This is usually true. I haven't yet gotten in trouble with a Stifle, as it's not hard to just Force the thing, especially since they can't counter your Force back. But it's still something to be aware of.Quote:
Originally Posted by largebrandon
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This is usually true. I haven't yet gotten in trouble with a Stifle, as it's not hard to just Force the thing, especially since they can't counter your Force back. But it's still something to be aware of.Quote:
Originally Posted by largebrandon
The problem with the green splash is that the red splash offers almost all of the same advantages as the green splash. Looking at each individually:
1)Determined can be pitched to Force of Will. With the red splash, there aren't any cards that go in the maindeck that aren't blue. the starstorm, sudden shock, rack and ruin, and urza's rage are all left in the sideboard for most matches, and occaisionally one is sided in. The red splash is mainly for a wishboard, meaning that none of the cards need to be pitched to force of will. And in monoblue, well, your monoblue.
2)Determined cantrips. In the red splash, the deck runs most of it's cards in the wishboard. If it needs an answer, then no that answer won't cantrip, but when you need an untap effect or draw effect, wish does that. And other than wish, the majority of the deck is cantrips. The monoblue version is the same. Also, a two mana cantrip is really not an optimal use for the card. If necesary, yes it can be used as one, but if that is the only draw in your hand, then you'd much rather just have any other cantrip in the deck, which were probably removed for Determined to go in.
3)Determined answers Chalice of the Void at 1. So does rack and ruin. Or echoing truth. And you can play either of those during your opponents endstep, which leaves you with alot more mana to go off with. In fact, I would argue that determined is no better than any wishable answer to chalice in that determined can be chaliced just as easily as wish.
4)Determined draws out counters against a counter-heavy hand. This seems like the only true upside of Determined vs the red splash or the monoblue version. However, if this is what is being gained, then I'd rather just have Orim's Chant, as it is cheaper, more versatile, and leaves you with the ability to remand your freezes.
Of the negatives, I think Tacosnape significantly understated a very big downside. Determined doesn't answer Meddling Mage. The red splash has sudden shock, the white splash has STP. The most comon reason to splash a card is to answer Meddling Mage more efficiently. Does the green splash still have answers to Mage in the wishboard? Yes it does, but the other versions are either just as good, or better at, answering Meddling Mage.
Finally, the other cards Tacosnape mentioned that were being tested. Krosan Grip is interesting, but seems inferior to Rack and Ruin. The fact that it also hits enchantments is largely irrelevant as the only enchantments which are going to get played against you are Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, or Pyrostatic Pillar, and the pillar gets answered by the hydroblasts/BEB's on board. Both can be bounced. Rack and Ruin hits multiple artifacts, so it is only worse when the opponent has one hate card in play, in which case you can either go off with it in play (most of the time this will mean going off low tide, which is harder but definately doable), or just bounce it. The fact that it is uncounterable only makes it better against thresh, but not by much as if they get a rule of law into play and back it up with counterspells, they are probably not going to let cunning wish resolve. The final problem with Krosan Grip (and Sudden Shock for that matter) is that it is only uncounterable as long as the Cunning Wish resolves. Not to say that these are necesarily bad, but they are not quite as "uncounterable" when they are used on a wish board.
Sandstorm seems interesting and can be a very good option, but suffers from the same weakness that the rest of the color has. It doesn't answer meddling mage. And for many of the same situations the red splash plays Starstorm on the wishboard. The white and blue versions don't have a similar effect, but the white version answers confidant or other creatures without letting the opponent untap with them first with STP, and some blue versions use Pongify for a similar effect. Not letting the opponent untap with a Dark Confidant is always a good thing.
I agree with what Tacosnape said about Moment's Peace being pretty iffy.
(Shortened and Numbered for response readibility)
You make a lot of good points. Let me make a few counterpoints.Quote:
Originally Posted by awbarry00
1. Red is frequently boarded in and should be frequently boarded in. If you aren't boarding in one of your Sudden Shock/Urza's Rage (And possibly Starstorm) in a match with Meddling Mage, you aren't really getting any benefit out of them if a Mage is on the board and the player's smart enough to counter Cunning Wish. That said, the pitchability to Force is a bigger difference between Green and White than Green and Red.
