[Deck] Turbo Depths

Scrubbed out of the Legacy challenge today.

R1: BUG Delver (malimujo build?)
G1 probably played too aggressively with my Crop Rotation. both games my opponent played too aggressively with their Wasteland and got massively rewarded by good topdecks or Brainstorms.
G2 was silly variance

R2: UR Delver 2-0

R3: Miracles 1-2
G1 mull to 5
G2 won with Chalice on 1 topdeck on turn ~4
G3 facing Tundra pass opener, I chose to play Map instead of a discard spell. I probably should have cast the discard spell. He plays Counterbalance and blind flips Top next turn.

R4 Belcher
G1 I didn't have a discard spell in my opener. This decides the match because I win G2 on the play and lose G3 on the draw.

Split the Finals of the Legacy 2K in Elmira and picked up a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Details to follow.

Grats on the 5-0 Negator. Still listed in the wrong place haha.

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

Grats on the 5-0 Negator. Still listed in the wrong place haha.

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Thanks! It's been happening to a bunch of decks recently for whatever reason. It must be a sign to try a different deck.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

Split the Finals of the Legacy 2K in Elmira and picked up a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Details to follow.

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Congrats! That is a pretty sweet prize. Looking forward to the details.

Thanks again, Negator.

The tournament had 39 players (partly lower due to the GP and impending storms), so it was six rounds of action with a very healthy mix of Legacy's best decks. The concentration of Legacy players at Mythic is very strong, so I knew I had to make sure the list was tightened for this event.

For reference, here was the list I ran:

// Turbo Depths

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
3 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle

// 8 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library

// 7 Instant
4 Crop Rotation
3 Not of This World

// 23 Land
4 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

// 14 Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance

// 5 Enchantment
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 2 Steely Resolve

// 3 Instant
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Lost Legacy

Most of the list is stock, as you can tell. I wanted to try a few things out in the sideboard and see how they worked. I just haven't run into Miracles much lately, just a lot of U/x midrange and BUG decks. In this event, the trend continued. Here were the match-ups and results:

R1: vs. Mono White Stax [W: 2-0]
R2: vs. Grixis Delver [L: 1-2]
R3: vs. Shardless BUG [W: 2-0]
R4: vs. Storm [I.D. with a friend]
R5: vs. Grixis [W: 2-1]
R6: vs. Shardless BUG [W: 2-0]
T8: vs. U/w/r StoneBlade [W: 2-0]
T4: vs. Colorless Eldrazi [W: 2-1]
T2: vs. Colorless Eldrazi [I.D.]

Here are some notes from the event that correspond to the list and cards I played and interactions that are worth mentioning:

*Lost Legacy would have been much better against decks like Miracles and Lands, but I didn't run into them in this event - even though they were omnipresent. However, Lost Legacy flat-out won me game two in my T8 match against StoneBlade, where he tapped out with Jace and had no Force in hand. I played Lost Legacy and sucked out the Swords to Plowshares in his deck. He had no other answers in his deck to a 20/20 besides a single Needle, and I had the combo on board anyhow with Stage. He uses Jace during his next turn to dig and when he last-ditch efforts a Needle - I make a 20/20 and seal it. I really like Lost Legacy and still think it holds more weight in the grindy match-ups over Surgical, where you have to wait for a card to hit the bin to get the other copies. And against decks that run Snapcaster, it gets a little worse in that regard. I just think if you're trying to take the most problematic cards out, the versatility of Lost Legacy - in this deck, especially - seems pretty good.

*Nether Void was non-existent throughout the day. It also has been over the last few weeks, so I wasn't totally sold on its utility because I never really brought it in. However, after procuring a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, you can bet that will find its way into this flex slot. That card would have been lights-out a few times during the day, especially against Grixis and Shardless.

*I faced Chalice decks a few times during the day, but Chalice never hit the board. It doesn't necessarily win the game outright; as you know the deck can sometimes just land-drop itself into a 20/20 or tutor its way into the combo. Chalice decks typically have a hard time with Marit Lage when it lands, so it's sometimes hand and play-draw dependent.

