[DTB] Vial Goblins

I'm not sure what some of your sentences are saying, but the poor synergy between tin street hooligan and warchief is very rarely a problem. Plague is extremely dangerous if your opponent has a lot of other forms of removal, such as swords, infest, damnation, lightning bolt, vindicate, and so on. The idea of patron is to hold back a little and use it at the end of turn step to keep it away from cards such as vindicate and damnation. A lot of deadguy builds arent even running swords to plowshares currently, nevermind the fact that if they have it, it will be used against lackey or warchief. It is a lot less conditional than players think, sending in some damage early on and then using patron to squeeze extra points of damage in sets them in dangerous territory if they are even still alive. You don't have to hold patron back until it is going to swing for lethal damage, it is a 7/5 beatstick who runs around plague, if it were only against plague, it wouldn't be in my sideboard, the same goes for krosan grip. The deck should be prepared for anything, grip and tin street help that a lot. Tin Street is better than tinkerer against the mirror, better against decks with removal or blockers. Tin Street does what you need it to, and can't be stopped by anything Tinkerer couldnt, with the exception of warchief. Tin street is also a 2/1 beatstick, and doesn't crowd up your 1cc slots too much since you are running chalice and will set it on 1 often.

Basically, Tin Street is better than Tinkerer because Tinkerer can't kill active Jitte (the counters will just kill Tinkerer before it can tap to destroy anything, and Warchiefs are always dead already so you'll never have the chance to use the Haste), needs Vial at 2 (or Warbeef+lots of mana) to kill an active SoFI, can be Needled, can die before killing Vial in the mirror and can be Cursed Scrolled before it gets to untap. Also, power of 2 makes Tin Street a lot more respectable body a lot more often.

As you can see from my examples, all the artifacts you really need to kill have already slain your Warchief by the time Tinkerer generally gets there. This also means that Tin Street has almost no drawback since Warchief tends to die (or you can *gasp* choose not to cast it before Tin Street) to whatever you want to remove and when it doesn't, you can usually afford to Gempalm your own Warchief to remove something like Ensnaring Bridge you need to kill before winning (since it tends to be the only obstacle in your way).

SBing in the mirror: When playing Folinus' TML02 decklist (RW), I side-out 4 Piledriver for 3 Disenchant (getting rid of Needle gives you a good advantage) and 1 Pyrokinesis (3 maindeck).

I was wondering what was your SBing strategy against Deadguy and Angel Stompy. Thanks in advance for your replies.

My Sideboard is as follows:
3x Krosan Grip
4x Chalice
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Patron of the Akki (optional, I prefer it)

I Top 8'd TMLO2 day 2. I played against Folinus' also. My report against him is somewhere up there in the forums. My maindeck consists of no pyrokinesis, although it wasn a very good (and correct) meta strategy for the TMLO2. Against gobs, I board out 3 piledriver and board in 3 pyrokinesis. Playing the green build gives me an edge over other builds because of the two maindeck tin street, although Folinus did get the one kinesis against me (lucky I had the aether vials).

VS Deadguy I board in 3x pyrostatic pillar, 3x pyrokinesis, 3x krosan grip, 2x patron of the akki. I board out 2 SGC, 3x gempalm, 2x tin street, 3x driver, 1x fanatic, Something and somewhere along thos lines. Game one is very good against deadguy. Games two and 3, deadguy usually boards in extra creature kill along with 4 plague. I dont like driver in the game 2 and 3 matchups, but i will still leave in at least one of every goblin in case they're needed. You will have very little creatures on the board most likely. If I have Patron, my strategy is to usually try to take advantage of the sorcery speed removal they have such as vindicate and plague, and drop a lethal or near lethal beater in response. I have 5 outs vs plague with grip and patron.

Angel Stompy is a fairly easy matchup as long as you keep the equipment off the table, so i do my best to board any way to stop it. If I'm on the play, in 3 Grip and 3 pyrokinesis depending on the build and what i see, out something along the lines of 3 piledriver 3 incinerator. I would do my best to try to hit with lackey also, a lot of builds are currently running isamaru, that's why I would take kinesis over gempalm if i get a lackey in my draw. On the draw I would board out 4 lackey for the 3 grip and 1 pyrokinesis.

Okay I have not tested this at all, but from reading the thread of underated decks, it sounds like Counterslivers could show up. I have tested it and it is about a 50/50 MU for me, so would Engineered Explosives be a good SB card? Set it at 2 and kill off there whole army. Just a thought. Kills confidant, shade, wretched anurid, werebear, jitte, scroll, etc... It could also get a ton of stuff at one. Thoughts?

I don't play this game anymore, but this seems counter intuitive. You're effectively doing their job by killing your guys + spending mana so you can do what, kill a Jitte? Isn't that what Tin Street is for? I'm sure there are better options for Counterslivers than EE.

Probably, but that is also totally wiping away there board. I was just saying the card is extremely powerful against them and all that you would be losing is a piledriver. Then it also comes and helps against other 2cc crap we don't like. The most you would ever lose would be one piledriver because if you did have more, you would be in a good position already. Just a thought.

