Miracle Control

Thought #1: The Humility + Jace plan is really awkward because they can still put a bunch of guys on the table and kill Jace. If you had Elspeth or Thopter-Foundry or maybe even Shackles, it would make Jace more reliable. In this deck, Humility isn't really a substitute for Moat.

Thought #2: That you came up with Pyroclasm and Slice and Dice, but never imagined playing Firespout against Goblins is pretty embarrassing.

Thought #3: I generally agree with Hanni about the right way to approach Miracles versus Omniscience combo. That said, "Counter the cantrip against their 1 land hand" is a sweet play, but it is harder to pull off against Discard. That said, I think "discard and REB are both good against Esperblade/Combo so they're a wash" is sort of false. Jiaozy makes this point about how many matchups REB is live in, but it's not good in those. I generally don't board in REB if it can only hit Force of Will and maybe a Jace or 2. I am not sure it's something I'm boarding in against BUG, RUG or even EsperBlade. If you have nothing else, you probably do, but it is very low impact against EsperBlade; many of the things you care about are white.

Against the combo decks, discard is largely better than REB. When I play combo decks, it's the card I fear more and am less well equipped to deal with. REB is just a counter; it's a very good one against the right cards, but it's just a counter, and that's something they're prepared to deal with. Discard lets me save my mana on the critical turn and gives perfect information in many cases and it can cripple them in a way that just counters can't (the Ritual-Duress-IT lines of play). However, discard is a thing that I often cut from sideboards because I have a good enough anti-combo game and I expect it to be a small part of the metagame. If they have Abrupt Decay, discard also deals with that line of play much better.

So I don't think red versus black is clear cut. I am not sure how in love I am with either E. Plague or Sulfur Elemental against just Stoneblade; if the only thing we fear is Lingering Souls, there seem like better approaches.

[QUOTE=Anusien;690193]Thought #1: The Humility + Jace plan is really awkward because they can still put a bunch of guys on the table and kill Jace. If you had Elspeth or Thopter-Foundry or maybe even Shackles, it would make Jace more reliable. In this deck, Humility isn't really a substitute for Moat.


is Humility + SFM & equip + Jace + Verdict a good plan VS Goblins??? Tutor for Bskull, Lock the game with Humility then control with Jace/Verdict???

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Thanks for being an asshole, since I clearly don't understand the English language enough for you to quote a dictionary. I applaud you sir, you have outdone yourself. However, if you expect any sort of intelligent response back, unfortunately, I'm out of give-a-fucks.

Aside from your idiocy, you go on continuing to think that the red splash is better than the black splash, and that REB is strictly superior to discard in everyway, and that the red splash does anything to shore up your actual bad matchups, and that Sulfur Elemental is actually worth space in the 75. I clearly don't know anything about how this deck operates. Again, congratulations on your fine display of internet machismo.

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Having no clue of who you are, where are you from nor of your level of instruction, how am I supposed to know how well you know the english language?

Seriously, I'm sorry if you took offense on that, but no offense was meant.
Maybe I misunderstood your post and you didn't understand mine (from that "Eh?" I thought you didn't) because of my bad grammar, which is possible.

Again I'm sorry if you took offense from my reply because all I'm trying to do here is bring to the table ups and downs of playing black and red as splash and, since I had the better results by far in testing with red, I'm trying to explain my approach and strategy when playing it.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

EDIT: Decided to throw out a PRO TIP for you...

Countering their cantrips is fucking... wait for it... retarded. You're not Tempo Thresh, you don't have the clock for that be an even remotely decent play. It's an awful play decision. You're much better off just putting all your eggs into the counter SNT basket and hoping you can find an O Ring/D Sphere, clock them with Clique, stick a Jace and get good fateseals, or drop a big Entreat, before they finally do resolve an SNT.

Discard is strong here because they spend effort sculpting a hand, and then you pick it apart, and know exactly how to play around the rest. But what do I know? I mean, I don't even know what the word flexible means, right?

