[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

I am the player that was on the meadery a few times with BUGfit. The last four weeks I have went 4-0, 2-1-1, and twice 3-0 and draw the last round. The way the price works out many people end up drawing the last round.

2 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
2 creeping tarpit
2 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta
2 island
2 swamp
2 forest

4 veteran explorer
2 baleful strix
2 snapcaster mage
2 thragtusk
2 tasigur, the golden fang

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculpter
2 liliana, of the veil
3 pernicious deed
3 abrupt decay
2 dig through time



My sb changes. I ran 2 back to basics last week because I saw tons of 12 post and lands bros around but I dont like the card generally. I brough tit in against bug delver but probably wouldnt in the future. Otherwise my sb is usually


2 notion thief
2 surgical extraction
2 thoughtsieze
2 negate
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze



With a different flux of cards depending on the night. So things like Glen elendra, diabolic edict, maelstrom pulse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pettdan

I've been playing Punishing Fit lately, going I think 9-2-1 in total in three local tournaments (30-50 players, varied meta) and 3-4 in a slightly larger one (I'll blame it on heavy mulliganing).

I'm basically playing Bobman's list (most lists are quite similar) changing carpets in board to gaddock/cont.priest/canonist and 1 savannah in the main. Also boarding Leyline of the Void for gy hate and liking it - as a bonus it stops DTT's, hurts 2/3 threats in RUG uncounterably, is good vs Goyfs, KotR's, Deathrites, P.Fires etc. And also often undiscardable, unabrupt decayable. My other tweaks are running maindeck 4 Liliana, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Recurring N and 1 Acidic Slime.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with my 15th sideboard slot and would want something vs Cloudpost and Marit Lage. Any tips?

I have 1 Blood Moon already in the board against these two strategies and possibly should add a second copy. I'm also considering a single Pithing Needle for Stage vs Marit Lage decks (but Lands, Maverick and Loam Pox being the main Lage decks around can all answer it easily, I think) or pithing for Expedition Map(?) vs Cloudpost. Also considering and leaning towards a third Slaughter Games for Primeval Titan vs Cloudpost or Loam/KotR/Crop Rotation vs Lage Decks. The latter use seems somewhat lackluster but Games comes in vs Miracles and combo decks too and seems very valuable there.

I did consider Ruination, From the Ashes and Sowing Salt too... Not too different from Blood Moon.

Actually the Slime is partly there for its assumed relevance vs Cloudposts and Dark Depths, especially coupled with Recurring N. It may rarely occur but Slime can be tutored for so it's basically a question of topping for the RN.

For reference here is the current sb:
2 Slaughter Games
2 Krosan Grip
2 REB
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Blood Moon

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Good to hear Punishing Fit still gets some gametime.

Marit Lage and Cloudpost decks are problematic for PFire NicFit. Mostly any deck that gets bigger thru ramping is though. Blood Moon can work wonders, but it does affect our own wanky manabase. Yes, we do run a ton of basics. It might work, but i feel it is narrow and can work against us.

Currently i am packing a single Pithing Needle and a single Diabolic Edict in the board against Marit Lage.dec. I don't know if it is enough, really missing Wasteland here. Good thing about both Peedle as Edict is that they work against other cards/decks aswell like Jace, Ugin or Sneak/Show or Reanimate in general.

Ruination and mass landdestruction might be O K, but then i feel that the deck would need at least a single Life from the Loam (and Eternal Witness / Volrath's Stronghold).

Adding white to JUND seems appealling, but i feel that it makes the manabase more shaky. I am currently not having to many problems with the JUND manabase, but i think it might gonna make it so shaky that it cost us games. And winning games is so tight already. Also the missers Priest and Canonist not being green makes them too random i think.

A. Slime is appealling, but his CMC might make it to slow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Good to hear Punishing Fit still gets some gametime.

Marit Lage and Cloudpost decks are problematic for PFire NicFit. Mostly any deck that gets bigger thru ramping is though. Blood Moon can work wonders, but it does affect our own wanky manabase. Yes, we do run a ton of basics. It might work, but i feel it is narrow and can work against us.

