[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Nihil- looks like the only real difference between our lists now is that you're running a zealot main, and have one less pact and one less wish. And now you think you want to add another tutor. Dare I say we are starting to agree on the MD? haha

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Ofcourse we are. Now I'm playing the Wish list and there aren't many more options to tweak it ^^
Before I was just commenting on how my list seemed stronger to me. I must say that I'm merely playing the Wish list because I wanted a change. I really haven't had time to test which list is faster or more consistent, but I wanted to change.

I must say and this is important. That this is the 3rd tournament I take the wish list to, and only the first one I top 8 with, compared to my Cloudstone Curio + Grapeshot list, with which I top8 3 tournaments in a row.

I feel like the deck to be more compact like this, but I seemed to be able to do many more tricks, and had to make more decision, more thought, with my old list.

I should need more time to actually test and compare results, but I'm really happy with how elves are working in general. Next thing to test would be VV + Intuition / Buried Alive

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Originally Posted by catmint

Congratulations to your good result! The Problem with Yixlid jailer is that you need to play black and that it does not help vs. Reanimator.

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As I said, I recommend Yixlid Jailer as the best option against Dredge, but not anything else, and specially not against Reanimate. That's why I said that Faerie Macabre would be a better Wish target in general, but your question was: What would you guys side in against Dredge?

On the other topics: I use Burrenton and Escort, and they are Awesome! Revoker would be good but really not necessary, just as Karakas, Kataki the same, we beat Affinity, and instead of Ethersworn, I think that Gaddock Teeg would be better.

I used to run 2x Orim's chant against combo and control, and if you feel like you have enough room in the side, I really do recommend them. Great cards! Siding 1 in against control is always nice.

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

On the other topics: I use Burrenton and Escort, and they are Awesome! Revoker would be good but really not necessary, just as Karakas, Kataki the same, we beat Affinity, and instead of Ethersworn, I think that Gaddock Teeg would be better.

I used to run 2x Orim's chant against combo and control, and if you feel like you have enough room in the side, I really do recommend them. Great cards! Siding 1 in against control is always nice.

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I think we have an edge over affinity, but there are times we cannot combo but have 4 mana in T3 to buy us 1-2 more rounds for the win... I also want to test Kataki vs. monoartifact stax or metalworker builds.
Maybe Karakas is not necessary but I want to test if I can actually use it anticipating a iona or vs. a show and tell emrakul.

In which specific situation do you think gaddock teeg is better than canonist?
I do want to test which of the questionable sideboard spots are not that necessary, so I can probably make room for a third orim's chant. As you say it is a very flexible card that helps not only in combo MU and might be better than Mindbreak Trap.

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Originally Posted by catmint

I think we have an edge over affinity, but there are times we cannot combo but have 4 mana in T3 to buy us 1-2 more rounds for the win... I also want to test Kataki vs. monoartifact stax or metalworker builds.
Maybe Karakas is not necessary but I want to test if I can actually use it anticipating a iona or vs. a show and tell emrakul.

In which specific situation do you think gaddock teeg is better than canonist?
I do want to test which of the questionable sideboard spots are not that necessary, so I can probably make room for a third orim's chant. As you say it is a very flexible card that helps not only in combo MU and might be better than Mindbreak Trap.

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Wouldn't Wishing for Viridian Shaman be good for either scenario against artifact decks? On turn 3 they don't normally have enough attacks to make us worry about losing to lethal, and given that we can quite easily find Wirewood Symbiote, we start to just annihilate their board position by recycling V.Shaman. I'm not sure also in which situation would you be limited to 4 mana on turn 3 with a Wish in hand. (if there's a choke on mana on turn 2, Wish for Cradle)

I don't think Canonist is the right call in this deck at all. It does everything we don't want to see - stops our combo turn. Teeg is more beneficial in all combo matchups in that it allows us to tutor for it with GSZ, allows us to continue comboing off Glimpse/Pact/Wish, and stops all the troublesome 4cc spells from wrecking us (at least from the Combo matchups, and EE :P)

I don't see Kataki being better off than Viridian Shaman however. Even against Stax.