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Discard with a CLOCK is strong.
Discard with NO CLOCK just sucks, because you're just delaying the inevitable or slowing them down by a turn or two, while impairing their setup and development (counters on cantrips) and with the same cards being able to stop their combo (Counter on S&T/High Tide/Time Spiral/Whatever) is much more efficient.
Against ANT you bring them in just for that: counter on cantrip so you can save Force, Pierce and Counterspell for the Ad Nauseam or PiF that will win them the game.

Leaving them free to sculpt a perfect hand and do nothing because "It's just a Brainstorm/Ponder and no one ever counters a Brainstorm/Ponder" is fucked up logic, because they play 12 cantrip for the sole purpose of having a perfect hand for the combo turn.
In those MUs YOU are the aggro deck and need to keep them low on supplies and out of means of assembling their combo, otherwise they'll just win, sooner or later, since you put no pressure on them.

Any half-decent combo player will hide its combo pieces on top with Brainstorm/Top or keep them there with Ponder/Preordain, to draw them in the crucial turn.
Sure, against bad opponents that do not plan their game properly and just draw their combo pieces with cantrip discard is good, but against anyone that knows what they're doing discard isn't that threatening, especially if you only play 4 pinpoint discard.

Decks like BUG Delver or Esper Blade can afford to play discard as their main plan against combo because they can put a clock on the combo decks, while this deck can't and need to have cards that are good both at slowing their development (REBing their cantrips) AND on their big turn (counters on S&T and their own countermagic).

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Thought #2: That you came up with Pyroclasm and Slice and Dice, but never imagined playing Firespout against Goblins is pretty embarrassing.

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Against Goblin, Pyroclasm and Firespout do the exact same thing and are both sorcery but one costs 2 and the other 3, so I never considered it.
I considered S&D because it's instant speed, cantrips and is also good against Elves on their big turn.
The only pro of playing Firespout without green would be to hit Mongeese but Terminus and Supreme Verdict do that well enough for me.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Thought #3: I generally agree with Hanni about the right way to approach Miracles versus Omniscience combo. That said, "Counter the cantrip against their 1 land hand" is a sweet play, but it is harder to pull off against Discard. That said, I think "discard and REB are both good against Esperblade/Combo so they're a wash" is sort of false. Jiaozy makes this point about how many matchups REB is live in, but it's not good in those. I generally don't board in REB if it can only hit Force of Will and maybe a Jace or 2. I am not sure it's something I'm boarding in against BUG, RUG or even EsperBlade. If you have nothing else, you probably do, but it is very low impact against EsperBlade; many of the things you care about are white.

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Against Esper Blade REBs are Counterspell + Swords to Plowshares wrapped into one, since more half their critters are blue (Vendilion + Snapcaster) and hitting Force, Pierce, Jace or even Intuition isn't that bad either.

Against Delver having additional early removal for their Delver is often key for winning the game and winning counterwars on Jace or Liliana is still something I care for.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Against the combo decks, discard is largely better than REB. When I play combo decks, it's the card I fear more and am less well equipped to deal with. REB is just a counter; it's a very good one against the right cards, but it's just a counter, and that's something they're prepared to deal with. Discard lets me save my mana on the critical turn and gives perfect information in many cases and it can cripple them in a way that just counters can't (the Ritual-Duress-IT lines of play). However, discard is a thing that I often cut from sideboards because I have a good enough anti-combo game and I expect it to be a small part of the metagame. If they have Abrupt Decay, discard also deals with that line of play much better.

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I'm not saying discard is BAD in a vacuum, I'm saying discard is worse than REB in THIS DECK and THIS META.

In the right decks, discard can be crippling against combo, but having just a playset of pinpoint discard with no sort of clock, just makes you waste resources while they build up and hide theirs for the critical turn.