*My only loss in the Swiss was to Grixis, and that was on the combo turn when my opponent drew into Surgical Extraction for the turn with nothing else but lands in hand. He had Wasteland out and hit my Stage before I could play Depths from my hand. I mean, with Hexmage I still was in business, but I couldn't find it in time before he was able to stick a clock and roll with it. He was sweating bullets, but that Surgical was huge right there.

*Steely Resolve came in once in the T8 match, but never hit play. Most of my opponents during the day just didn't have Swords to Plowshares in their deck. In that T8 match in game one, I was able to destroy his hand with three discard spells in succession to setup the combo. Duress after all these years is still a baller.

*I never saw any advantages over the course of the day of going with fetches and Bayou over the Marshes and Wastes. The payment of a life here and there never really mattered in the context of those games. I surprised a few opponents when I played these, and it was a strategical choice (obviously) as opposed to monetary to combat Submerge. I can see the advantages of playing Bayou, and I'm sure it's fine, but in a deck like this that already has a boatload of land-tutoring ability I just don't see the merit of opening yourself up to that hate. It's not like Grixis isn't still one of the best decks in the format, and a lot of lists do run one or two Submerge still in the board. Until that ship sails, I'll roll with these.

Hey All,

Be recently playing this deck because Lands is in a pretty bad position right now with all the surgical extractions running around and the fact that D&T is the most popular deck in the Los Angeles Meta. As I plan on playing Hex Depths, Turbo Depths, Dark Depths (whatever this deck is called) at GP Vegas, I just recently bought the list below on MTGO and running pretty hot. Played in 5 leagues over the weekend and ran 3-2 three times, 4-1 once and 5-0 once. I chalk up some of my losses because I am still learning the deck and how to properly use MTGO (I.E. wasn't aware I was supposed to click on the card in the graveyard when surgical extracting even though I targeted when casting the spell, I also totally kept a dark depths and not the thespian stage first time I combo-d because I thought I was selecting which "dark depths" to sac not keep). Anyways I am pretty happy with where the list is at. My MTGO list mirror exactly what I have IRL. Although, I'm sure things will change once the Meta shifts as we get closer to the GP. I have also been streaming the deck the past few weeks if you would like to check it out.

Railbird Gaming Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6P...dH3BJj-XSdEJkg

Railbird Gaming Twitch - https://www.twitch.tv/railbirdgaming

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/571197#online

2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Shizo's, Death's Storehouse
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Crop Rotation
4 Duress
2 Into the North
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize

4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
2 Lost Legacy
1 Pithing Needle
2 Steely Resolve
3 Surgical Extraction
1 the Tabernacle, at Pendrell Vale
1 Toxic Deluge

My Majority of my list I got from Waynebrain on MTGO. However, some changes are as follows:

-1 Into the North, +1 Sylvan Scrying: Felt that Sylvan Scrying is better in most cases, even though the land doesn't hit the battlefield. Into the North gets cut in most sideboard matches as I feel its the weakest tutor. However, there is something to say about having an auto-cut going into post boards that is nice for a deck to have. Usually on the play i try to keep them in to keep the speed up on the deck.

Adding in fetchlands vs Blooming Marsh and more Bayous: My feeling on this is that having fetch lands is super important for blood moon decks. Having basics to rely on future Abrupt Decay won me 2 matchups against Mono-red sneak attack and goblin stompy, which are IMO, horrible matchups. Also, having Sylvan Library mainboard is sooo much better with fetchlands.

Lost Legacy - Has been such a clutch card. Great against Show and Tell, Storm, Miracles - really any combo deck that relys on one card exclusively. For Miracles it's terminus.

Toxic Deluge/Tabernacle - In Los Angeles, Death and Taxes and Elves are super popular deck choices. So having both of these is great at slowing them down. I also have a dude in my testing group that plays Goblins so Tabernacle is great against him. Toxic Deluge is super clutch against infect.

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Adding in fetchlands vs Blooming Marsh and more Bayous: My feeling on this is that having fetch lands is super important for blood moon decks. Having basics to rely on future Abrupt Decay won me 2 matchups against Mono-red sneak attack and goblin stompy, which are IMO, horrible matchups. Also, having Sylvan Library mainboard is sooo much better with fetchlands.

