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Has anyone tried Goblin Welder (instead of E-Tutor) on the side with the Painter/Stone sideboard plan? The only problem I see is that the deck runs minimal artifacts but LEDs can act as a Welder enabler.
I'm currently saving up for LEDs to complete the deck.
Why would you change your deck if it loses to gravehate anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
You make a fine point. I was thinking of using some of the Dredge elements to dig through. I guess that is flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
I think you look at this from the wrong angle. We don't play Leyline in the board because we expect a ton of graveyard decks, usually neither Dredge nor Reanimator exceed 10% of the field. However it's pretty neat to have the card in those matchups, particuallar against Reanimator ( in order to save enough time to kill them).Quote:
One thing I never understood... If you are expecting enough GY decks to warrant Leylines of your own in the SB, isn't everyone else also expecting them? Wouldn't you rather pick something else up and dodge the hate?
Sometimes you won't use the card once in a whole tourney and sometimes you'll end up using it in every single round ( you have my deepest condolence if this should ever happen).
Then again you could say the same thing about a card like Natures Claim.
No, we don't expect each deck to run Cage or Leyline, but it's the best way to fight those cards and for that reason it earns a spot in the sideboard.
Then why not memory's journey or anything that has both disruptive and anti-hate capabilities?Quote:
Originally Posted by Felidae
Welder in Dredge is an awful idea. It's entirely too situational, as is the Painter-Grindstone combination out of the sideboard. When you're running on minimal land resources and artifacts to abuse, you really shouldn't dilute the deck with narrow lines of play such as these.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Because it's counterable vs Reanimator, completely lackluster vs Dredge and a pretty shitty anti-hate card all rolled into one waste of SB space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
In a tournament setting, Leyline of the Void just gives you chances vs. the two decks you want to see the least, Reanimator and the mirror. I wouldn't go anywhere near an SCG without a set of them in the SB right now.
Memory's Journey is one of the absolute best cards in Dredge's sideboard right now. I even main-board one because of its multilateral functionality. Leyline of the Void isn't worth mutating your opening hands over, nor is it necessary to dilute the quality of your mulligans thereafter. It's just a stale answer that really does the player using it more harm than good, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I've always likened the card as being a tool for people who use it out of desperation and fear in losing to match-ups where just about any form of graveyard hate is acceptable, except the person playing it is willing to stake his or her end-game by weighing how good Leyline really is at times when it's all they've got. The difference with Leyline is that it is easily answerable against a prepared opponent. It's the one sideboard card I fear the least because it is already doing me a favor in helping me mutilate my opponents' hands to find it, if not retarding them at the same time. They need to find one out of the four they boarded in at the cost of ~one card per hand. I have to find one of the six ways I can answer it with eight filter spells - all at the cost of exactly one mana each.
A good Dredge player will always have a sideboard prepared for Leyline of the Void. Memory's Journey, however, can legitimately cripple an opposing Dredge player by hitting key cards at key times - more than once - and acts as a form of protection for your own cards.
This is actually 100% correct. Mirror match and Reanimator are both decks to beat. I usually don't advocate Leyline of the Void, due to it's lack of decks I side it in, but currently it is a fantastic sideboard choice. These are the two decks I want to see the least in a tourney and they are both everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Why not shore up our worst matchups?
Random question: Has anyone played the mirror and had both players drop Leyline of the Void turn zero? Just curious how that panned out.
The one that kept a hand with 3 narcs gets thereQuote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
I wouldn't say 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Again, it's a personal choice. Even taking into account meta-dependency, Leyline of the Void is not necessarily the best sideboard card as a graveyard-based detractor.
100% correct was indeed an exaggeration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I will say this. If there was ever a time to play Leyline of the Void, the time would be now.
Also, Leyline of the Void does fit better in the quadlaser sideboards because of the lack of dread returns and targets. Quadlaser has more free spaces in the sideboard to play a full playset.
A couple Memory's Journey isn't a consistent way to beat the Dredge and Reanimator match ups, and I've tried every hate card vs. Reanimator and never managed to get anywhere with Coffin Purge effects, let alone worse Coffin Purge effects, or Surgical Extractions. The most success I've had vs Reanimator has been with either Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void because they're uncounterable, and if I'm going to play a SB card for the express purpose of winning the mirror and trying to come back from an 0-1 vs Reanimator I want the most damaging SB card possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Obviously you don't play like a dumbass and mulligan into oblivion just because you have Leyline of the Void in your deck, and as far as "destroying" the SB goes it's really a question of whether or not you're playing other cute but unnecessary shit like Dread Return, DR Targets, Firestorm etc. or actually addressing your match ups.
At the end of the day, Dredge's worst match ups are actually against the other graveyard decks, the mirror, Reanimator, Lands etc. and vs. Reanimator you really need to steal a game back from them G2 or lose the match. Memory's Journey isn't really going to seal the deal vs. them, so it's a waste of space IMO.
The player with more lands has a huge advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
The double Leyline Mirror happens quite often around here:P
As long as you don't have an answer to leyline,and the other guy doesn't have one, it is a LOT like limited. Hint: Stinkweed Imp= MVP
I think it's a bit far-fetched to be calling Memory's Journey a "worse" Coffin Purge when Parcher and I have extensively tested and used it to a great deal of success in sanctioned play. Leyline of the Void is simply a liability that I don't want affecting my opening hands with, even if it is "uncounterable." Dredge can shred an opponent's hand with Therapies and Reanimator shouldn't have any issues stopping a Leyline of the Void with Show and Tell or Echoing Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Leyline of the Void is only the most "damaging sideboard card possible" in the event your hand is solid and you have one in your starting hand. Otherwise, it's garbage and pointless to take up useful slots where it dummies as a dead dredge otherwise.
