk
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Extirpate (or maybe the new one?)
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Null Rod
3 Dystopia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hot Soup

Goblins is never planning to cast it's 5 drop. It's there because of Lackey. If the game goes long, maybe it will cast it, but it's not the cards purpose. Goblins is too busy throwing down small dudes and porting and wasting your land to think about paying 5 mana for one card, even if it does have that much value. Theres a reason that everyone is proclaiming Goblins dead with Mental Misstep, and it's because Goblin Lackey or Aether Vial turn 1 was cluth for this deck. You seem to be forgetting just how dependant these decks are upon Vial. I bet you folk hardcast Sower maybe 1/5 of the time, the rest they just tick up a vial to 4 later in the game, steal your creature and win. Commander does not need to have a bunch of mana dumped into it in one go, you can do it here and there, and he doesn't take much at all to hit his next level. Mutavault requires 1 to use. Merfolk live comfortably on 2-3 mana.

Of course these decks play out different if they don't drop a Vial turn one, that's to be expected. The deck is completely different when it does not. Theres a reason these decks are so dependant upon it. If Mr.Merfolk player doesn't hit Vial turn 1, you think he's going to agreesivly cast Daze and use wastelands? No, of course not. But if he has a Vial out, ticking away, he can wasteland all he wants, lose mutavault to your wastelands and daze away, and feel comfortable.

---

Let us examine what you are saying here. First off you don't add cards that you don't plan to play and you defiantly don't add a card if 4 1 drops that will never see play against a deck with any creature removal is your only option of getting it in. Siege-Gang Commander puts 4 goblins into play in one move, how does that go against the Goblin's strategy of swarming with creatures? I really don't see Aether Vial's counter going above 3. There is no creature more important for a Merfolk player to get into play than their lords and as far as I'm aware they do not run any 4 cmc Lords. We are talking here like these two decks don't run 20+ lands. Just the math alone tells us that in a game lasting more than 7 turns that they will see at least 5 of these lands.

I don't mean to step on anybody's toes in my first post but here goes anyways. First is why are people running splits of duress and Inquisition of Kozilek? If creature based decks are that much of a problem in your meta then pay the two life and get the extra utility from thoughtseize. Inquisition of Kozilek will hit the cheap creatures but it won't hit the business spells that duress will. By running the split you lower your chances of seeing either when you need to. Just as there are decks i don't want to see duress in there are decks where i don't want to see Inquisition of Kozilek. By running the split and lowering the counts of either it only dilutes the consistency of the deck.

On to the second thing, mental misstep. I can barely wrap my head around running this card in our deck at all let alone as a 3 of. We talk about how great this card is against aether vial and goblin lackey, but this is a card that has to be in our hand when the opposing card is dropped otherwise it does nothing to it. By running 4 in a 60 card deck we have a 40% chance of seeing it in our opening hand but at 3 we don't even have that. This isn't a card that we can just hold in our hand mid to late game, nearly every business spell is in the 2-5 mana range so this card is pretty dead if we don't use it. I even hate using this card against a deck full of 1 drops, that deck being zoo. Who runs more 1 drops effectively than zoo? But without blue mana of our own we have to pay 2 life for every use. that life loss combined with bitterblossom and Dark confidant pretty much just give the match up away. Free spells are great but the life loss adds up, and we have to lose life to use the card without blue mana. Counters are great but only when they are backed up but other counters. Worst comes to worse blue can pitch it to force of will. What can we really do with it?

How can you complain about the life loss of Mental Misstep on one hand while at the same time advocating the use of Thoughtseize over Inquisition?

Mental Misstep is a huge tempo boost.

With Thoughtseize, you spend 1 mana to get rid of their StP or Path.

With Mental Misstep, you make THEM spend 1 mana to get rid of their StP or Path. In that scenario Mental Misstep is a full 2 mana cheaper than Thoughtseize, which is what makes it awesome.

We are not playing a combo deck, as such there is no one particular card we play that we absolutely have to resolve or protect. All of the cards we play are strong, and it doesn't cost us the game if one or two of them get countered. As such, it's not nearly as important to pick off your opponent's FoW, which is inherent card disadvantage. I usually opt to take out my opponents Brainstorm or StP or High Tide, rather than a card like FoW that will cost them two cards to get rid of one of your threats. That's why I prefer Inquisition and MM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clark Kant

How can you complain about the life loss of Mental Misstep on one hand while at the same time advocating the use of Thoughtseize over Inquisition?

Mental Misstep is a huge tempo boost.

With Thoughtseize, you spend 1 mana to get rid of their StP or Path.

With Mental Misstep, you make THEM spend 1 mana to get rid of their StP or Path. In that scenario Mental Misstep is a full 2 mana cheaper than Thoughtseize, which is what makes it awesome.

We are not playing a combo deck, as such there is no one particular card we play that we absolutely have to resolve or protect. All of the cards we play are strong, and it doesn't cost us the game if one or two of them get countered. As such, it's not nearly as important to pick off your opponent's FoW, which is inherent card disadvantage. I usually opt to take out my opponents Brainstorm or StP or High Tide, rather than a card like FoW that will cost them two cards to get rid of one of your threats. That's why I prefer Inquisition and MM.

---

of course you can compare the two based on the life loss. MM is a very conditional reactive spell, whereas thoughtseize is proactive and takes out the most important threat the opposing player has.

playing a suicide deck, you need to be on your heels and play proactive and should not be responding to the opposing player's threats. thats why i see why he is not up for MM than of thoughtseize