It's not bad against TES either. Meathooks (counter slivers) has been a coin flip for me too, however, I was talking to players who actually play meathooks competitively and they say gobs is a 70/30 in their favor. The only way that i have lost to meathooks is when I can't disrupt their lands and they get crystalline sliver out. I don't think you'll see enough decks where EE is actually good enough to justify it in a sideboard. Even if you end up against slivers, the match is definitely winnable. If Meathooks is in your meta a lot as well as some combo, I would run Red Elemantal Blast and hope to counter the crystalline.

Going 2-2 or 3-3 (or whatever) against random scrubs playing MeatHooks on MWS should be taken with a grain of salt. One thing about slivers is that they attract a lot of Timmys. And they usually want to make stupid changes to the deck, like putting in Aether Vials, Standstill, Gemhide Sliver, Quick Sliver, Essence Sliver, or whatever goofball cards they just "know" should be in there. Properly built and piloted, MeatHooks does in fact beat Goblins about 2-1. Btw, while getting down an early Crystalline almost guarantees victory, it isn't strictly necessary to win. Sometimes you just go plated, sinew, sinew, muscle, winged, win. The games that Goblins wins tend to be the games where they resolve multiple early AEther Vials, combined with heavy mana disruption, particularly if the MH player kept a land-light hand. In other words, the types of games that Goblins always wins, regardless of what the opponent is playing.

If you're actually concerned about the matchup, and I'm not sure you should be at this point, I would sideboard Anarchy. That's probably the single most devastating spell you can play against us, if you can get it to resolve.

I have never and will never consider MWS playtesting. I test with good players and that's it. Meathooks is at best a 3-2 favorite over goblins. Granted the players I play with don't normally play meathooks but do play other gro style variants.

Has anyone thought of, considered, or tried a blue splash?

R/u Vial Goblins

Lands (23)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures (30)
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells (7)
3 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

It seems like Stifle would be amazing in Goblins. In the mirror, it can prevent the opponent from gaining card advantage via Matron/Ringleader, stop Hooligans from hitting your Vial, etc. It compliments the LD strategy well and it seems like the turn or so it buys you vs Solidarity would make that matchup much better. It also seems like it could strengthen the IGGy/TES matchup a great deal too (especially with Chalice in the SB).

I threw this list together the other day and played a few games with it and I liked it. What do you guys think?

Blue was tried earlier in the forums for fire/ice, but I don't think anyone has tried stifle yet. R/G is better vs a random field. In a field full of combo it would be considerable, but most of the time gobs taps out and cant cast the spell early without having to hold back and have no clock if you didnt open with vial. The mirror would still have the edge because the two tin street are tutorable, making your vial very likely to be destroyed. If the tin street is stifled, they still have a 2/1 beater and will most likely be able to tutor for the other. Blue may have other cool things for the board though too. Green is probably still the best splash color, but for the hell of it, and since the goblins page has been really slow, we should at least give our ideas and comments on it.

I like it, but then you lose the whole reason you are splashing for white or green and that is artifact and enchanment removal. Plus the dissynergy with chalice and stifle is bad if you need to dropp chalice at one. But you would probably want to drop it at 0 more. I want to test it.

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The mirror would still have the edge because the two tin street are tutorable

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Well... while Hooligan is probably much better than Tinkerer, I do have 2 Tinkerer in my maindeck list.

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but then you lose the whole reason you are splashing for white or green and that is artifact and enchanment removal

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I read somewhere, and I believe it was Machinus that said it, but the best protection against anti-Goblins hate (like Engineered Plague and such) is the mana denial that the deck uses. The opponent cannot cast Engineered Plague if you don't let them have 3 lands or a black source to cast it. The Stifle's compliment that LD plan by hitting fetchlands. What enchantments are you guys worried about? As far as artifacts go, I'm pretty sure red itself can deal with those.

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but most of the time gobs taps out and cant cast the spell early without having to hold back

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While I'll agree to an extent with this, there are still the times where you cannot do anything with early mana sources either because you have no 2cc guys in hand or you have a Vial out, etc... which in most cases is when you'd use Rishadan Port with the excess land. Goblins doesn't always necessarily tap completely out... and against something like Combo where you'd want to over-extend, the 1 mana investment in Stifle is usually going to be worth it I would think.

Again, I haven't done much testing with this list at all. The idea came to me the other day and I decided to throw a list together with Stifle and see how it worked. This list has been fine for me so far and I was curious to know if anyone else had thought if it and if it was worth giving a try.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

The opponent cannot cast Engineered Plague if you don't let them have 3 lands or a black source to cast it. The Stifle's compliment that LD plan by hitting fetchlands. What enchantments are you guys worried about? As far as artifacts go, I'm pretty sure red itself can deal with those...