Faerie Macabre is fine, that I agree with.
You address your match-ups with graveyard hate. If you run Leyline of the Void, you are theoretically putting yourself in a position where weighing the strength of a hand without it is better than a weaker hand with it. That is going to affect your mulligan strategy, whether it's a "dumbass" line of play or not. You inherit that cost when you play it, and it's a price you pay when you decide to keep your hand or not.Quote:
Obviously you don't play like a dumbass and mulligan into oblivion just because you have Leyline of the Void in your deck, and as far as "destroying" the SB goes it's really a question of whether or not you're playing other cute but unnecessary shit like Dread Return, DR Targets, Firestorm etc. or actually addressing your match ups.
Leyline isn't necessarily going to seal the deal versus them either, but at least I can legitimately cast Journey twice if I need to.Quote:
At the end of the day, Dredge's worst match ups are actually against the other graveyard decks, the mirror, Reanimator, Lands etc. and vs. Reanimator you really need to steal a game back from them G2 or lose the match. Memory's Journey isn't really going to seal the deal vs. them, so it's a waste of space IMO.
Also, LED Dredge (practically) blows Lands out of the water, so I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.
@ Final Fortune
Honest question, this may sound rude but really isn't meant to be. Have you played a large number of post board games with Memory's journey vs Dredge and Reanimator? I don't know if I can honestly say I have, but roughly 50 games each postboard in testing. Against dredge it seemed really unfair (which I like). It obviously was much better on the play but the blowouts it could lead to were what I look for in a sideboard card. It also acts as protection for my bridges if they yard the first ichorid. As far as against reanimator it was decent. You really want to be rolling your therapy's so you can cripple them into a postion where it's really good. Otherwise it's lackluster but that means your deck isn't performing in the first place?
As far as Quadlazer and Leyline of the void, isn't it counter intuitive to put 4 in your deck when it's supposed to be all about consistency? You are sacrificing 4 consistent cards for 4 that you will either muligan to because the other cards in your hand weren't strong enough or you will never cast if your hand is strong. I guess what I've been struggling with is instead of 4 leyline would it be better to run a split of Memory's Journey and Coffin Purge? This way you are still on your game plan without the sideways aggressive mulligans? I'm just coming back to dredge and just started gauntlet testing it again so these are just issues I've ran into in the past couple weeks. I've glossed over the thread but haven't completely read pages 15ish to 40. I walked in around 40. If these issues have been discussed in detail I apologize.
Edit: Clarification on on using Journey on opposing players ichorid if it's the first one to yard.
Memory's Journey vs Coffin Purge is a no brainer. Memory's Journey is better because it hits three cards and shuffles cards back to library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woe
As for Leyline of the Void. If you have four open slots in your sideboard for graveyard hate I recommend LotV over Memory's Journey. If you have less than four slots in sideboard than of course use Memory's Journey.
LotV can be echoing truthed by Reanimator, but you can still get two turns ahead of them and have access to Cabal Therapy(s) to knock out echoing truth. As for Show and Tell back up plan, the Reanimator player needs to have Show and Tell+ Creature in hand. It is conditional that can disrupted via Cabal Therapy and is actually kind of slow. They aren't using Petals and Tombs to bust out Show and Tell. Also, Reanimator plays a very minimal amount of lands which means them getting stuck on two lands is very likely.
Against dredge which would you rather have in your opener LotV or Memory's Journey? Which would you rather your opponent have in his opener? Be honest here.
An advantage Memory Journey does have is versatility. It can be used against anything from Painter's Stone to High Tide. It also does something against Surgical Extraction. LotV is only good against the mirror and Reanimator(which are everywhere at the moment).
LotV can fit easier into Quadlaser because it doesn't fill it's sideboard with Dread Return targets saving 2-3 spots there. Dread Return targets are possibly win more cards, this is still questionable. As for finding room to side them in, cut anything to make room games 2 & 3! LotV can win as soon as you open a seven with it. Even if it buys you only one or two turns this is a huge jump start against the opponent. Against the mirror and Reanimator being ahead a couple turns quite often translates into winning before your opponent.
Yes, I've used both Memory's Journey and Coffin Purge extensively in testing, my problem with Memory's Journey is that even tho' it's better vs Dredge it's worse vs. Reanimator because you can't support 1U as easily as you can B to cast it from your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woe
I've just found 4 Leyline of the Void to be more effective than ~2 Memory's Journey vs Reanimator and Dredge, Show&Tell isn't really an option vs. us because we can put a Golgari Grave Troll into play and Dredge has to find the Chain of Vapor or lose the game. A lot of Reanimator and Dredge players also don't know whether or not they should or they shouldn't SB in bounce for game 2, and if they don't you can just take a game off of them for free.
All I know is if you play Leyline of the Void and your opponent plays Memories Journey than you win the mirror, and 2 Memories Journey isn't enough to have even an outside chance vs Reanimator.
Leyline is definitely a legit SB choice, people talk a lot of shit about it but it pretty much does everything I could ask for in the match ups I REALLY don't want to have to play fairly against. I can tolerate a match vs Storm, but the mirror and Reanimator are just painfully fucking stupid wastes of time.
I like how you reason players being bad as a huge plus for Leyline^^