If you can afford a flurry of discard spells AND can provide a clock like Esper or BUG can, then it's definitely an option, but a deck with no clock that relies on 4 discard spells to slow combo down isn't going to cut it and the recent Miracle results just testify for my words, if you don't believe my testing or opinion just look at the facts.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

So I don't think red versus black is clear cut. I am not sure how in love I am with either E. Plague or Sulfur Elemental against just Stoneblade; if the only thing we fear is Lingering Souls, there seem like better approaches.

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I'm not saying that we NEED Sulfur Elemental, I'm just saying that it's another card that can be flexible enough to be worth some SB slot and can easily be played since most decks are already packing the REB package that is good against 80% of the field and, other than Lingering Souls, it deals with Mother or Runes, Elspeth tokens and speeds up your clock a bit.

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Having no clue of who you are

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This seems to be the biggest hurdle I have to jump over every time I post in this thread. So much reinventing the wheel... not sure why I even bother posting sometimes.

This is who I am

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Thought #1: The Humility + Jace plan is really awkward because they can still put a bunch of guys on the table and kill Jace. If you had Elspeth or Thopter-Foundry or maybe even Shackles, it would make Jace more reliable. In this deck, Humility isn't really a substitute for Moat.

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Just wanted to point out that Jace+Humility is strong. Your opponent needs three creatures in play just to start grinding down Jace. This makes them overextend while you fish for a Terminus or Entreat. It also cuts off goblins card advantage machine: Ringleader.

Personally I don't think either one is the better card, Moat or Humility, as they both have their pro and cons. Both cards can situationally be the better card in a lot of match ups.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

This seems to be the biggest hurdle I have to jump over every time I post in this thread. So much reinventing the wheel... not sure why I even bother posting sometimes.

This is who I am

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By the way. I believe your primer is in need of an update Hanni.

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By the way. I believe your primer is in need of an update Hanni.

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Well,

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Control/page20

Basically, I was going to update the primer, and then I decided not to.

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Hanni

Sorry for the double post, but I also wanted to mention the OP. The OP Primer is rather old, and since I reserved post 2, I think I will copy/paste the original OP Primer to the second post, and create a revision to the OP Primer in the OP (first post).

I am more than willing to accept input from anyone who wants to contribute.

I'm not sure how much room I will have, but I wouldn't mind including a small section for matchup analysis for the DTB or major archetypes, and possibly some boarding plans.

We'll see how much time I have to do so. The last time I wrote a primer for this deck, it took like 2-3 weeks because of how busy I was with work/school. Don't expect any immediate results for this one, but I will get around to it as time permits.

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Koby

I suggest you put your ego aside and examine the statistically average decklist from the last month, then examine core cards vs fringe cards in the archetype. While it might be nice to have your deck in the spotlight, it would be more informative to have a wide open starting point rather than focusing on your own particular build.

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Koby

Your ego has a big part of the old primer. "I", "I've", and "I'm" appear over 100 times. It does not read as though you are building concensus but rather hyping yourself and your ideas. Hence, i suggest to be humble and make the primer more accessible to someone who might not agree with each and every card choice.

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Klaus

+1
Hanni, I love your passion for deck building, but there have been tons of UW control lists featuring your approach before, the only actual difference is that you have been hyping CB-Top quite persistently - I've tested most of the viable approaches extensively and came to the conclusion that CB-Top wasn't the way to go.
Now a 1 mana Wrath comes along and suddenly CB-Top is cool.
I don't want to sound harsh but ..so we got lucky the miracle is white and fits the deck neatly.
I'm not hating on you, it's just that I totally see Koby's point: humbleness where humbleness is due --> primers should be written with a semi-scientific approach.

Well yeah, please don't take personal offense.
Cheers,
klaus

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Water_Wizard


Wow! Conceited much? This isn't "your U/W Control deck" and its addition to the DTB certainly isn't 4 years overdue. Just because you started the thread doesn't make it "your" deck. Please show me the Top 8's over the past 4 years that show this deck should have been a DTB. Clearly, they do not exist and it is insulting to the moderators that you imply this should have been a DTB for the past 4 years. A simple, "Yes, we're on DTB!" or "I'm so glad the thread I started was upgraded to DTB!" would do.