2. Again, no it doesn't. You should be boarding in 1-2 cards with your red splash. These cards won't cantrip. The exception here is that Starstorm at least Cycles. Granted, they're far stronger against Meddling Mage than anything Green has to offer.
3. Not unless they play another artifact, it doesn't. And Goblins will frequently drop that Chalice against you with no Vial involved.
4. Determined is a better bluff play than Orim's Chant, because it cantrips. If you fire an Orim's Chant with no intention of going off (IE, You're missing a key element in your hand), and it resolves, this usually tells you your opponent has no counter, but it doesn't draw you a card. Determined draws you that card, and at least three times I've thrown a blind Determined and peeled the High Tide or Reset I needed off of it to win right then, where Orim's Chant would have required me to wait another turn. Chant also doesn't pitch to Force, making multiple useless.
5. Absolutely correct. Green is the weakest color splash against Mage. Interestingly enough this is why I first suggested splashing both Green and Red, 1 Dual each instead of 2, but this proved to be a rather significant headache. Oh well. Try and learn. Read on, however, and let me defend the Green splash versus Meddling Mage in a different manner. This by no means is claiming Green to be the equal of any other color splash versus the Mage. Just showing that in a roundabout way, it does help.
As I said, and this is important, Determined lets you change how you approach Meddling Mage. You can afford to spend every ounce of effort you have to keep it from resolving, as Determined will let you fight through counters. Secondly, resolving a Determined with six lands or so will allow you to combo off without a High Tide without fear of needing the extra mana to Remand, Twincast, and replay your spells.
6. The other problem with Sandstorm is that it doesn't help you against stupid Xantid Swarms. In fact, that's now the card's official name. "Stupid Xantid Swarm." Remember this should you need to name it with Cabal Therapy.
7. Let nobody say I'm afraid to try a card and admit it failed dismally.
What you're saying does make sense, but I still have some thoughts on your reasoning.
First, I agree with what you said about sideboarding. I don't think I have been sideboarding correctly, as I just picked up the deck. However, the deck still should not have problems if there are only 2-3 non-blue spells for Force of Will. I think that this problem was one of the reasons that the white splash was dissmissed early on in the thread.
Next, you'll note that when I listed answers to chalice on one, I not only listed rack and ruin, but also echoing truth. In the red splash, these are both meant to be used. If the goblins player has a chalice on one, then wish for echoing truth and play it endstep, then go off. Rack and Ruin is meant to be used when multiple artifacts are causing problems, or when it's simply better to blow up two artifacts than bounce them. These situations have arisen against stax more than anything, but have happened against goblins or any deck playing moxen. Rack and Ruin doesn't require you to go off the next turn, and that fact makes it an excellent answer to different situations, or when you have a bad hand it can buy you multiple turns. In short, it is meant to fill the same role as Rebuild, which was commonly accepted as an optimal sideboard choice, but it plays the role of Rebuild better by adding some flexibility.
Next, my point still stands concerning uncounterable spells (which is why siding in some of the answers to mage in the red splash version is so good), in that they are not "uncounterable" when they are on a wish board. A good player should never let a wish resolve if they have a choice, and if they don't then they probably don't have a counterspell anyway. Krosan Grip is only good because it is uncounterable, as otherwise it is incredibly clunky and expensive.
Finally, your logic concerning fighting mage with determined. This is a reasonable plan for fighting mage, but flawed in that, in the event that the opponent has more counterspells than you do (which is not unlikely, as Solidarity is not a very counter-heavy deck), and they manage to force through a mage, then the outs to the mage are now entirely dependant on resolving a Cunning Wish. If the opponent successfully counters the wish, or plays another mage, then you lose, where the red splash can draw starstorm or uncounterable removal and go off anyway. I believe that the strongest argument against the green splash is one you allude to yourself, that it is the weakest splash against Meddling Mage. While the green splash is more effective against Chalice of the Void backed up by counters, Meddling Mages are a much bigger problem than Chalice. Also, when not backed up by counters, the red version is more effecient at dealing with either problem than the green splash. In addition, the red splash gives an althernate win condition to deal with blessing, when just stroking the opponent out is not an option (and Bound also happens to make going off through blessings harder). Finally, the green splash version loses access to siding in multiple Twincasts, according to your sideboard list given earlier in the thread:
4 Bound//Determined
3 Hydroblast
1 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor/Krosan Grip
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
Bound/Determined and Twincast are good in similar matchups, but where Twincast is good whether you are trying to go off or protect your combo, Bound is only good when trying to protect the combo, as mid-combo a two mana cantrip is not the card you want to see.
