[Deck] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt

I think he meant this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...u-x-Blue-Sligh

They both show up in a Google search, and have the exact same name and author... But one is for Modern, while the one you want is for Legacy.

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I just remembered Hanni was into this deck and searched it here, but yeah, I meant the Legacy one. :/

@CabalTherapy
Make a new thread, post in the UWR Delver thread or use Hanni's. This is definitely not the place for it.

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Originally Posted by Rafa.Osuna

Hey guys, does anyone know the Osyp Lebedowicz's sideboard?

Thank you :)

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The list is on Daily MTG, do some research on your own.

Hi all, Kendrick here. Glad to see some of you are experimenting with my list.
Feel free to ask any questions you have about the philosophies of the deck, or some of my inclusions/exclusions. I'd like to do a full write-up sometime but, to be honest, I'm not sure when I'd get around to it.

I'll address some specific comments that I noticed below. Current List is at the end of the post.

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Originally Posted by warfordium

i had some really clunky openers with the deck. had to keep 4 land, brainstorm, 4 fetch on the play in one game, for example; a naked Nivmagus without protection feels terrible. managed some nice plays (dazed a bolt, exiled the daze to pump elemental, swish!), but wasn't a fan of the card overall. i like this deck as counter-burn. missed the extra ponders, missed the spell pierces, missed the extra main deck price of progress, missed snapcaster, etc.

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Hi Warfordium.
What do you think could be done to decrease the likelihood of clunky openers? The example you gave was a land heavy hand and (with a land count of 16) I'm certainly not running too many lands. Are there any other examples of clunky openers besides land-count issues?
I have tried a more Snapcaster-centric build before. It's definitely a reasonable route to take. However, I really like how the current version can function effectively off 1-2 lands. This affords you many advantages, like being able to actively shuffle away your third land drop or always being able to empty your hand.
I am interested in possibly finding a place for Spell Pierce, but the maindeck seems too tight and it seems too low-impact to take up a sideboard slot. The fact that Flusterstorm has similar utility is also a knock against Spell Pierce.

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Originally Posted by syfilisx

I have yet to test Young Pyromancer, but I think it's less good topdeck than Snapcaster and I don't like playing gitaxian probes. Also I find that 3 dazes is enough since even if good with elemental, it loses a lot of actual countering value fast since I don't play wasteland. I play two stifles though for moment, but I have plans to change that soon.

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Hi Syfilisx.
First, I think cutting (even the 4th copy of) Gitaxian Probe is a mistake. This deck changes plans constantly: sometimes it's right to go all-in on Nivmagus and combo them; sometimes you have to be a control deck and run them out of threats; sometimes you need to be a scrappy burn deck and send every card to the face. The information you gain from Probe is incredibly helpful, necessary even. It's not just a information enabler either; it has a number of other helpful properties like being a free sorcery to start a Daze/Flusterstorm chain.
On Daze: I do think it's reasonable to go to 3 Daze, but I like 4. My reason is that this deck make the game all about the early turns. Whether you are making a 10/11 Nivmagus, Clouting a Delver, or protecting a Pyromancer, they must interact now. If they don't interact, it's already over; if they do, then Daze has your back.


Thank you for your feedback!

Current list:

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Nivmagus Elemental
3 Young Pyromancer

Lands (16)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

Spells (31)
1 Clout of the Dominus
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Clout of the Dominus
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Divert
1 Force of Will
2 Price of Progress
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Surgical Extraction

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Just got back from a 2nd place win out of 53 players from a local tournament here. Legacy Wars X (Philippines). I won a Tropical Island for my efforts.

I wanted to play a version of the deck with True Name Nemesis, but failed to get copies of it so I ran with this trusted build:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
2 Mountain
2 Island

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental

I didn't keep notes during the games so I will just post a list of my matchups.