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That is a good point...being able to fetch out basics to combat Wasteland and Blood Moon/Magus seems way more relevant than dodging the 1-2 Submerges total that might exist in the entire tournament.

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Originally Posted by DudeItsCorey

-1 Into the North, +1 Sylvan Scrying: Felt that Sylvan Scrying is better in most cases, even though the land doesn't hit the battlefield. Into the North gets cut in most sideboard matches as I feel its the weakest tutor. However, there is something to say about having an auto-cut going into post boards that is nice for a deck to have. Usually on the play i try to keep them in to keep the speed up on the deck.

Adding in fetchlands vs Blooming Marsh and more Bayous: My feeling on this is that having fetch lands is super important for blood moon decks. Having basics to rely on future Abrupt Decay won me 2 matchups against Mono-red sneak attack and goblin stompy, which are IMO, horrible matchups. Also, having Sylvan Library mainboard is sooo much better with fetchlands.

Lost Legacy - Has been such a clutch card. Great against Show and Tell, Storm, Miracles - really any combo deck that relys on one card exclusively. For Miracles it's terminus.

Toxic Deluge/Tabernacle - In Los Angeles, Death and Taxes and Elves are super popular deck choices. So having both of these is great at slowing them down. I also have a dude in my testing group that plays Goblins so Tabernacle is great against him. Toxic Deluge is super clutch against infect.

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I've been coming to the same conclusions about a lot of the stuff you just touched on.

Into the north is the worst tutor in the deck and I'm going to experiment with cutting it for 2x sylvan library and moving the 4th needle into the main this week. The narrowness of which lands it can tutor has been frustrating on several occasions. More often than not, I end up using it to find dark depths and that's not a play i care for very much unless I'm ready to make a token that same turn or i'm playing against an opponenet that i know does not play wasteland.

This also makes the decision to play fetches a logical conclusion that i totally agree with.

The lost legacies I've been dying to test but no one in my meta plays miracles or death & taxes. I know i want this type of effect but I'm undecided on whether or not to play Lost Legacy or Sadistic Sacrament. BBB isn't always easy to cast, you don't get to look at the opponent's hand, and you can't hit cards that hit the graveyard. On the plus side, you can exile karakas, or remove something like 2x bloodmoon 1x from the ashes or whatever absurd hate cards they bring in against you.

The tabernacle is pretty interesting and its been talked about here but i haven't seen many tournament reports/results with it in the 75. It does exactly what you expect against fair, disruptive creatures matchups, but if it hasn't already been discussed/overanalyzed i think its a particularly interesting card against Storm. They may favor the empty the warrens line against you because of your speed and disruption. It also covers empty the warrens if you name Tendrils of Agony with Lost Legacy and your opponent hasn't scooped yet.

Overall, I really like where you're going with your list! I'll be sure to check out your videos once I get some down time :)

Tabernacle seems like a decent thing, but I feel like against a lot of decks it is just win more.

Maybe it is a good answer for D&T, but I feel like Dread of Night is just as good. Against, elves, we just want to be fast. Against Grixis Delver, we are already pretty favored, so I am not sure why we need this to take up a slot in the board. Lost Legacy does seem good in combination with discard and surgical extraction. I might have to try that out.

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

Tabernacle seems like a decent thing, but I feel like against a lot of decks it is just win more.

Maybe it is a good answer for D&T, but I feel like Dread of Night is just as good. Against, elves, we just want to be fast. Against Grixis Delver, we are already pretty favored, so I am not sure why we need this to take up a slot in the board. Lost Legacy does seem good in combination with discard and surgical extraction. I might have to try that out.

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You wouldn't board it in against all creature matchups. Just ones that you need to disrupt. Basically you use it to slow them down to make time to combo. I.E. Needle on wasteland and with Tabernacle out the have to use their mana to keep their creatures on the board instead of using it to swords you. Also, the fact that it's a tutorable answer for charbeltcher, elves, Goblins, Dredge, etc. I believe makes it better than Dread of Night. To each their own, I just found it great in testing.