Currently i am packing a single Pithing Needle and a single Diabolic Edict in the board against Marit Lage.dec. I don't know if it is enough, really missing Wasteland here. Good thing about both Peedle as Edict is that they work against other cards/decks aswell like Jace, Ugin or Sneak/Show or Reanimate in general.

Ruination and mass landdestruction might be O K, but then i feel that the deck would need at least a single Life from the Loam (and Eternal Witness / Volrath's Stronghold).

Adding white to JUND seems appealling, but i feel that it makes the manabase more shaky. I am currently not having to many problems with the JUND manabase, but i think it might gonna make it so shaky that it cost us games. And winning games is so tight already. Also the missers Priest and Canonist not being green makes them too random i think.

A. Slime is appealling, but his CMC might make it to slow.

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If you refer back to the Primer first page, my Punishing list is including 2 edict MD.
You don't need a definitive answer to Marit Lage shenanigans G1. Usually edict will buy enough time to use Lili's ultimate to even buy more time to eventually kill your opponent before he gets to recover his whole mana base.

Obviously, this MU become better post board.

Funniest thing is that the MD Edicts were not much for fighting back against Marit Lage.decks but for improving by a fair margin matchups like S&S and Infest.

The thing is Slaughter Games and REB are REALLY REALLY good against Miracles and Omni, which are poised to be the two menaces. We don't care too much about the Stoneblade and Delver decks that will try to beat it, since we beat the crap out of those decks without problem (but again, REB makes it even easier). However, as I've said, Rhino and Sigarda are much better threats. We can talk about Huntmaster this and that, but Rhino-town gets the job done. This is why I wanted to test the Jund splash white build. Fires is also very good against all the little critters decks.

If I can't get the Jund+W build together and running smoothly for Prague/Lille, I'll run Junk at Prague and see how it goes.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

The thing is Slaughter Games and REB are REALLY REALLY good against Miracles and Omni, which are poised to be the two menaces. We don't care too much about the Stoneblade and Delver decks that will try to beat it, since we beat the crap out of those decks without problem (but again, REB makes it even easier). However, as I've said, Rhino and Sigarda are much better threats. We can talk about Huntmaster this and that, but Rhino-town gets the job done. This is why I wanted to test the Jund splash white build. Fires is also very good against all the little critters decks.

If I can't get the Jund+W build together and running smoothly for Prague/Lille, I'll run Junk at Prague and see how it goes.

-Matt

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You didn't get my point or you didn't read carefully.

I'm not questioning the 4 rhino thing. I'm questioning the Thrun's slot in your 4 color Fit.
Both have their pros and cons and it could only be a meta thing.
Overall, I think Mr Hunt has a light advantage over Mr Thrun:
- better synergy with top
- better synergy with cabal therapy
- better synergy with recurring nightmare
- worse on the defensive aspect of the deck
- better on the offensive aspect of the deck
- easier to cast (RG against GG)
- GSZ for Hunt > GSZ for Thrun
- Drawing Hunt < Drawing Thrun

Even if we should value more the defensive aspect of Thrun as we are a control deck, I want to be sure we explore every option given to us.

I have played quite a few games with your 4 Color Fit suggestions making my own changes, here are some few other remarks:

1) Diabolic Intent -> I cannot draw any conclusion about the card but my gut feeling is that after 30 games (at least as I didn't count them all) I'm not THAT happy to draw it. Eventually, it screwed me more than it helped me. Sure the following shenanigan "sac a vet or a rhino, fetch RN & start looping" is nice and all, but the main scenario was a board with only 1 creature on my side with me trying to crawl back into the game and in this particular scenario you don't expose yourself by sac'ing your only threat/defense.

2) 23 lands is too many. IMHO, the phyrexian tower is not needed at all. But 22 was too fragile while keeping the Stronghold. I think 22 is the perfect number but without the two towers. PF & RN are enough as recurring tools.

3) a 6th basic mana source seems to be mandatory. Several games I wish I had a 6th basic to fetch for with late dying explorers. As a matter of fact, I would pick a plains.

4) I miss some proactive spells @ CMC = 3. I might try to include a couple of Liliana in the deck (max 2). But I still think this might be a bad idea as a 4 color GSZ deck shouldn't include any double color requirement in its spells except a few green creature. Anyway, too many times, I had the feeling that I was not taking advantage of my T1 land + DRS & T2 land + nothing...
The other option is to cut maelstrom pulse and include a couple of vindicate.