I've been playing this deck for a few weeks or so and I've noticed that it isn't THAT hard to surpass hate. I mean, as long as you get a land drop every turn, it isn't bad at all. Challice at one? Its cool, i can wish for an answer or go off without high tide (which can be done with 5 lands). Have a few counterspells? Then i'll use my own, or use an ass load of twincasts as counterspells or go off in response. I think a good player is required to go against hate - not an off color sideboard.
The best thing I've learned about this deck is that EVERY card in the deck should be a threat to the opponent. If this is not so, then it doesn't belong. With that said, Determined isn't a threat - it doesn't really get you anything you need, and it doesn't hurt them in someway or another.
Also, with the splash, there is a chance that it will get wastelanded. This is a mistake because the deck should take complete advantage of the fact that it only has basic lands, and thus are wasteland proof. This leaves your opponent with a card that is useless against you, which is what you want.
One card that I think can merit some exploring is Piracy charm in the Sideboard. It helps slowing goblins and great against Bob. If those decks don't have either of them out, then make them discard a card. It is a very versatile card.
This deck has an *amazing* ability fightning though hate, but it is not impervious. A lone chalice at one is never a problem, same with the lone mage. What is a problem is multiple threats/disruption i.e. stacks and trinisphere, and disruption with a fast clock. It takes more than a lone card (even with single countermagic protection) to stop a decent solidarity player, but the refined problem decks, thresh, red death, stacks, and homebrew, can cause the decks some problems, because of the multiple disruptions.
I have tried piracy charm, but I don't like it better than the other cards in the board, maybe it's just the meta. I don't know. Does anyone else think the same? (as with pongify?)
Hydroblast isn't a threat to the opponent. Neither are any of the Bounce spells. Neither, for that matter, is Force of Will. The deck's quite capable of supporting some cards that protect. Determined's ability to draw a card is also underrated. You won't always get what you need off it, but your chances of Determined-ing into a Brainstorm, Impulse, Meditate, Untap spell, or something of similar nature are pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by largebrandon
As for Wasteland, very true. Wasteland's existence is why I'm still leaning towards Mono Blue.
Piracy Charm's interesting, especially if you've got a lot of Goblins and Epic Storm around, as it's equally awesome on Lackey and Xantid. Again, though, it doesn't kill that pesky Mage.
You could play Pongify. I'm sure even Solidarity can win within the next 6 turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Force of Will is one of the BIGGEST threats in the deck. It can protect your combo, but it can also rip your opponent a new one when he can't get one of his threats in play. The same with hyrdoblast - just not as dramatic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Pongify is one of my favorite new cards - it is a blue Swords to Plowshare, in a sense. I think some sb slots are in order for testing this one.
Maybe i'm going to say an heresy or something, but if 3 twincast between main and board are sufficient, couldn't we at last try 12 island 6 fetch main and -1 twincast +1 volcanic island side? (i'm referring to the side showcased in post 1097 by the master himslf :D)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I mean, if we splash red to improve our chances against mage, then we want to improve matchup against fish and thresh, which are decks in which we would have sideboard in the twincast anyway, and as long as i know are 3 colors and consequently don't play wasteland...
Am i right? if not, why?
Hmm, is solidarity no longer a deck to beat? Is the deck not putting up the numbers - or has the format just changed so that it doesn't really have any good matchups?
The reason it's here is that the deck hasn't put up consistent results lately. Don't dismiss it, I personally think it's still a deck, you want to have a plan for. However, under the new criteria for LMF-forum, it simply isn't qualified as it hasn't Top 8d enough.
Very true. This forum doesn't sort the decks on tier, but on the amount it's seen in T8s. I think Solidarity still is tier 1, and someone (Deep6er) should T8 with it.
What a bizarre idea. I'm going to try that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FRM
The huge downside is, of course, that you can't do a darn thing with your red spells in board game one. Still, it's a somewhat bizarre idea, and I like the bizarre.