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Originally Posted by DudeItsCorey

You wouldn't board it in against all creature matchups. Just ones that you need to disrupt. Basically you use it to slow them down to make time to combo. I.E. Needle on wasteland and with Tabernacle out the have to use their mana to keep their creatures on the board instead of using it to swords you. Also, the fact that it's a tutorable answer for charbeltcher, elves, Goblins, Dredge, etc. I believe makes it better than Dread of Night. To each their own, I just found it great in testing.

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The general sentiment (from the thread looking at previous posts) about tabernacle is that its not ideal. In my testing I have had the card in my deck and never really felt like it was the right card to get. People just pay the mana and you are still stuck dealing with the creature. It may slow other decks down but you slow yourself down just as much if not more by wasting a land drop and tutor for tabernacle. Additionally it taps for 0 mana without urborg and I can't really think of a situation where id want to have tabernacle and urborg against decks with wasteland. Thats just waiting to get wrecked.

It doesn't solve your problems.



Also, in other news I went 3-1 at a local with my version of the deck (posted in primer)

2-0 RDW

SB: - life from the loam -3 sylvan library +2 surgical +2 not of this world

G1: thought seize, inquisition, delay my death so I can combo off

G2: forced to make token on my turn to avoid price of progress. Opponent was new to legacy and didn't have ensnaring bridge. Even if he did it wouldn't have changed the outcome I had abrupt decays.

2-1 MUD

G1: T1 metal worker. I thought seize and see kuldotha forge master and lodestone golem. Forced to take the kuldotha to avoid death by combo and don't escape lodestone beats. 1 Mana short of casting liliana to get back in the game


SB: -4 chalice - 1 life from the loam +2 toxic deluge +3 pithing needle

G2
thought seize and take metalworker maybe. His had is weak without it. Wastelands me, we durdle. He top decks karakas, i top deck pithing needle in response...GG

G3: He keeps a hand with metalworker and I keep one with abrupt decay. I decay the worker and he is short on mana. He dies holding lodestone golem and I have toxic deluge if he ever put something useful on the board.

2-0 Aluren BUG

He's basically playing BUG with 8-10 cards dedicated to alluren. 4x alluren paramedic strix, leovold.

G1: I draw 3x discard and pick apart his hand. He has 2x alluren and since I to-decked the discard I took other cards instead of trying to take allurens. He casts alluren and I EOT Hexmage and combo knowing the coast is clear.

SB: - life from the loam -4 chalice +2 surgical +3 Pithing needle

G2: He needles stage. I am in a position to make token on t3 with hexmage but don't know if it'll get forced. I surgical a brainstorm to peek at his hand and am forced to wait a turn. I see that he really doesn't have anything in his deck to worry about as long as i can cast a hexmage. Just 1 edict. Cast hexmage when coast is clear and crop rotation into sejiri steppe to walk through his wall of blue fliers. (3x strix)

1-2 TES

G1: I keep a hand with T1 liliana. He duresses me and it sucks. We curdle back and forth. I delay him with discard but he gets there the turn i make my token.

SB: -3 sylvan library -1 life from the loam -2 abrupt decay + 3 surgical +2 deluge +1 bojuka

G2: he mulls to 5. I land chalice at 1, then chalice at 0, then win. 0 interaction on his part. Make token and win.

G3: I have a hand with 2x thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek. He duresses me and takes a thought seize. I Inquisition of kozilek him thinking that thought seize is incorrect because i would rather conserve life. He has ad nauseam, ritual, and tutor, land, brainstorm. I have to take the ritual since i can't take the ad nauseam. Taking the ritual means he can't win on his turn and I top decked another though seize. He brainstorms into a cabal therapy, taking both of my thought seizes. He gets there 1 turn before me like always.

Thoughts on G3 ANT: Should I always lead with thought seize against combo? TES only runs 2 cards in the whole deck that are > 3 CMC. Is Life didn't prove important in this game but has in the past. What does everyone else do? Maybe i made the right play but it seems super bad in hindsight?


Reflections: Maybe I'll just take out loam. I didn't draw it and it is literally coming out every game. I didn't get to test emrakul, no one was playing miracles. I didn't ever cast liliana of the veil but i was never disappointed to see it.

