[Primer] Nic Fit

I hope someone of you guys will be able to make some combo version of this deck viable even without top, but I strongly believe that the ban hit the combo versions the hardest. Now we have a clunky pile without being able to assemble A + B without cantrip or ways to manipulate the top of the deck.

Is there a combo finish in bug colors? Brainstorm could boost the consistency pretty well, plus I love perilous research in blue.

For now I'm playing 4 night whispers in GB and I love it. The card velocity is needed and the card is cheap, but I don't want to warp the entire deck with 4 confidants (@Brael: nothing bad about it, but once you play confidant you play an entirely different beast).

Thoughts on some combo in U? Do they even exist?

Well, it does give you access to Brainstorm + Ponder. And depending on what you're trying to achieve, you can run a number of Diabolic Intent.

You could also try going for some sort of BUG Delver Fit list, I suppose. Between Delver of Secrets, Bone Picker and Sultai Scavenger (or even Tombstalker), you have a nice little airforce.

Add in Brainstorm, Ponder, Daze, FoW, Fatal Push, Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer and you almost have a full deck. Bone Picker and Sultai Scavenger even play well with Pernicious Deed.

You could also omit counters and go for some Baleful Strixes and a Sylvan Library or 2. GSZ, a Meren for some late game grinding.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I hope someone of you guys will be able to make some combo version of this deck viable even without top, but I strongly believe that the ban hit the combo versions the hardest. Now we have a clunky pile without being able to assemble A + B without cantrip or ways to manipulate the top of the deck.

Is there a combo finish in bug colors? Brainstorm could boost the consistency pretty well, plus I love perilous research in blue.

For now I'm playing 4 night whispers in GB and I love it. The card velocity is needed and the card is cheap, but I don't want to warp the entire deck with 4 confidants (@Brael: nothing bad about it, but once you play confidant you play an entirely different beast).

Thoughts on some combo in U? Do they even exist?

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There are some combos which can be found with Gifts Ungiven or Intuition, which is probably the best option. Unfortunately there isn't anything which ends the game immediately for less than 7 mana as far as I'm aware - splashing white for Unburial Rites is probably the way to go. If we can find something that lets us go endstep Gifts - untap with 5-6 mana - win the game immediately, that would be great. Anything less solid than that is probably not good enough, given that we're making ourselves vulnerable to graveyard hate in most possible combos.

Cunning Wish is another potential 'combo' piece.

Other options:
Eternal Command (Witness is already fine, and Cryptic is a good card on its own)
Something involving Time Warp (witness, Meren, sac outlet maybe? Maybe something with Panoptic Mirror, if we can survive long enough)
Tooth And Nail (plenty of combos here)
Necrotic Ooze combos
Helm of Obedience + Leyline
Palinchron combos

As far as "Cunning Wish" and Nic Fit BUG strategies are concerned, I'd say that I've tested a lot of "insta kill" cards:
- Empty the Pits is very nice (vs Midrange).
- Hatred (vs Combo) is maybe the best option (expensive but alpha strike nonetheless)
- Crypt incursion (vs Tempo) will give you enough time to take control of the game

My two cents :p

Whoa, that is some sweet food for thought! Wishes, all of them, could be explored more probably

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Well, it does give you access to Brainstorm + Ponder. And depending on what you're trying to achieve, you can run a number of Diabolic Intent. Brainstwell with Pernicious Deed.

You could also omit counters and go for some Baleful Strixes and a Sylvan Library or 2. GSZ, a Meren for some late game grinding.

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Brainstorm and Ponder make you too creature light.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Brainstorm and Ponder make you too creature light.

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Not if they take over your CA/library manipulation slots. But that would mean giving up GSZ.

It's possible a Protean Hulk shell exists, with Gifts+Rites or Intuition to set yourself up. Walking Ballista has reduced the size of the kill package by a lot and made it surprisingly resilient to spot removal.

1: Sac hulk get Phyrexian Delver(or Karmic Guide)+Viscera Seer, Delver returns Hulk (they need to plow the sac outlet here if they're going to plow something)
2: Sac Hulk get Mikaeus the Unhallowed+Walking Ballista, kill the opponent. A single Plow does not disrupt anything at this stage.