Just a little note: someone suggested sandstorm to fight EtW tokens in the green splash. You ca do that with the white splash too, using Rain of Blades.
It even works with the red version: Scorching Winds does the same job. Yes, it's a sorcery, but can be played in the opponent's turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
The question is: Why not use Echoing Truth to do the job in mono-U, which is still useful against many other things? If the TES player expects one of those other exotic cards, he can simply choose to attack with only half of his creatures, for example.
Just a quick idea for the deck. I see that one of the biggest problem with the deck - save meddling mage - is a bunch of counters. So, against a deck like threshold, why not have a sb-ed Disrupt or three. It gains cards, is easy to cast, and can hurt a tapped out thresh player.
Disrupt has been tried and it is just inferior to the other strategies you have to fight counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by largebrandon
You can use their counterspells to get more storm and finish them with a couple small freezes.
You can use Twincasts to copy your spells (or in rare cases their counter) to still get your spell.
You can use Think Twice and Flash of Insight to simply outdraw them and have more must-counters than they have counterspells.
You can Remand your spells to save them (for example You: Tide, Opp: Counter, You Remand the Tide, try again later) if you don't have Twincast preboard.
You can Turnabout their lands so they only have the free counters.
All these actions need some mana but against decks with counters you can usually wait to go off until turn 8 or later giving you more landdrops so it shouldn't be a big problem.
Sorry if that's a bit out of the context of the discussion right now, but I'd really like to know, how exactly to sideboard with Solidarity or to be more precise what to board out, as what you board in is pretty obvious in most matchups.
So lets assume I run the (more or less) traditional list:
12 Island
6 Fetchlands
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt / Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
1 Twincast
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
SB:
4 Hydroblast
3 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Wipe Away
Against Goblins I want to board in the Hydroblasts, but what comes out?
Do I want to board the Hydroblasts against any other Deck running red (Burn, Boros, Zoo)? My guess would be yes, because it trades one card for a card of theirs and more time and also Pillar sees more and more play. The question that remains is what comes out?
Against any Deck running Counters + problematic permanents (Meddling Mage, Arcane Lab, ) I want to board Twincast and Wipe Away, again what comes out? The Remands?
So far I always boarded out random Cards like 1 Peek, 1 Brainstorm and so on, but I'm sure this is not really optimal.
Then I have two more questions on the deck in general:
a) Is it viable to run Mystical Tutor, if I'm sure there will be nobody running Predict? I know about the card-disadvantage, but it does find whatever you want.
b) How about 1 Mystical Tutor side to wish for? I've often been sitting there holding a hand full of action just without High Tide. At those points the card-disadvantage wouldn't matter as you'll know you can go off with the Tide. I guess it has been tried before, but was it really that bad?
c) When would you ever wish for a Brain Freeze? There are only three situations I can imagine:
1) Your two maindeck Freezes are sitting on bottom of the deck or in your graveyard (why would they?) and a wished Freeze can provide a kill right now (maybe they have a draweffect on the stack), but then you could still wish for carddraw and continue in the combo, so the Sb Freeze is not really necessary.
2) You are midcombo already having wished Meditate and not enough mana for Stroke, so you Wish to Freeze yourself and then hope to find something in the Flash of Insight.
3) Multiple Gaea's Blessings where you have to play around them by Freezing in response to the trigger 2 or 3 times only being able to play a small Sroke due to mana requirements.
Do those situations come up that often, so you need a Brain freeze sitting in your SB?
Sideboarding depends mostly on what you have seen game 1, what you expect to see game 2/3 and linked to that what you can read out of your opponent (does he play aggressively/defensively, will he counter your Tides/draw/untap etc.).
Most of the time I board out Peeks as the information gained isn't that relevant anymore and Forces as they are card disadvantage and will be replaced by either Blasts or Twincasts.
Mystical Tutor is bad because most of the time you only have about 3-5 cards (3 Meditate, 2 Flash of Insight) maindeck to regain the lost card and especially if you forced earlier you may need extreme luck to hit enough Cantrips/Carddraw to continue the combo.
A single Brainfreeze in the board is nice because it gives you the added flexibility to actually perform the actions you listed. These situations do come up sometimes and dedicating a single slot in the board for Brainfreeze gives you more possibilities than a random bounce/hoser.