I just disagree on the Tabernacle sentiment. I think people are also masking their trust in the card and focusing on its negatives (which are few and far between, especially with Urborg) in large part to monetary reasons. There is arguably no other land in the deck - or game - more powerful than Tabernacle. This deck has hardly any removal, and while it's hell-bent on churning out a 20/20 and swinging in, that doesn't always happen. A card like Tabernacle with almost a dozen tutor effects is an excellent sideboard option against creature-heavy decks and Aether Vial strategies without more than a land or two, and because it acts as removal and lock-down in the same card, it's hard to argue against its value. If people are tapping mana to keep their creatures in play, they're tapping mana that could be used to cast spells to find answers. There's just so much redundancy built into the deck that using a single tutor to blowout or lock-up resources is perfectly fine if the situation requires it.

I'm not saying it's a must-have in every sideboard, but it's still one of the best options for utility with so much land tutoring and absolutely worthy of a flex slot. It doesn't matter if it doesn't tap for mana outside of Urborg, because you have Elvish Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal to accelerate and it's only a one-of. But as a one-of, the card's unique ability to unequivocally control the game on its own is worthy of consideration. Consider its application against Empty the Warrens, as well. If you're a turn short and have a combo piece in play, hand or another tutor - Tabernacle is perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I just disagree on the Tabernacle sentiment. I think people are also masking their trust in the card and focusing on its negatives (which are few and far between, especially with Urborg) in large part to monetary reasons. There is arguably no other land in the deck - or game - more powerful than Tabernacle. This deck has hardly any removal, and while it's hell-bent on churning out a 20/20 and swinging in, that doesn't always happen. A card like Tabernacle with almost a dozen tutor effects is an excellent sideboard option against creature-heavy decks and Aether Vial strategies without more than a land or two, and because it acts as removal and lock-down in the same card, it's hard to argue against its value. If people are tapping mana to keep their creatures in play, they're tapping mana that could be used to cast spells to find answers. There's just so much redundancy built into the deck that using a single tutor to blowout or lock-up resources is perfectly fine if the situation requires it.

I'm not saying it's a must-have in every sideboard, but it's still one of the best options for utility with so much land tutoring and absolutely worthy of a flex slot. It doesn't matter if it doesn't tap for mana outside of Urborg, because you have Elvish Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal to accelerate and it's only a one-of. But as a one-of, the card's unique ability to unequivocally control the game on its own is worthy of consideration. Consider its application against Empty the Warrens, as well. If you're a turn short and have a combo piece in play, hand or another tutor - Tabernacle is perfectly fine.

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Just to echo your comment. I can totally get behind Tabernacle not being a "must have" for the 75. Especially given the price in cardboard. However, in a game against elves, I mulled to 5 on the play. Didn't have an explosive hand. However, I did have a crop rotation into Tabernacle and that was enough to buy me 3 more turns to combo off on win. That experience alone makes it valuable enough for it to be on my sideboard.

I played a more grindy version of this deck with Hymns, Crucible, Deathrites, and 4 Library maindeck and 5-0'd with it a while back. I was not too impressed with Tabernacle. As far as price goes, I play both in paper and online, but my lists are identical - Tabernacle online is very affordable but I have had very few spots where I'm not searching for Depths, Stage, or Ghost Quarter. Once Wasteland is locked down by Needle, I typically maneuver to win as fast as possible in those matchups. Tabernacle would not help the Miracles matchup very much IMO (though I have not had it in play vs them yet) because we can still die to one or two Monk tokens being pumped or just 3 Angels off an Entreat.

In other news, I am planning to switch my 6 Miracles sb slots around:

Current: 4 Sylvan Library, 2 Chalice of the Void
Next to test: 4 Bitterblossom, 2 Sylvan Library?

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

I played a more grindy version of this deck with Hymns, Crucible, Deathrites, and 4 Library maindeck and 5-0'd with it a while back. I was not too impressed with Tabernacle. As far as price goes, I play both in paper and online, but my lists are identical - Tabernacle online is very affordable but I have had very few spots where I'm not searching for Depths, Stage, or Ghost Quarter. Once Wasteland is locked down by Needle, I typically maneuver to win as fast as possible in those matchups. Tabernacle would not help the Miracles matchup very much IMO (though I have not had it in play vs them yet) because we can still die to one or two Monk tokens being pumped or just 3 Angels off an Entreat.