All complaining aside, Hanni, I appreciate your contributions to this and other threads. I'm looking forward to the updated primer. While you can be adamant about your points of view, they usually are solid arguments founded in a strong understanding of the deck. I also appreciate Thorondor's and klaus's recent discussions regarding a "base" for the deck, as the base goes a long way to defining the deck and differentiating it from UW Stoneblade.

I'm also happy the mods decided to split the UW Stoneblade and UW Miracles into two separate threads (much like BUG Tempo and BUG Control) as they are different decks and they play differently (a few pages back on the UW Stoneblade thread there was some discussion of separating out Miracle decks). However, as klaus, Philipp802, and Nihil pointed out, I, too, believe all of the UW Stoneblade lists will shift to Terminus and there will only be one UW DTB within a few months.

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Hanni

Wow. I'm not even sure how to reply to this. You guys clearly don't understand the history behind this deck at all. Back in 2007-2008, I was continuously bashed throughout development from the Landstill community (the U/W Control deck of the time) for trying to create a U/W Counterbalance shell. Throughout all of the roadblocks, I still developed the deck and created a new thread for it. Some of those who were interested in the deck and contributed alot asked me to write a new primer for it, so I did.

The primer was written in an "I" style, get over it.

No Klaus, there weren't tons of U/W Control decks with the Counterbalance approach before, at least not during the time of this decks creation and development back in 2008. You should know this better than anyone else because you were part of that Landstill community.

CB/Top has always been the way to go for U/W Control, but the metagame was simply bad for it when Merfolk was the DTB and played en masse. Looking back now, a few adjustments like running 4 Wasteland would have improved that matchup significantly, but that's neither here nor there. Point is, U/W Control was just a bad deck in general back in that metagame, Counterbalance or not. Then SFM came out, and the SFM shell became the go-to U/W Control (albeit it was an aggro/control deck) because it smashed Merfolk. Fast forward to right now... Merfolk is gone, and U/W Counterbalance (with sweepers) is better against the current metagame than the SFM lists.

Conceited? lol

I was making a joke regarding the 4 years overdue thing. But let me point this out; obviously this deck wasn't a DTB, because a DTB is classified as a big player in a metagame. There are plenty of Tier 1 quality decks out there that aren't in the DTB because they don't see enough play.

At any rate, I've decided that I'm not going to write the primer anymore. Thanks for being assholes about it.

Tons of other discussions and stuff I'd like to address, since the page has grown 5 pages over the last few days while I was getting my new computer up and running, but I don't have enough time to do that right now. Just one thing I want to point out though, in regards to C Wish being used to answer artifacts/enchantments... it's slow, and O Ring does that job just fine. Sure, O Ring it doesn't grab Surgical Extraction, but it does answer Emrakul, so there are pros and cons for both. C Wish costing as much mana as it does, though, makes O Ring a much better versatile answer card if you ask me.

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EDIT: Just wanted to add a bit more to why I'm not going to update the primer. Throughout pretty much the entire development of this deck from 2008-2010, there was mostly negative criticism. There were a few very helpful members that worked on the development, in the original thread (not this one), but this deck was largely considered a joke by many people. Terminus was a massive upgrade for this deck in the removal department, but it's funny how much I've read about this deck over the months since this deck has been a DTB, and it's humorous to me now to read stuff where people act like they've always felt a certain way about something when it contradicts what they said 4 years ago (no, I'm not pointing any fingers here, and no, I'm not going to go dig up old quotes). Maybe my ego is over inflated when it comes to this archetype, but only because of the hardships of the past with getting the deck recognized as "not a pile of shit." I was butt hurt about the above responses 6 months ago (regarding me updating the primer), but I'm just apathetic about it now. Again, it's stuff like this that maintains my apathy:

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Having no clue of who you are, where are you from nor of your level of instruction, how am I supposed to know how well you know the english language?

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If someone else wants to start a new thread + primer for the deck, by all means go for it. The OP is old and extremely outdated, so I don't mind someone else taking over the reigns. It would probably help deflate my ego some, too.

