Ruby Storm

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Originally Posted by JosefK

The "reforge feeds the opponent fows" idea is a fallacy. What usually happens at least in ur-storm is that your opponent spends the first few turns cantripping to get counters and stops you from going off. Then you miracle a reforge and start over again, but this time you start the game with a juicy graveyard and a few lands in play, perhaps even a ruby medallion. Do you really think you are worse off in this situation than you are at the beginning of the game?
There are some cases where it might not be a good idea to reforge, if you hardcast it and float zero mana with your landdrop already made and you are facing elves and they have a couple of dudes and a cradle, sure. But being afraid that your opponent might draw fow is not a good argument against reforge.

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Aren't you putting Reforge back or setting it up with Brainstorm/Ponder? Completely different situation IMHO. However, I don't disagree, you definitely have a point about powering through with RtS. It's been a while since I tested it maindeck, I'll have to try it again. When I was doing it, DRS was legal and it didn't usually end well. My opponents started to zero in on important cards. I had at least a few Reforges countered, several Burning Wishes, and even Past in Flames. All of those cards are pretty important to resolve in order to win.

Brainstorm Ponder does help enable the miracle trigger but the brute force method still applies.

One thing that I came to notice is that since the Gitaxian Probe ban the only 1 cmc card we run in the main is Rite of Flame, with the ocasional Overmaster or Faithless Looting showing up. This means that a Chalice of the Void @ 1 is of almost no hindrance. Chalice decks want to put it @ 2, because that's where a lot of our key spells are (Burning Wish, Ruby Medallion, Manamorphose). This works in favor of Sandstone Needle. Since a turn 1 Chalice is ignorable, you can afford to play a turn 1 Needle against them.
But also important to note with this is that Abrade, despite its sweet versatility, is not ideal against Chalice decks.
So I'm currently trying 3 Shattering Spree in the SB, siding 2 of them in. And to fill the creature removal role, I'm trying 3 Pyrite Spellbomb. Pros of Spellbomb are being castable through Ethersworn Canonist and being able to cycle it (This might even make them main-deckable? Who knows). Though both cards are currently taking up 6 SB slots, which is quite a lot. I might have rethink their numbers.
Also worth noting that I'm running 2 Defense Grid in the main.

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Originally Posted by Glass House

Though both cards are currently taking up 6 SB slots, which is quite a lot. I might have rethink their numbers.
Also worth noting that I'm running 2 Defense Grid in the main.

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Do you also run GY interaction? If so, how do you fit your wishboard in your SB?

I had considered chalice a long time ago, there's no debating that it won't steal a lot of games, just not sure if it's going to improve stats since it's a bit awkward mid combo. (to draw into it) it also doesn't stop flusterstorm which is heavily played now. (edit, just noticed you weren't asking about playing chalice, but describing merits against chalice. i think that this is one of the best reasons to play this deck over other storm).

It would improve the matchups that are poor though a little bit. (other combo and delver. Delver isn't as poor. But it can be difficult.)

I think Chalice is the same trap as Blood Moon. You're playing to not lose with Moon/Chalice, not playing to win. Yes you get 'free wins' with them occasionally, but I've found that when you use fast mana to play a lock piece you give your opponent at a minimum an extra turn to find an answer (remember, this is with Blood Moon, which requires 3 mana turn 1 to really work out.) I just found that Blood Moon was good, but not great.

Chalice I think is a sideboard card. Maindeck it should probably be focused on being fast and resilient. The sideboard can bring in Chalice to fight the blue crew, although I'm skeptical if it's better than Defense Grid. It really depends on your metagame.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I think Chalice is the same trap as Blood Moon. You're playing to not lose with Moon/Chalice, not playing to win. Yes you get 'free wins' with them occasionally, but I've found that when you use fast mana to play a lock piece you give your opponent at a minimum an extra turn to find an answer (remember, this is with Blood Moon, which requires 3 mana turn 1 to really work out.) I just found that Blood Moon was good, but not great.

Chalice I think is a sideboard card. Maindeck it should probably be focused on being fast and resilient. The sideboard can bring in Chalice to fight the blue crew, although I'm skeptical if it's better than Defense Grid. It really depends on your metagame.