Also, regarding SnT Emrakul - this is a bye. We can combo off and cast our own (free turn), and then on the extra turn go off again. We can also cast enough permanents that we simply ignore the Annihilator 6 and soak up the 15 damage.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Also, regarding SnT Emrakul - this is a bye. We can combo off and cast our own (free turn), and then on the extra turn go off again. We can also cast enough permanents that we simply ignore the Annihilator 6 and soak up the 15 damage.

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We can also tutor Masticore and pay 30 mana to kill Emrakul which is TONS more fun ^^

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Originally Posted by catmint

In which specific situation do you think gaddock teeg is better than canonist?

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I think I was a little too rude. What I meant to say is that we need to totally optimize our spots. We are a combo deck afterwards. So having cards for matchups for which we already have sideboard (Krosan grip, Viridian Shaman, Viridian Zealot) or siding in cards to which we usually want to fight, destroy, and hate (Canonist) doesn't seem too positive.
I believe that Gaddock Teeg is superior firstly because it can be tutored in many more pairings (it is more versatile-optimized). ANT might need a whole turn to get rid of it, good enough slowing, specially if you also run Orim's and/or Thorn of amethyst. He doesn't stop our deck's main purpose. Findable with other tutors. Has a way cooler art ^^
Also if we land a fast enough Canonist, that will mean that we don't have many dudes out, and that will cause us and ANT to draw, and draw, and draw for a couple turns, which will probably lead into ANT finding all they need to deal with us, faster than we do.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Nihil- looks like the only real difference between our lists now is that you're running a zealot main, and have one less pact and one less wish.

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You might also realize that I do not run Emrakul. He's too much of an overkill, wasted side spot.
I have played tons of games without him and only with Mirror Entity, worked so well so far, never needed him, but instead Mirror showed useful as a cheaper pumper a couple times.

Is mortarpod a good sideboard? I am running a Hivemaster build so making tokens is not an issue

Wow the new set got some hate in it:
Torpor Orb (2)
Artifact (R)
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

This stops our glimpse from triggering?

But more:
Mental Misstep (pu)
Instant (U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

This might be a good sideboard card for us too, but dang it can counter nearly the entire deck! FOR FREE! :(

Marrow Shards (pw)
Instant (U)
Marrow Shards deals 1 damage to each attacking creature.

I dont think this will be very played, maybe instead of Wing shards in some mono white builds but even then I dont think it will see much play. And with archdruid/warcaller it should be okay.

But dang this new set is getting crazy! :) A free counter, a improved illusionary mask...!

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

Wow the new set got some hate in it:
Torpor Orb (2)
Artifact (R)
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

This stops our glimpse from triggering?

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Glimpse triggers on casting so Orb doesn't stop it.

what do u guys think about the 2 mana 5/6 guy that can only be cast of creatures ?

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

what do u guys think about the 2 mana 5/6 guy that can only be cast of creatures ?

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It is a good creature, but not for Combo Elves. It can probably work for Aggro Elves but definitely not Combo Elves

And that's because? I mean it's nice as a sideboard card where people board in stuff like canonist or other anti chain combo spells. Beating down with 5/6 creatures seems ok for me.

Yeah, but then you might just as well play Tarmogoyf. At least goyf triggers Sentinel and can be found with GSZ/Pact. Or just play Jitte.

I saw a few comments about Mirror Entity...just curious: why would anyone use Mirror Entity over Joraga Warcaller? I just started playing with 1x Joraga Warcaller maindeck, and it seems like a really solid Pact target.

A question: I am currently using 15 lands (3 Verdant Catacombs, 1 Wooded Foothills, 11 Forests) and I'm thinking about putting in an Elvish Spirit Guide x1 instead of 1x Forest. How many lands are folks running currently, and is 14 + 1x ESG enough mana sources?

Mirror Entity allows you to produce infinite mana with Wirewood Symbiote, in a really hairbrained loop that I can't remember exactly at this moment. Using that trick, you can attack with the elves you started off the turn with for as much as you need, say with 300/300 creatures.