I'm not advocating for it necessarily, but it's the most compact combo I can think of to fit the shell you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

It's possible a Protean Hulk shell exists, with Gifts+Rites or Intuition to set yourself up. Walking Ballista has reduced the size of the kill package by a lot and made it surprisingly resilient to spot removal.

1: Sac hulk get Phyrexian Delver+Viscera Seer, Delver returns Hulk (they need to plow the sac outlet here if they're going to plow something)
2: Sac Hulk get Mikaeus the Unhallowed+Walking Ballista, kill the opponent. A single Plow does not disrupt anything at this stage.

I'm not advocating for it necessarily, but it's the most compact combo I can think of to fit the shell you're talking about.

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If you're playing white for Unburial Rites anyway, I'd rather have Karmic Guide than Phyrexian Delver since it does the same thing but lets you combo while below 8 life.

Edit: The most compact Intuition combo is probably Loam / Depths / Stage if you're facing a deck that can't deal with it, since recurring 20/20s will get there eventually.

In BUG, just run 3 Jace TMS and 4 Trackers, you'll be fine. If you really have to play some topend to make you feel like you are playing nic fit, then throw in a Titania or a Consecrated Sphinx or a Grave Titan.

Ponder I feel like is a bit much, but I've enjoyed 3-4 Brainstorm. Only utility land you need is a single Stronghold.

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

2: Sac Hulk get Mikaeus the Unhallowed+Walking Ballista, kill the opponent. A single Plow does not disrupt anything at this stage.

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How come a single Plow not disrupting anything on this stage? Your opponent can always plow/karakas mikaeus in response to the undying trigger, or deathrite/surgical ballista. We'll need an extra round of rotating into a sylvan safekeeper+karmic guide and an extra sac engine activation (or a phantasmal image to copy guide) to make it hard to disrupt.

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

1: Sac hulk get Phyrexian Delver(or Karmic Guide)+Viscera Seer, Delver returns Hulk (they need to plow the sac outlet here if they're going to plow something)

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Since we're playing blue, I actually like Body Double way more than Delver or Guide. It doesn't have an etb trigger, which means that your opponent can't respond with a deathrite to break the combo (once hulk's trigger resolves it's already too late - and if they do it in resp to hulk's activation, you just look for mike+ballista and kill them hoping that they don't have a swords), you don't lose any life and it's a single blue rather than a double white/black to cast if you manually draw it. The only downside is that you cannot do the extra round of tutoring with a Phantasmal Image to ensure swords protection.

Body Double: http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/...hPU/s-l225.jpg

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Not if they take over your CA/library manipulation slots. But that would mean giving up GSZ.

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It means giving up GSZ and giving up some creatures. Keep in mind that the real reason to run the cantrip shell is FoW, so you're also giving up those slots. They force your deck skeleton into looking like Delver. Which I admit is a successful skeleton, but is kind of odd in a ramp deck. If you're going to play fair, I think you need to be getting more board presence from your mana.

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

How come a single Plow not disrupting anything on this stage? Your opponent can always plow/karakas mikaeus in response to the undying trigger, or deathrite/surgical ballista. We'll need an extra round of rotating into a sylvan safekeeper+karmic guide and an extra sac engine activation (or a phantasmal image to copy guide) to make it hard to disrupt.

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If they plow Mikaeus with Ballista in the graveyard, you sacrifice Karmic Guide, trigger undying, sacrifice Mikaeus with that on the stack, return Karmic Guide to undying, return Mikaeus, continue. If they try to exile the Ballista, you do the same trick with undying your return creature and return Ballista again.

EDIT: Nevermind, I knew there was a reason not to use Double. Thanks Navsi.

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

How come a single Plow not disrupting anything on this stage? Your opponent can always plow/karakas mikaeus in response to the undying trigger, or deathrite/surgical ballista. We'll need an extra round of rotating into a sylvan safekeeper+karmic guide and an extra sac engine activation (or a phantasmal image to copy guide) to make it hard to disrupt.