In other news, I am planning to switch my 6 Miracles sb slots around:

Current: 4 Sylvan Library, 2 Chalice of the Void
Next to test: 4 Bitterblossom, 2 Sylvan Library?

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Tabernacle is not there for the Miracles matchup. I believe the only matchup I would board it in that does play wasteland is D&T. Again, it would be to use up their mana to keep creatures in play instead of swords to plowshares, or porting down or keeping Karakas open. Slow them down or stop them from locking you out to where you can combo off. Other matchups are Dredge, Elves, Storm/Beltcher, Goblins, etc.

Regarding Miracles - Is dedicating 6 Cards to your sideboard for 1 matchup really where you want to be? I get it's the most played deck, but man that's a lot for a format as wide open as Legacy. I think you have to concede the fact that it's a bad matchup and try to shore up other matchups you can improve with overlapping cards. Still have hate, but have it overlap - Abrupt Decay, Steely Resolve, Lost legacy, I can even see an argument for surgical (although that means keeping your full discard suit in, not sure how I feel about that against Miracles).

Speaking of Discard suit, I failed to mention that the list I am running is forgoing Inquistion of Kozelik for full playset of Duress. Is there any reason to play Inquistion of Kozelik instead? What creatures with CMC 3 or less am I scared of that I should be playing that over Duress?

Duress is better IMO because it can take FoW. Notable cards that Duress misses are Snapcaster Mage and creatures out of Death and Taxes.

I have not found any other reasonably bad matchups besides Miracles, so I can spend six sideboard slots on it. I don't think that turbo Blood Moon is worth sideboarding against. Death and Taxes is manageable IMO, especially if you are going to have Sylvan Library in the board.

Edit: For reference, my entire sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sylvan Library + 2 Chalice of the Void (these might shift)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas

Edit 2: For fun, what about a sideboard plan against Miracles that was:

-4 Petal
-1? Not of This World
-4 Crop Rotation
-1 Sejiri Steppe
-1 Dark Depths
+4 Stoneforge Mystic
+2 equipments (Batterskull + Sword of Fire and Ice?)
+4 Decay
+1 Needle
+Surgical/Karakas?

Leaving in Spirit Guides and Hexmages to attack with the equipments?

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Originally Posted by apple713

Thoughts on G3 ANT: Should I always lead with thought seize against combo? TES only runs 2 cards in the whole deck that are > 3 CMC. Is Life didn't prove important in this game but has in the past. What does everyone else do? Maybe i made the right play but it seems super bad in hindsight?

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I'd lead with thoughtseize. The subgame is how to make it to the next turn with your other discard spells. The more of them you cast, the more likely you are to keep them from killing you. The only way you don't make it to the next turn with another discard spell in your hand is 1) if you die, 2) if therapy rips both TS. You mitigate the second situation by playing the thoughtseize on turn 1. Also, if they have a 5 card hand that can kill you through thoughtseize, I have a hard time believing that they could not kill you through IoK too. To hit a lethal storm count, they would have to most likely Ad naus or PiF, both of which cost an extra 2 mana to find with infernal (assuming you didn't take it). The only situation you don't take infernal may be if they had 2 in hand. if they had 2 in hand, they would need LED to go hellbent to get the Ad Naus or PiF. If they have 2 infernals and 1 LED, you take the LED, if they have 2 LED, 2 infernal, and a ritual, you might just take the ritual since they can only storm off with a top deck mana source. If the 5th card is a brainstorm, you probably take that too. What I'm getting at is your opponent would have to have a very farfetched hand to punish you for shocking yourself while also not folding to your thoughtseize.

I have tabernacle in paper and online. Tabernacle puts pressure, but it doesn't wipe a board. Now if you manage to get tabernacle + mana web online, that is pretty awesome. The biggest issue with Tabernacle is it generally gives opponents a choice, and in magic giving your opponent a choice is always bad. It is a super strong card to be sure, but there is really no match up that goes wide where I feel uncomfortable.

We are heavy favorites against Delver, Elves, goblins. I get that it is searchable, which is really nice. But the decks that will consistently beat us are Miracles and D&T. Tabernacle does nothing against those decks. DNSolver has been working on a solution against Miracles for a while now. From my experience a good miracles player will almost always win if they know how to play against the deck and don't just draw horribly.