R1: DnT 0-2 loss
R2: MBC 2-1 win
R3: OmniTell 2-0 win
R4: Elves 2-0 win
R5: Sneak Show 2-0 win
R6: Scapewish Nic Fit 2-1 win

Quarterfinals vs DeathBlade 2-0 win
Semis vs AnT 2-1 win
Finals vs Reanimator 1-2 loss

Props:
- Price of Progress for being an allstar!
- Good topdecks when I needed it! (usually for the last points of burn!)

Slops:
- Mulligan to hate only for it to be discarded
- Arriving late with a deck that was not yet "de-boarded" and sloppy shuffling during round1.

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Originally Posted by why

Hey Kendrick.
I've been running a similar list you for quite a while (from your list: -3 Force -1 Volcanic -1 Clout +1 Lavamancer +1 Young Pyromancer +1 Price of Progress +1 Island +1 Mountain). It's been great for me- I have lost very few sanctioned matches with it and won quite a bit playing in local tournaments over the course of the summer. I definitely think it's the place to be.

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Hey Why! Thanks for your response. I'm glad you are performing so well!

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Originally Posted by why

My forces are in the sideboard, which is largely a meta decision and I think it's often right. My sideboard has two cards you don't have: Sulfur Elemental and Smash to Smithereens. Both are fairly targeted (Elemental against Death and Taxes strategies and Smash against Stoneforge) and they've both been extremely impressive for me. I've been intending to try a one-of Blood Moon and True-Name Nemesis as board cards, but really haven't had the chance to test- they're at least worth considering.

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I'm guessing that we have different local metagames. I wish I could cut Force; this deck loves to cast all its spells individually and every card counts. But there is simply too much combo in my area to play less than 2 Forces. I used to play Sulfur Elemental, but I have since swapped them for Pyrokinesis. I chose to do that to get a little more game against the other creature decks in the format, specifically Elves, Maverick, and Goblins. I feel like the D&T matchup favors us already so I'd trade percentage points there for points elsewhere. Smash and True-Name are definitely cards I am planning on testing in the future.

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Originally Posted by why

I understand Clout of the Dominus in theory, but don't think I can really get behind that inclusion. It's definitely an answer to removal, but it also opens you up to being blown out by removal. Where has the card been best for you? How often does it just pitch to Force of Will?

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I don't think it opens you up to being blown out by removal as much as you might think. I find that Clout really presses the issue and requires that the opponent have the Swords/Bolt right away; which plays into our Dazes and Flusterstorms. Also, it's not too hard to play around a removal spell that you see with Probe: if you have no board presence they will usually feel safe to tap out for a turn 2 threat, and you can just shroud up on your turn by casting both a creature and Clout (if the creature is Nivmagus, you haven't lost any attacking turns). All that said, I think the route you are taking (just playing more threats) is reasonable. I just feel like the blue threats are much better at closing games so they are worth protecting. On pitching Clout to Force: I don't do it much, but there aren't many copies in the list. Generally, Clout is great early and weak late and I pitch it accordingly. It makes sense that the build with maindeck Forces can afford to play more situationally-powerful blue cards.

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Originally Posted by why

The only card I've really considered cutting recently is the fourth Nivmagus Elemental. The second one is rarely anywhere near as good as the first.

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To be honest, I have never thought about going to 3 Nivmagus, but it's definitely worth thinking about. I find that having the first copy boosts your win ratio too much not to run 4. This might be another example of extra blue cards still being valuable for Force of Will.

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Originally Posted by why

For the other people in the thread, I want to advocate heavily for this version of UR Delver. I think the biggest point in the favor of this deck is the versatility that this list offers. A lot of the cards here play defense very well and it allows you to change plans to best suit the matchup and the current state of the game. I think Kendrick's list gives you a big edge over most combo and RUG Delver when compared to a traditional list at little cost in most other matchups.

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Well said. This is exactly what I've been trying to portray; I wish I was this succinct in my Deck Tech!

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Next steps for me:

1. Test a more aggressive build: I've been meaning to try Goblin Guides over Young Pyromancer for awhile. I'm definitely tentative because YP is such a great backup plan. But that's just it: it feels like a backup plan. Lowering the curve even more could allow for more explosive flusterstorms and better 1-lander starting hands. It would be a more burn-centric build, with possibly 3 Price of Progress.