RE: Lands
We've tried anything between 14 Forest to 5 forests + 9 fetchland, and in between. I've been happy running 6 forests, 7 fetchlands, and 1 Gaea's Cradle, along with 2 ESG. I think the more Cradles you run, the higher the dependence on ESG becomes.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I saw a few comments about Mirror Entity...just curious: why would anyone use Mirror Entity over Joraga Warcaller? I just started playing with 1x Joraga Warcaller maindeck, and it seems like a really solid Pact target.

A question: I am currently using 15 lands (3 Verdant Catacombs, 1 Wooded Foothills, 11 Forests) and I'm thinking about putting in an Elvish Spirit Guide x1 instead of 1x Forest. How many lands are folks running currently, and is 14 + 1x ESG enough mana sources?

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On the mirror entity thing: Warcaller is awesome, but we usually need 2 or 3 aggro turns to kill with him, with Entity it is usually only 1 turn. So Warcaller is better because it's good for combo (CMC 1), but Entity is tons better as a finisher. Ofcourse you should only play him next to Living Wish or Chord of calling. Entity you also need to actually test it to see how good it is ;)
Also the infinite mana loop really isn't complicated, try to figure it out for yourselves, if you can't private me. Keep in mind that Entity+Symbiote can also bounce Regal Force to the hand to recast.

On the lands topic: It depend on the number of Llanowars you run. Right now I have 7 Llanowars, and 14 lands, and it's really solid. I actually would run 13 lands + 1 Craddle. The problem is that I only own 1 and it is a Wish target, but I would add another one maindeck. I tried it for a time when they lend me an extra one and it was awesome. This would be the absolute limit, and you need 7 Manowars.

I have always thought about adding 1 Elvish Spirit guide, but since I don't own any I haven't tested it. I found a couple games where I had 1 summoner's pact in hand and needed 1 mana to keep on comboing, and that would be an ESG!

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Wouldn't Wishing for Viridian Shaman be good for either scenario against artifact decks? On turn 3 they don't normally have enough attacks to make us worry about losing to lethal, and given that we can quite easily find Wirewood Symbiote, we start to just annihilate their board position by recycling V.Shaman. I'm not sure also in which situation would you be limited to 4 mana on turn 3 with a Wish in hand. (if there's a choke on mana on turn 2, Wish for Cradle)

I don't think Canonist is the right call in this deck at all. It does everything we don't want to see - stops our combo turn. Teeg is more beneficial in all combo matchups in that it allows us to tutor for it with GSZ, allows us to continue comboing off Glimpse/Pact/Wish, and stops all the troublesome 4cc spells from wrecking us (at least from the Combo matchups, and EE :P)

I don't see Kataki being better off than Viridian Shaman however. Even against Stax.

Also, regarding SnT Emrakul - this is a bye. We can combo off and cast our own (free turn), and then on the extra turn go off again. We can also cast enough permanents that we simply ignore the Annihilator 6 and soak up the 15 damage.

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Conncerning Gaddock vs. Canonist:
Versus the combo matchup I thought it is more likely for us to win the game with canonist, because (I thought - no experience yet) if we allow them to play multiple ponder, preordains or whatever wishes/tutors with gaddock they can bounce it really easy and win the same turn.

Siding him in gives me only a little advantage because I play 4 pact and no GSZ. The likeliness that I am able to play him T2 + being able to pay for pact is not much higher than beeing able to wish and cast in T2.
Btw: I goldfished 30 games to check how fast I can play canonist and it was 7% Turn2. 63% turn 3.
Canonist does not stop our deck... only our combo, but the aggro plan is still working.
The extra value of Gaddock vs. othe rmatchups is an argument. Do you side him in vs. control?

Concerning Kataki vs. Viridian Shaman
I think you are right here. Usually there is only 1 Artifact that is very troublesome (chalice, plating, metalworker) and bouncing and playing again is of course awesome. I felt that affinity decks got better though... having Agent of Bolas and more colered hate cards from the side, so they can interact more by still having a super strong clock. Since their lands are also artifacts this little cmc 2 creature should just ruin them. Vs. metalworker builds Kataki does not really help that much and vs. staxx builds we need to destroy the chalice/trinisphere.
So overall I think you are right and Kataki is not necessary.