5) As expected, Mr Hunt did his duty but sometimes I wish I had also Mr Thrun. I'll be cutting a witness for him and give it a shot.

Here is the updated MD list:
11 white sources, 12 red, 14 black and 15 green. If the SB turns out to be whiter than redder, I guess the mana base would have to be adjusted again.


3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Punishing Fire
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Swamp


Happy to discuss.

Yeah, I totally misread. I thought you were thinking Huntmaster OVER Rhino, not Thrun, I apologize.

Yeah, I think in 4C, Intent might be worse, but it does fetch pieces of the combo, but it might be not relevant if our density is high enough.

Your list looks great. I'll proxy it up and run with it.

Sideboard, I'm thinking:

3 REB
2 Slaughter Games
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm

yeah love that 4c list.. now i need to buy some foil vindicates to try it out ;x

Right now I have been thinking about going back to the pfire version for the sole fact my meta is ALOT of combo.. and alot of omni.. i need those rebs... and would love slaughter games back.

be nice if this worked as an inbetween..

at the same time i love that previous slaughter games MD list

Did that titania/kotr list ever emerge im sold on my rhino list for now and want to do so brewing so its that or a walker list. Id really like to try rector + doubling season with the walkers lili primal hunter and vraska seem great with rector doubling season and intent. Just not sure if its worth buying the playset of rectors. Any experience going this route anyone?

Yeah I think I'll be re-buying therapies, deeds, and vindicates on MTGO tonight myself to give it a spin. It's looking really tight for a 4 color build.

Great content, I need to read this thread more.

Ive been thinking of a 4c deck myself... ive been running a 3 groove jund list that been working really good. but not sure how good a three of groove is in a deck without primeval titan...

anyway this is what ive been thinking about (iv always been a casual player and recently started legacy so excuse me if there are very many gaps in my
deck. but thats why i need you isnt it? ;)

I know DRS is good but i most of the time prefer to gsz after a veteran explorer if need mana rather then drs...

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Broodmate Dragon

1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain/ or phrexian tower
1 Plains

Gazoline, I think you're undervaluing Top. It's amazing. Run at least 3, no exceptions. I ran 4, but I was always seeing double. 3 has been nice.

The sole reason I'm running more DRS in the 4 colour build is that Veteran accelerates, but doesn't necessarily colourfix the way Shaman can. Shaman is making mana as long as lands are in graveyards. Vet has to die in a specific way to get on colour so to marry the two, I'm running the 3/3 split. Perhaps it's incorrect, but testing will tell.

Siege Rhino is VERY good, and he's the reason to run white (along with hate and Path, but you know what I mean). What's y'alls thoughts on Vindicate vs. Pulse? Is it worth being able to destroy lands if we're also doing the accelerating? Feels weird, at least to me.

Thoughts?

-Matt

Thanks for the quick reply!

Never really got the hang of the top. most of the time i felt like if my best play was going for the top then i was most of the time already screwed. (but i gotta admit a top for pernicous deed and kill whole opponent table was fun!) but i might just be an amatuer when it comes to using it aswell ^^

Hmm true drs brings more stability 3/3 might be a better way to go in a 4c version. I really love vindicate not only for landdestruction but also for planeswalkers that ive experienced can be a bitch to take care of sometimes as a nicfit deck.

i liked Decimate alot. opponents wasnt prepared for it. against DnT it was a real killer. but sorcery n 4mana is a bit much most of the time.

Pulse and deed fill similar roles where as vindicate can remove pesky tar pits and other lands that can be obstacles like tabernacle glacial chasm and karakas. Vindicate is probably right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Siege Rhino is VERY good, and he's the reason to run white (along with hate and Path, but you know what I mean). What's y'alls thoughts on Vindicate vs. Pulse? Is it worth being able to destroy lands if we're also doing the accelerating? Feels weird, at least to me.

Thoughts?

-Matt

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Pulse

I've been pondering a lot lately whether vindicate brings some added value instead of Pulse.

I guess you might be right. The ability to "hit" lands might not be what we are looking for.
Furthermore, I might have overlooked the "Pulse" thing being able to hit multiple permanents with the same name on the battlefield. It does not happen repeatedly but when it does, it feels very good.