2. In the current list, revamp the sideboard. It seems that there are alot of great sideboard cards at 3 CMC (Sulfuric Vortex, True-Name). Could it be right to run an additional land in the side? Or do sideboarded games where you want those cards last long enough such that drawing the third land is not problematic?

But do you guys think it's safe to run TNN in a tempo shell?

I would love to see it in UR with GG and delver and pyromancer, but would 3/4 be too much? I am thinking it as a 2-off as potential blocker and faster clock.
3 Mana is a bit meh though..

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Originally Posted by Neffy

But do you guys think it's safe to run TNN in a tempo shell?

I would love to see it in UR with GG and delver and pyromancer, but would 3/4 be too much? I am thinking it as a 2-off as potential blocker and faster clock.
3 Mana is a bit meh though..

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imo Goblin Guide and TNN don't go in the same decks. Guide is a 100% aggro creature while TNN is something new but definitely not aggro, in fact it's like a less aggressive Geist. They might both be playable in UR decks but I think there's a distinction in game plan between the all-in aggro+burn UR decks that want Goblin Guide and the less-burn, bigger threats UR decks that play TNN.

"UR Delver" decks come from two places as far as I can tell; burn + blue, or threshold - goyf/mongoose. Both of these result in a deck that would be called "UR Delver" but they're distinct and crossing the strategies of both would dilute a deck's effectiveness (imo). Personally I don't think I would ever play a Goblin Guide deck with spells that cost more than 1 or 2 mana.

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Originally Posted by Neffy

But do you guys think it's safe to run TNN in a tempo shell?

I would love to see it in UR with GG and delver and pyromancer, but would 3/4 be too much? I am thinking it as a 2-off as potential blocker and faster clock.
3 Mana is a bit meh though..

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Someone took 11th place at the Star City Games Open in Dallas yesterday with a True-Name Nemesis tempo build. The list is here. He was running the merfolk alongside Young Pyromancer and Delver, but no Goblin Guide.

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Originally Posted by fdiv_bug

Someone took 11th place at the Star City Games Open in Dallas yesterday with a True-Name Nemesis tempo build. The list is here. He was running the merfolk alongside Young Pyromancer and Delver, but no Goblin Guide.

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I'm pretty sure this is the exact same list that got second at Legacy Champs.

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Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy

I'm pretty sure this is the exact same list that got second at Legacy Champs.

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It does appear to be. A resolved deluge or a plague naming human or merfolk appears to ruin its day, though. I guess the strategy is to kill them before they get to that point.

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Originally Posted by karaxu

Just got back from a 2nd place win out of 53 players from a local tournament here. Legacy Wars X (Philippines). I won a Tropical Island for my efforts.

I wanted to play a version of the deck with True Name Nemesis, but failed to get copies of it so I ran with this trusted build:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
2 Mountain
2 Island

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental

I didn't keep notes during the games so I will just post a list of my matchups.


R1: DnT 0-2 loss
R2: MBC 2-1 win
R3: OmniTell 2-0 win
R4: Elves 2-0 win
R5: Sneak Show 2-0 win
R6: Scapewish Nic Fit 2-1 win

Quarterfinals vs DeathBlade 2-0 win
Semis vs AnT 2-1 win
Finals vs Reanimator 1-2 loss

Props:
- Price of Progress for being an allstar!
- Good topdecks when I needed it! (usually for the last points of burn!)

Slops:
- Mulligan to hate only for it to be discarded
- Arriving late with a deck that was not yet "de-boarded" and sloppy shuffling during round1.

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Congratulations on the win! :) Pet deck can still make it!

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Originally Posted by fdiv_bug

Someone took 11th place at the Star City Games Open in Dallas yesterday with a True-Name Nemesis tempo build. The list is here. He was running the merfolk alongside Young Pyromancer and Delver, but no Goblin Guide.