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Originally Posted by catmint

Conncerning Gaddock vs. Canonist:
Versus the combo matchup I thought it is more likely for us to win the game with canonist, because (I thought - no experience yet) if we allow them to play multiple ponder, preordains or whatever wishes/tutors with gaddock they can bounce it really easy and win the same turn.

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The point of Gaddock Teeg isn't to lock them out; it's to buy us enough time to combo off for our deck. Canonist is a symmetrical effect in that aspect. Gaddock Teeg stops their combo kill; they can still burn a Burning Wish to find removal for it; oh well.

Canonist doesn't necessarily stop them from Storming off. They can still cast all their artifacts, then finish up with Tendrils of Agony; or Empty the Warrens making tokens. granted, we're not worried about a bunch of tokens attacking us (we can make more creatures easily); but there still exists a threat that they can still kill under Canonist, and since we're now limited by 1 spell a turn, we might not be able to out-creature EtW.

The important point remains that Teeg allows us to still combo off and kill in a timely manner; where Canonist requires several turns to aggro.

So i was thinking about playing combo elves in GP Providence but Mental Misstep has me running scared. Do you guys think autumn's veil might be worth running to avoid getting glimpse countered?

Ha, you could run your own MM's. But Autumn's Veil seems decent as a Silence for this deck. Any other opinions?

Just run a more resilient list with game outside of Glimpse.

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

On the mirror entity thing: Warcaller is awesome, but we usually need 2 or 3 aggro turns to kill with him, with Entity it is usually only 1 turn. So Warcaller is better because it's good for combo (CMC 1), but Entity is tons better as a finisher. Ofcourse you should only play him next to Living Wish or Chord of calling. Entity you also need to actually test it to see how good it is ;)
Also the infinite mana loop really isn't complicated, try to figure it out for yourselves, if you can't private me. Keep in mind that Entity+Symbiote can also bounce Regal Force to the hand to recast.

On the lands topic: It depend on the number of Llanowars you run. Right now I have 7 Llanowars, and 14 lands, and it's really solid. I actually would run 13 lands + 1 Craddle. The problem is that I only own 1 and it is a Wish target, but I would add another one maindeck. I tried it for a time when they lend me an extra one and it was awesome. This would be the absolute limit, and you need 7 Manowars.

I have always thought about adding 1 Elvish Spirit guide, but since I don't own any I haven't tested it. I found a couple games where I had 1 summoner's pact in hand and needed 1 mana to keep on comboing, and that would be an ESG!

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I was thinking of Warcaller as an additional mana-sink with Elvish Archdruid/Priest of Titania. If you pull it off, you can tap one of them for like 7-8 mana, untap with Symbiote, tap again for a total of 16 mana, then pump that into Joraga Warcaller making him a 9/9 dude and all your elves get +4/+4. If that doesn't let you get a 1-turn aggro win...you must be playing the mirror match, lol.

The infini-loop isn't too hard to figure out...Entity makes Symbiote into an elf. So you can bounce him to hand (with himself or another) and then replay him so he can untap another target elf (hopefully a priest or archrduid, but untapping 1-3 Nettle Sentinels is fine, too...) You could bounce Regal Force if you don't have a glimpse handy, which would get you the cards you need.

I am currently using 6 llanowars (4 Llanowar Elves, 2 Fyndhorn Elves. I cut 1 Fyndhorn for 1 Warcaller) I have all 8 available, and here is my current list. I know I'll get flak because I'm still using a Grapeshot win/con and no Living Wish package.

4x Llanowar Elves
2x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Birchlore Rangers
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Elvish Archdruid
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Priest of Titania
1x Joraga Warcaller
1x Regal Force
1x Elvish Spirit Guide

4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Summoner's Pact
1x Grapeshot

3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
10x Forest

Sideboard (currently):

3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Caller of the Claw
4x Gleeful Sabotage
4x Autumn's Veil
1x Imperious Perfect


BTW, I am indeed using Autumn's Veil in the sideboard vs. control.