From my testing such a case didn't show up yet. Vindicate has been what Pulse would have been except against 12 post where I was able to sneak a win through a vindicate "flashbacked" with the help of Witness.
Corner case that is...

Thus to draw sort of a conclusion, I would say that if your meta is filled with 12 post, Infest and random rogue decks using "utility lands", vindicate should be a better choice over say Pulse.
If not, Pulse is the way to go as being able to hit a double delver or some token strategy + being more "in color" with the core deck will always be better.

3 CMC

If we don't use vindicate at all.
I feel we are still missing proactive stuff @ CMC = 3 because there is no chance Pulse will ever be a proactive spell...

My feeling is the same with Deed. It is a reactive spell that can however be played as a proactive one against the proper opponent (deck with no decay or U/W control).

And I'm sure I'm not the only one being reluctant to play a deed on an open field:
- without mana to crack it
- or an empty board
just to see it "decayed" at EOT or during the following turn.

I might be wrong. But, usually I only play deed when I can "insta" crack it to get some value. Unless I'm pushed back so far that it is my only way out if there is one left...

Anyway, the deck feels low on the CMC = 3 proactive side and I'm trying to fix that.

Liliana

As already stated, Liliana is an "all-star" in traditional Jund Fit list. She might be the best of both Pulse & Vindicate worlds:
1) Her ultimate, although very slow to get to, can hit lands
2) She brings virtual CA back into the deck (which pleases me) and she does not die to Deed (unlike Sylvan Library)
3) She might be a bit better as a reactive spell (as she guarantees a 2 for 1) than a proactive one but I don't bother slamming her in as fast as I can do
4) We play PF.
5) She slows the game's path down which is what a control deck should be aiming for
5) BUT she costs BB...

Hymn to Tourach / Sylvan Library

If Liliana emphasis more the defensive aspect of the deck, we can also explore some more offensive method:

HTT might not be what we are looking for but until we test it, one can never say "never". BB on T2 is pretty darn tough to get and can screw you more than we might think... But well it has to be mentioned. We might be entering too much in the Rock territory without the proper tools to maintain (wasteland to name it) but I had quite a few games where I was slamming threats after threats since T3 until my opponent ran out of answers (counterspell) and the game could have been even faster with a HTT on T2.

What I also like with HTT is that this spell is good against almost any MU including Combo ones. No need to mention that we are pretty naked G1 against most combo deck and this spell can be a haymaker.

SL is kinda way slower than HTT. It is a nonbo with Deed but as we are playing both we should be able to get value from both spells without that much a nuisance. SL might be far easier for us to play because of its color cost. We all know the SL "in & out":
- the second SL you draw is bad (unless you had to deed away the first one) but if we play it, 2 copies feels like the perfect number
- SL is slow
- SL cost life and might be a bad sensei most of the time if our HP are under pressure
- But SL + Rhino + Hunt is a great synergy
- A unanswered SL on T2 against a fair deck is usually game


Anyway, I will test the three of them and come back to you. Lili might have my preference.

Any idea what to cut to include at least 2 copies of each if we keep a one-of "Pulse" ?

Cheers,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Pulse and deed fill similar roles where as vindicate can remove pesky tar pits and other lands that can be obstacles like tabernacle glacial chasm and karakas. Vindicate is probably right.

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This is why I ran Vindicate as a 1-of in my white lists for a looooong time. I eventually devalued the removal package slightly and ended up cutting it for space, but the Vindicate was always good to me for exactly this reason. It also gives us SOMETHING to do vs 12post et al.

I mean, I'm looking for ANY excuse to dust off my Vindicates, but recall that we're Jund + White, and I don't want to have to fetch white until the last possible moment. I'm sure we'll have mana with DRS and such, but you get where I'm going. Maybe I'm wrong on the mana, but we'll see

Pulse has been magical in hitting multiple permanents before. I don't think Vindicate does more work against 12-Post, at least, not enough to win us that matchup. By god it's awful.

Ralf does make some good points. I liked the 1-of Sylvan in my Junk list, and I'm playing 2 in regular Jund. The card wins games on its own.