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it's probably worse than defense grid b/c bonus round enables their surgical extraction even if chalice is resolved for x=1.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

it's probably worse than defense grid b/c bonus round enables their surgical extraction even if chalice is resolved for x=1.

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Valid point, and Extraction is everywhere.

Yeah I wasn't talking about running chalice ourselves :tongue: just noting our resilience against it. My ultimate point was about noticing that Abrade isn't fit for fighting it and looking into replacements for it.

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Originally Posted by Bosaapje

Do you also run GY interaction? If so, how do you fit your wishboard in your SB?

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I'm lacking any sort of graveyard interaction currently. Might try cutting 1 Spree and 1 Spellbomb for 2 Silent Gravestone.

On an unrelated note, Mizzix's Mastery as a Wish target has proved to be immensely powerful thanks to Bonus Round.
An example of a turn 2 win which happens often and doesn't even require a Ruby in play:
T1 Needle/Tomb
T2 Mountain -> Seething Song -> Bonus Round -> Desperate Ritual -> Burning Wish grabbing Mizzix's Mastery and Fiery Confluence -> Mizzix targetting Bonus Round and Seething Song -> Confluence for the win

If you have a Manamorphose instead of a Desperate Ritual you can Wish for Mizzix and Rite of Flame and cast Mizzix targetting BR and Manamorphose, giving you 8 mana and drawing 4 cards, which should also be enough to go off.

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Originally Posted by Glass House

Yeah I wasn't talking about running chalice ourselves :tongue: just noting our resilience against it. My ultimate point was about noticing that Abrade isn't fit for fighting it and looking into replacements for it.

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TES has been on Pulverize.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

TES has been on Pulverize.

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tes doesn't run medallions.

Good call, Mizzix's is good in that situation.

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Originally Posted by [reptiLe]

tes doesn't run medallions.

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That's fair. By Force is still my wishboard target for artifact hate.

So I had never seen this deck in action before I watched Mengucci's most recent legacy veedio, but after I watched that I just had to load this up into Magic Online and take it for a spin. Well, I 0-3 0-6'd my first league :( Does anyone with much more experience with the deck have a good list they'd care to share? I read a few things on the last page that stated Mengucci's list was far from ideal. One thing I did do was add the 4th Bonus Round to the SB and was not disappointed. Wishing for it came up much more often than I would have imagined.

Just read through the thread :)

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Originally Posted by Glass House

An example of a turn 2 win which happens often and doesn't even require a Ruby in play:
T1 Needle/Tomb
T2 Mountain -> Seething Song -> Bonus Round -> Desperate Ritual -> Burning Wish grabbing Mizzix's Mastery and Fiery Confluence -> Mizzix targetting Bonus Round and Seething Song -> Confluence for the win

If you have a Manamorphose instead of a Desperate Ritual you can Wish for Mizzix and Rite of Flame and cast Mizzix targetting BR and Manamorphose, giving you 8 mana and drawing 4 cards, which should also be enough to go off.

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I really like mizzix, but never felt that i needed it and sb space is tight. Your first example you can fetch rite and hazorets and probably win, your second example you can get rite and Pif and be better of.

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Originally Posted by JosefK

I really like mizzix, but never felt that i needed it and sb space is tight. Your first example you can fetch rite and hazorets and probably win, your second example you can get rite and Pif and be better of.

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A sure win is better than a probable one :wink: but I'll concede that PiF generates more value in the Manamorphose case. You're right that SB space is tight and Mizzix might be too niche but I'll stick with it for now.

@d00mwake: I suggest reading the primer in the first page. The list posted there is a good start.

mizzix's is good when you only have R after a bonus round + wish, and you don't have another RoF in the graveyard (also assuming no ruby in play). then you can only generate RRRR and PiF won't net any value. you can argue that empty the warrens is probably still pretty okay in this situation.

Does anyone have an LED-Less list that they have been doing well with?

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Originally Posted by Ninjastill

Does anyone have an LED-Less list that they have been doing well with?

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This is where I'm at currently and I'm liking it so far.

4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Defense Grid

4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
3 Desperate Ritual

6 Mountain
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Burning Wish
2 Past in Flames
3 Rite of Flame
4 Bonus Round
4 Act on Impulse
3 Reforge the Soul
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard:
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Silent Gravestone
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Rite of Flame
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Shattering Spree