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

I have tabernacle in paper and online. Tabernacle puts pressure, but it doesn't wipe a board. Now if you manage to get tabernacle + mana web online, that is pretty awesome. The biggest issue with Tabernacle is it generally gives opponents a choice, and in magic giving your opponent a choice is always bad. It is a super strong card to be sure, but there is really no match up that goes wide where I feel uncomfortable.

We are heavy favorites against Delver, Elves, goblins. I get that it is searchable, which is really nice. But the decks that will consistently beat us are Miracles and D&T. Tabernacle does nothing against those decks. DNSolver has been working on a solution against Miracles for a while now. From my experience a good miracles player will almost always win if they know how to play against the deck and don't just draw horribly.

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I used Root Maze out of the board against Miracles and mid-range and it was incredibly strong. I have no idea if anyone else tried it, but it was powerful when I used it and pissed people off. I still entertain its use out of the board in local events, but haven't committed to it for larger tournaments - not yet, at least. I'm also not entirely sure at this point that a no-Tabernacle option is the way to go. Giving your opponent a choice between keeping creatures and losing creatures is not a bad thing, and Tabernacle absolutely has big game against a fair deck like Death and Taxes. Miracles - not so much. Any hand that is kept with a Vial and minimal land count is suffocated by the card. I still play Dread of Night anyhow out of the board, but I still feel Tabernacle is a powerful buffer for those match-ups and decks that make a lot of creatures very quickly.

It might not be optimal, but it's far from sub-optimal. The issue is that the monetary aspect can't be ignored, no matter how good it may be. It's hard to justify getting one if you're just trying it as a flex slot, but it's certainly an investment if you're building a Legacy collection.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I used Root Maze out of the board against Miracles and mid-range and it was incredibly strong. I have no idea if anyone else tried it, but it was powerful when I used it and pissed people off. I still entertain its use out of the board in local events, but haven't committed to it for larger tournaments - not yet, at least. I'm also not entirely sure at this point that a no-Tabernacle option is the way to go. Giving your opponent a choice between keeping creatures and losing creatures is not a bad thing, and Tabernacle absolutely has big game against a fair deck like Death and Taxes. Miracles - not so much. Any hand that is kept with a Vial and minimal land count is suffocated by the card. I still play Dread of Night anyhow out of the board, but I still feel Tabernacle is a powerful buffer for those match-ups and decks that make a lot of creatures very quickly.

It might not be optimal, but it's far from sub-optimal. The issue is that the monetary aspect can't be ignored, no matter how good it may be. It's hard to justify getting one if you're just trying it as a flex slot, but it's certainly an investment if you're building a Legacy collection.

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As mentioned by ComplexPants, the issue is that the decks that Tabernacle truly shines against are mainly heavily favored match-ups. Sideboard space is at a premium and using slots for cards that may add additional % points against lopsided match-ups isn't where I'd want to be. We all remember the times some card got us out of an unwinnable situation, but how often is that the case? I personally have tested Tabernacle and own it both online and in paper, so this is an opinion based on experience and not any monetary consideration. Since cutting it, I made a conscious effort to track any situations where it would have definitely won me a game. In over a year of matches, I came across only a few situations - Against Belcher, TES, and Elves. Often times Depths can race even Empty the Warrens anyway.

As far as D+T goes, Tabernacle may slow them down... but going wide isn't really how they win against Depths. They win by having an abundance of answers and sticking a threat or two (often equipped - going over 20 and sandbagging Karakas is a great plan). Taxing their mana by 1 or 2 will slow them and affect cards like Port and spare mana to equip to some degree, but blows a tutor on a card that doesn't interact with Karakas, Wasteland, Mangara, or any of their other problem cards. Their answers are mainly 1 mana, 1 land, or an artifact that sits in play. Tabernacle will not cut them off of those cards barring a severely mana light draw. I'd rather just use the tutor for another stage (or land destruction) and copy their permanents (Karakas to answer Thalia/Mangara), provoke their Wastes, have our own port, copy our own Ghost Quarters/Wastes, etc.