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
15

3 Punishing Fire
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate (or 2 Liliana, or 1 Pulse 1 Vindicate)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
23

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Swamp
22

I definitely think this is a good place to start, but if we start cutting Rhinos and such for Liliana/Sylvans, we're going to be in a heap of trouble and dilute what we're trying to do. Since we're only at 60, the obvious :cool: choice to just jam in Sylvan. In my Junk build, many times I'm going up to 24-28 life and then just ancestral recalling turn after turn. It's not a bad card, it's on colour, etc. and it helps us find more stuff. Plus, it is card selection and advantage, not just selection like with Top.

I think for the thread going forward, let's try to test this build. We know Jund and Junk are fine builds and likely only need tuning, so I think we need to see if this works in principle and go from there. Lille and Prague Eternal are coming up, so I'd love for us to share results before then.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Swamp
22

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That manabase.. missing out on the Two Towers AND this lacks red sources to effectively grind out games with PFire. At least 3 red sources outside of Groves are required. I would cut white sources for red. Plus why depend on white mana to use cards like Vindicate. I think the real power comes from a JUND core with some powerhouses like Rhino, Teeg, Sigarda, etc. but holding those to a minimum seems best to me.

I suppose i would go for:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

The single plains and mountain are important as it can be fetched with Veteran Explorer. This means you can color fix your hand without (reduced) risk of Wasteland. Wooded Foothills instead of Bloodstained, because now you can get every dual with all the fetches you require to find. Also i would probably go for a 4/2 split between Veteran and DRS, since color fixing is SOOO important. I found that DRS does improve your ability to ramp, but VetEx is more reliable and causes blowouts more often then DRS. White sources are much less important to have, since all the goodstuff can be found with GSZ to.

I would probably also cut a Siege Rhino and a Vindicate for 2x Liliana of the Veil and swap the remaining Vindicate for a Pulse. Pulse has been very important in some matches. Multiple Pithing Needles or Angel tokens. The card has win me in situations where Vindicate would not have. Offcourse it would be the only way to remove annoying lands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

That manabase.. missing out on the Two Towers AND this lacks red sources to effectively grind out games with PFire. At least 3 red sources...

I suppose i would go for:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
.

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Since vindicate is gone. I should have mentioned that the savannah must be cut in favor of a taiga.

And no playing with only 12 black sources is dangerous. Because, most likely postboard, your best spell would need red & black.

Being able to fetch for scrubland + taiga against a deck with no wasteland is the best configuration you could get.

I would also add that two red sources are likely to be enough as we are not a PF build in its core. Killing someone with PF would still be possible just not as fast as a True Jund Fit build.

More to come later as I will be able to make a lot of tests this week end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

I would also add that two red sources are likely to be enough as we are not a PF build in its core. Killing someone with PF would still be possible just not as fast as a True Jund Fit build.

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Looking at it this way i could probably say that it is safe to cut down Grove to 3 and PFire to 2.

Also i would like to see how a miser Life from the Loam and Volrath's Stronghold (along with Eternal Witness) would perform in a list like this. Diabolic Intent should be included aswell in that case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Since vindicate is gone. I should have mentioned that the savannah must be cut in favor of a taiga.

And no playing with only 12 black sources is dangerous. Because, most likely postboard, your best spell would need red & black.

Being able to fetch for scrubland + taiga against a deck with no wasteland is the best configuration you could get.

I would also add that two red sources are likely to be enough as we are not a PF build in its core. Killing someone with PF would still be possible just not as fast as a True Jund Fit build.

More to come later as I will be able to make a lot of tests this week end.

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Adding a Taiga is definitely something I wanted after playing a few matches last night. If I drop the vindicates I definitely want to try that out, I have a tough time resisting that card though.

I had a lot of fun playing the deck and out of 3 matches I ended 2 games with looped rhinos in stalled out boards courtesy of the recurring nightmare. That's so fun when you get to the late game and can trigger rhino 2-3 times a turn. I was worried that rhino would be hard to cast but I didn't have any trouble casting him on time in my first few matches. Beat a UWR dig-blade deck and a grixis pyromancer deck with probe and therapy, and lost to ANT in 2 games when I couldn't mulligan into any of the action in Matt's example board he posted. Overall pretty normal nic fit experience except for my throw away game 2 versus ANT. It played a lot like normal punishing fit so I was very comfortable from the get-go.