I watched the SCG vegas stream last night and Joe Lossett put on an absolute clinic with this deck in the quarters. He went with 2 Karakas to really capitalize on the raw power of the Venser/Clique plan and looked extremely effective running 3 Cliques and a Venser MB. I've noticed lists running a 3/3 split on top and CB and Joe ran a 4/4. He also cut a FOW and added a 3rd Spell Pierce which I found interesting but considering the current meta with the rise of the "fair decks" lately it makes a lot of sense.

I am totally wiped out this morning, driving three hours home after losing in top 4. But I will put something together about the event later this week. For now I'll just say that I really appreciated that the top 8 was untimed, since that match would not have been possible in the swiss. To anyone who put some thought into my question a few days ago about how to add a second karakas, I ended up cutting my portent for it. I didn't really want to do that, but there wasn't another good option. I did get stuck drawing both of them a few times on the day. If you are going to load up on legends then I think it is reasonable. If not, then I would stick with one and run the cantrip or a different land.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Well,

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Control/page20

Basically, I was going to update the primer, and then I decided not to.

EDIT: . . . Maybe my ego is over inflated when it comes to this archetype, but only because of the hardships of the past with getting the deck recognized as "not a pile of shit." I was butt hurt about the above responses 6 months ago (regarding me updating the primer), but I'm just apathetic about it now. Again, it's stuff like this that maintains my apathy:

If someone else wants to start a new thread + primer for the deck, by all means go for it. The OP is old and extremely outdated, so I don't mind someone else taking over the reigns. It would probably help deflate my ego some, too.

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Hanni, for what it's worth, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or make you feel "butt hurt."

If you don't want to update the primer, that's your prerogative. It doesn't hurt those of us who are experienced with the deck (although it would be nice to read your perspectives); it hurts those who are new to Legacy, new to The Source, and new to Miracle Control.

As competitive as Magic can get, I've never meant to hurt anyone feelings and I'm sorry if I've hurt yours.

I wasn't being sarcastic with my post. If someone else wants to start a new thread for Miracles to make a new primer, they should.

And you don't need to apologize, it is what it is. I just don't feel like putting in the time and effort to write a new primer anymore.

It makes more sense for someone popular who actually has multiple Top 8 finishes in big events to update the primer anyway. I haven't been able to play in an actual paper magic tournament since 2006, so I don't have the credibility that some of the other posters in here do. All I have is seniority.

I don't think they would start a new primer; I think they would just allow someone else to edit your first few posts.

Staring a new thread is impractical, so I don't understand why you would offer it as a suggestion?

Why would we lose months worth of discussion because you refuse to update the primer?

The logical solution is that the administrators override your ability to edit the opening post or 'primer' and allow someone else to make the changes.

Personally, I don't read the primer. I may read it if it were updated to learn about your opinions on recent changes to the deck. The primer is mainly for players who are new to the deck so that they can get caught up to speed on the current status of the deck and then begin reading and posting. The efficacy of a primer is that it prevents every new player from needing to repeat the basic questions of 'why is this card played?', 'why isn't that card played?', and 'how do I sideboard against xyz?'.

Other than the obvious casting of SCG legacy, I've also seen a rise in BUG primarily with Deathrite Shaman deck recently. Examining this match-up, we'll never have enough answers for BUG's threats. You have to answer DS and Liliana, while fighting off their discard. Counterbalance is rather useless, since you have to get pass BUG's counter and then it might just run into Abrupt Decay.

I am proposing leyline of sanctity to fight off all the Inquisition and Liliana while the enchantment is totally immune from Abrupt Decay. Another card that might work is serrated arrow. This card is very efficient at taking care of DS while immune from that Abrupt Decay. One can argue that misdirection might also be a decent sideboard, might be interesting if you can redirect AD to his own goyf or DS.

What do you guys think?