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in a list like that what you think about this creature "team"

4 delver
4 guide
3 pyromancer
2 tnn
Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by diego1985

in a list like that what you think about this creature "team"

4 delver
4 guide
3 pyromancer
2 tnn

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I like it alot, that's a very well-balanced suite of creatures. With this I would probably play more "controlling" spells like Spell Pierce and less PoP.

Sideboard query: Recently I've been stopped in my tracks by damage preventers out of fringe decks (namely Solitary Confinement, Glacial Chasm, and Energy Field). Do you guys run any versatile sideboard cards to deal with these kind of permanents? One free turn usually does the trick so a bounce spell like Boomerang might work. Do you think things like Flaring Pain / Leyline of Punishment / Everlasting Torment are playable?

Rules question: Can True-Name Nemesis or Kor Firewalker be dealt damage by a red source when the damage can't be prevented?

Thanks for your help.

-Kendrick

Those creatures don't prevent damage, they simply don't get hit by it

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Those creatures don't prevent damage, they simply don't get hit by it

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OK, thanks Lemnear.

EDIT: This turns out to be false! See below.

@Lentini: Regarding your TNN/Kor Firewalker question.

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702.16e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player with protection is prevented.

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615.11. Some effects state that damage "can't be prevented." If unpreventable damage would be dealt, any applicable prevention effects are still applied to it. Those effects won't prevent any damage, but any additional effects they have will take place. Existing damage prevention shields won't be reduced by damage that can't be prevented.

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Yes, if damage cannot be prevented, untargetted damage will kill creatures with protection.

Additionally, cards like Leyline of Punishment stop cards like Energy Field, Solitary Confinement and Glacial Chasm.

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Originally Posted by whienot

@Lentini: Regarding your TNN/Kor Firewalker question.





Yes, if damage cannot be prevented, untargetted damage will kill creatures with protection.

Additionally, cards like Leyline of Punishment stop cards like Energy Field, Solitary Confinement and Glacial Chasm.

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Yep. This means you can kill a True-Name Nemesis blocking your 1/1 Elemental token if you cast Skullcrack before damage.

More info: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...vented-effects

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Originally Posted by whienot

Yes, if damage cannot be prevented, untargetted damage will kill creatures with protection.

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Wow, excellent. Now I can cover multiple issues with the same sideboard card!

I've been testing variants on this list on MWS over the past week or so, and I've been generally happy with it. It destroys combo and has pretty good matchups against grindy decks because of Lavamancer and Pyromancer. I haven't played a ton of the tempo mirror; the RUG matchup seems pretty decent but BUG is fairly awful since their threat density and removal package are both pretty hard to deal with. I tried a couple TNN creature setups, and they felt great when ahead but lousy when behind (mainly getting to 1UU against wastes/stifle hasn't been easy). I might have just had bad matchups during my TNN games though, since people in tournaments have been recently having relatively more success with TNN lists than other lists.

I'm thinking about trying 1-2 Misdirection (survive Abrupt Decays) or Price of Progress (burn them out faster) main to shore up the BGx matchups since I've been having a pretty hard time with them.

I'm torn about Clout of the Dominus. It's really cute with Nivmagus and solid on Delver but not that great on the other >50% of creatures

// Maindeck

1 [THS] Island (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [IN] Island (1)
1 [IN] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Volcanic Island

2 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
4 [RTR] Nivmagus Elemental
3 [M14] Young Pyromancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
3 [M12] Ponder
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [DDJ] Brainstorm
3 [AL] Force of Will
4 [PD2] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
1 [EVE] Clout of the Dominus

// Sideboard

SB: 2 [MMA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DDL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ROE] Forked Bolt
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [NPH] Vapor Snag

4/3 Shroud Flying is no joke to many decks. In my experience Clout on Delver was many times a GG.
When I drifted away from playing Clout, I went to 1 maindeck Divert, it's always a Spell Pierce to countermagic and you can get people really good with it when casted on Hymn or Decay.
Haven't been playing this deck for few weeks now, went to play UR Dreadstill, have been liking it much, it's very similar to UR Delver in a way.