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If they target Mikaeus with a removal spell, you can sacrifice Karmic Guide to viscera seer, then respond to the undying trigger by sacrificing Mikaeus. KGuide returns, brings back Mikaeus, and the combo continues. You can also respond to grave hate in the same way by saccing Guide, and recurring Ballista with Guide in response to the extraction effect.

Mikaeus + Ballista doesn't kill on its own (Ballista gets +1/+1 from Mikaeus, so you either need a sac outlet or a way of turning infinite death triggers from Ballista pinging itself into a kill).

Edit:

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

I suppose this would work with Body Double also, you sac it trigger undying sac Mike return Double as Mike and keep going.

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It doesn't work with Body Double because Body Double you sacrificed to fetch Mikaeus, so it's in your graveyard not on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by square_two

In BUG, just run 3 Jace TMS and 4 Trackers, you'll be fine. If you really have to play some topend to make you feel like you are playing nic fit, then throw in a Titania or a Consecrated Sphinx or a Grave Titan.

Ponder I feel like is a bit much, but I've enjoyed 3-4 Brainstorm. Only utility land you need is a single Stronghold.

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Snapcaster / Strix / Glen Elendra are also very neat.

The pb with BUG is the "clock", which is usually really bad as the deck is definitely very slow as we usually don't play two of the best beaters in BUG: Tarmo and DRS.

So basically we've got 3 known strategies:

- SULTAI Superfriends (Mc Darby Special is the most known for US players). I've posted a very old list (in a former thread) with which I had quite a strong runs (before Mc D.). Slow as hell, unfortunately. Not to mention that when your opponents are locked out, they tend to spend even more time to play, thinking that they might have an "out of jail's key"...

- SULTAI Control Less heavy on PW (usually just Jace if counterspells or Jace/lili without counterspells). This deck tends to play the OLD Pernicious/Jace deck but with Veteran+Cabal Therapy. To be honest, I think the old pernicious/jace is better. Your top end is either Frost Titan / Grave Titan / Sphinx / "you name it".

- SULTAI POD This is the "A - Ranked" Nic Fit deck (GP top 8 or top 16) and, without any doubts, one of the main reasons to play a SULTAI version of the deck in the first place. I invite everyone to try a SULTAI POD before trying anything else.

Cheers,

Ralf

I've been idly theorycrafting a BUG Traverse build topping out at 13-mana Emrakul, but I don't have a list to share. There's probably something there, though.

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to share some successes with two particular cards I'd been testing that I think open some interesting possibilities. Since Amonkhet came out I've been testing Rhonas the Indomitable and Examplar of Strength in my abzan list. Rhonas seemed really good on paper and I've ALWAYS wanted a GSZ'able way to kill my own veteran explorer. I decided to post about it now since I Top 4'd a GPT yesterday with them and got some great feedback and finally a decent amount of reps with them in there. Been working on this list for a while since the banning of top and I think its finally getting close to where I want it for Vegas. For reference:

1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Witness
1 Exemplar of Strength
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Fatal Push
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
1 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

SB:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Circle Of Protection: Red
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread Of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

For the GPT, as a quick rundown:

Round 1: Grixis Smasher (2-1, 1-0 total)
Round 2: UWR Stoneblade (1-2, 1-1 total)
Round 3: BUG Delver (2-0, 2-1 total)
Round 4: Dredge (2-0, 3-1 total)
Round 5: BUG Delver (2-1, 4-1 total)
Round 6: Grixis Delver (2-1, 5-1 total, ended second in swiss rnds)
Semis: Grixis Delver (2-0)
Quarters: Lands (0-2)

It was a decent run and I was pretty pleased with it. Now, what I wanted to point out in this post is that the two new cards have been performing very well.

Rhonas - Dodges a great deal of removal and is absolutely fantastic value at 3 mana. Easy to GSZ in the right spots, and if you have open mana his ability is great. It can turn ANY of your other creatures into a good threat with some excess mana. With lifelink guys he can really pull you ahead as well, even for one activation the extra 2 life matters. When he is 'activated' by a 4 power creature he is a stone cold amazing blocker. He was holding back Gurmag Anglers all day for me yesterday.