I also thought that a misdirection effect would be good against abrupt decay. The night before the event I considered replacing a spell pierce with a divert. In the end I decided not to since it would weaken me against several combo decks.

Serrated Arrows seems like a poor solution to Deathrite Shaman since you have to use two counters to kill one creature. Against decks that also have dark confidant it might work better, but even then I think it is probably too slow.

Leyline of Sanctity would help against several cards in BUG decks. Even so, I doubt it is worth playing. I do not see a feasible way to create several slots in the sideboard just to protect myself from discard spells. Brainstorm and Sensei's Diving Top do a reasonable job of that already.

If you are worried about BUG...

1) Run Rest in Peace - either run multiples or a way to find it. Sure, it dies to Abrupt Decay, but removes the graveyard once it hits play. Plus, the new BUG lists are only running 3 Decays, so they have to decide between Counterbalance, Rest in Peace, etc. With Rest in Peace in play, Deathrite is a vanilla 1/2, Tarmogoyf is a 0/1, and Tombstalker is impossible to cast.

2) Run more spot removal. Add some Path to Exiles to the board. BUG only runs 14 creatures, so if you have a few sweepers and some spot removal, you'll be alright.

Liliana is tough, but arguably affects BUG more than she affects us because we can play off the top of our libraries. Only the mid-range and control BUG variants are playing Liliana - the tempo version doesn't run planeswalkers. Most of the decks that run planeswalkers are running fewer creatures, so you can adjust your deck accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

If you are worried about BUG...

1) Run Rest in Peace - either run multiples or a way to find it. Sure, it dies to Abrupt Decay, but removes the graveyard once it hits play. Plus, the new BUG lists are only running 3 Decays, so they have to decide between Counterbalance, Rest in Peace, etc. With Rest in Peace in play, Deathrite is a vanilla 1/2, Tarmogoyf is a 0/1, and Tombstalker is impossible to cast.

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I like the thought, but I think Relic is a bit better at this, as it can grind out all of thier graveyard interaction, and replaces itself eventually.

First of all, thank for everyone's input.

1. Relic of Progenitus
Joe Lossett. Top4 in Starcitygames Open Series: Las Vegas (Dec-2012)
Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor

Hence, I am guessing that is the anti-graveyard/DS package he's running. Notice his version MD Venser, he can always EOT Venser Liliana back to opponent's hand, then Clique that card away. BTW, Venser hoses Show and Tell fairly well.

2. misdirection
You can think of this as 5th FoW. It's not only useful against BUG, it's also good against Show and Tell. Often Show and Tell would have at least 1 counter to back up his first Show and Tell. Misdirection can be that extra counter for you to win the counter war.

3. Leyline of sanctity
I know this seems a huge commitment in the SB. However, more often or not, BUG just starts his turn with a discard and then drops Liliana (faster than you think with DS in play). Even if I try to O-ring it later, O-ring would just run into Abrupt Decay. Leyline protects you from both discard and important part of Liliana.
Leyline on paper appears to have narrow range. However, it actually helps against opponent's Clique & Discard in EsperBlade, High Tide, and Aluren.

4. MD Rest in Peace
If I were to MD this card, I feel like I should just take the RiP + Energy Field approach. Going down this path, I might as well replace Snapcaster Mage with Enlightened Tutor.

Does the Miracles player always board out Counterbalance against the Abrupt Decay BUG decks? Should they?

BUG Control has always been a problem for UW Control.

My opinion on gaining the edge in this matchup would be additional wincons. That means Elspeth or Stoneforge/Batterskull.

Alternatively, Blood Moon for the red splash always works too

Blood Moon or Back to Basics would be very good right now.

-Matt

Blood Moon and Back to Basic are not possible for Miracle Control, no need to suggest something that's not within the bounds of Miracle Control.

Stoneforge/Batterskull, as in Miracle Blade, that's not the solution neither. If you play EsperBlade, I would agree since Lingering Souls would negate Liliana; Miracle Blade is simply not enough. If Miracle Blade were enough, people would not bother to mention this match up at the first place.