Exemplar - The value in Rhonas was definitely more clear to me that this guy initially, but as I play more games with it, I've started to really see more value here. Other players noted it to me as well yesterday. Many of these lines assume there being a Vet around, but that's why I've included the card in the first place so I'll just chat about it. Being able to GSZ for 2, kill a vet on your terms and get lands AND a 4/4 is a great option to have. If you have it in hand, its essentially a free 4/4 since it replaces the lands to cast it. However its also been particularly good in conjunction WITH Rhonas. Hes a very cheap way to enable Rhonas to attack and block, and even if you have to put the counters ON Rhonas, sure, hes smaller, but it still dodges a ton of removal and can now block with deathtouch. There were a few times where I didn't have a vet out, and Exemplar became an expendable 1/1 that allowed me to flashback Cabal Therapy and take away other cards.

They've just been a nice pair all around and I think they've got potential - just wanted to throw that out there! Thanks guys!

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Snapcaster / Strix / Glen Elendra are also very neat.

The pb with BUG is the "clock", which is usually really bad as the deck is definitely very slow as we usually don't play two of the best beaters in BUG: Tarmo and DRS.

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If you aren't playing 4 Strix in bug fit, I think you are doing it very wrong. If you don't have 4 Deathrites, I think you are playing it sub-optimally.

Honestly, I haven't felt like the issue is the clock. I've played SFM junk fit, hated how grindy and slow it was. I've played sneak fit which is probably the fastest version. Bug is a comfortable middle.

I think one issue is that cheap removal options (push, bolt, decay) can't handle big dudes very well - having to rely on Jace to bounce an Angler is a tad annoying. Strix does help here.

Another issue is weakness to both Moon and Chalice since this version lacks full GSZ playset and has more 1-drops, and fetches for duals early in order to better facilitate Strix. I've had more losses to Port than with other nic fit variants I've played with.

I'm not a fan of Pod, just think it is too cute and doesn't do enough. I'd rather just get out Meren which imo has enough value generation alongside Strixes...have seen enough opponents simply concede to Meren to make me confident in that. Walkers I think has some validity - I'd try out an idea for a 10-walker list but don't really care to shell out 60 tix for the Gideons and Oath of Nissas - also a bit undecided whether stretching the manabase for Strixes are worth it there when that version could be junk, run only Vets + E Witness or two, and run a couple more wrath effects. (Well, junk + splash for Jaces)

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Originally Posted by square_two

I'm not a fan of Pod, just think it is too cute and doesn't do enough. I'd rather just get out Meren which imo has enough value generation alongside Strixes...have seen enough opponents simply concede to Meren to make me confident in that. Walkers I think has some validity - I'd try out an idea for a 10-walker list but don't really care to shell out 60 tix for the Gideons and Oath of Nissas - also a bit undecided whether stretching the manabase for Strixes are worth it there when that version could be junk, run only Vets + E Witness or two, and run a couple more wrath effects. (Well, junk + splash for Jaces)

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I'm with you on pod. I played a fair bit of Junk Pod before Worchester and ended up disliking how slow it was. Sometimes it was just a dead card. Other times it cost 4 life to put on the table and activate, which is pretty medium. We also can't run 4 to maximize consistency (unless you're a certified mad lad). BUG Fit needs some strong 3-5 drops and I believe the best beater is just Thrun.

http://i.imgur.com/VGSmNzv.png
4-1 mtgo league

2-1 4c Loam Fire (sigarda is amazing
2-0 Deadguy Ale (didnt feel close all match
2-1 Canadian Thresh ( played around daze and kept land heavy hands. EZ
1-2 ANT ( g1 T2'd me. g2 i t3 Legacy his only tendrils. g2 T2'd me again)
2-0 Bug Delver (hymn version) (rhino and sigarda are great)

Leylines are probably overkill and should be some surgicals and other stuff.

changes to the deck:
-2 nights whisper, +1 sylvan Lib, +1 Painful truth (they were low impact)
-4 leylines, +3 Extirpate (surgicals are 27 tix compared to 3ea) +1 lost legacy