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One thing black is notorious for is acceleration. Getting to three mana with a Ritual shouldn't be a problem. Playing blue for Stifle doesn't seem applicable to the overall strategy of Goblins because your goal is to kill them as fast as possible. Artifact removal is key, because if Jitte goes active, I don't have to tell you what will happen. And a Swords of Fire/Ice? Ouch. This is all assuming someone is playing against you with an enchantment worth worrying about: Engineered Plague (because it nullifies half the deck?) Stifle is a great card - don't get me wrong - but for as easy combo thinks it has against you...it isn't that easy.

Don't concern yourself with stall tactics/situational mana denial. Kill them as fast as possible - that's how you win. Rishadon Port works just as good denying an opponent open mana sources and provieds you mana as well.

Stick with R/g artifact/enchantment removal. It's a safe bet for what's out there.

I play Goblins with 3x MD Pyro and was wondering what you guys think of the following sideboard. I'm switching from Rw Goblins to Rg Goblins due to its edge in the mirror match and that I'm expecting a lot of decks with troublesome equipment at the GP. For reference my Rg list has 1x MD Tin-Street.

Sample SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tranquil Domain //looking for something for this slot
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

[QUOTE=Hanni;121504]Well... while Hooligan is probably much better than Tinkerer, I do have 2 Tinkerer in my maindeck list.

Odds are, in the mirror, tinkerer wont get a chance to be used unless it's hasted, which I doubt since warchief never stays out long. Although that means we have to waste removal on it, your deck doesn't have that option against R/G goblins.

Gekoratel- Your edge in the mirror with 3 MD kinesis and tin street should be enough to actually remove the other pyrokinesis from your board. If you really like pyrokinesis MD I would suggest cutting to 2 and boarding one. You will still have a huge edge in the mirror, and your ringleaders will be a little less crowded with non goblin cards. I personally like 2 MD ton street, and if I had room, I would MD a 3rd. Tranquil domain isn't necessary imo, 5 ways to remove enchantments is overkill IMO. Vs deadguy and other black aggro decks you're going to find that when you board in 3 grip and 2 tranquil domain, you're losing some of your aggression and may end up losing the game because of it. 1 Plague is fine since you can rebuild off of it, I personally like patron of the akki for this reason, so I can have an answer to plague or double plague and still be able to stay aggressive. Tranquil domain only helps more if your opponent is running survival, moat, humility, or an enchantment based deck. Personally I'm not a fan of tranquil domain, but it isn't a bad slot either.

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Odds are, in the mirror, tinkerer wont get a chance to be used unless it's hasted, which I doubt since warchief never stays out long. Although that means we have to waste removal on it, your deck doesn't have that option against R/G goblins.

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Again, I understand that Hooligan is probably a bit better in the mirror than Tinkerer is.

However, I'm unsure what you mean by "your deck doesn't have that option." I run removal too...? I'm a bit unsure what you meant by that. In any case, Stifle has the benefit of stopping opposing Incinerators too. Stifle is insanely versatile in the Goblins mirror. I run Stifle in most of my decks than run Blue and always find it to be one of my strongest cards vs Goblins. I don't see why it would have any less of an effect in a Goblins deck itself. If the argument is simply that Tin Street Hooligan is a million times better than Goblin Tinkerer + Stifle, I think that would need a bit of testing first to prove otherwise.

The main issue is that blue doesn't offer any enchantment hate (since there are tons of artifact hate cards in the color red itself). What enchantments are problematic that see lots of play? Engineered Plague? While I suppose B/r and B/w Sui variants could power out a turn 1 Plague off of a Dark Ritual, most of the time I don't see that happening. Instead, Stifle on fetchlands, Wasteland if they do for some reason drop a Badlands/Scrubland, and Port on their basic Swamps will often buy more than enough time of keeping them off 2B in order to secure a win.

However, I can see Engineered Plague being relevant hate in other decks as well. 4c Landstill, G/R/b Survival, UWb Fish, among others. It seems like the Stifle fetchland plan would still be strong against most of these decks to keep them off of relevant colored mana/hate. I've played against Goblins many times with several different decks and always find that their best overall anti-hate plan is simply screwing over my manabase.

This is what I was referring to before, I found the quote of what Machinus had said about mana disruption in an old post on TMD:

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Quote from: Machinus

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Quote from: AnwarA101
I find it interesting that Machinus' first place list had no answer to Engineered Plague other than to just beat the decks playing it. I'm not sure there are any decks that are seeing much play that actually play Engineered Plague. Deadguy Ale is like the only one and it hasn't exactly been doing well in the current metagame.

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Quote from: quicksilver
He had a great answer to engineered plague against me, double waste, double port, removal for every creature. He never let me get to 3 mana and I died with 3 plagues in hand. That's a pretty good answer if you ask me.

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This is a worthwhile discussion topic. I worked on this problem for some time before I decided that the deck was so terrible at answering hate that it actually made it much worse when it was trying to do so.

The game states that shut down the deck are rare. Double Plague, Humility, etc. Mana disruption is a huge strength of the deck when fighting hate like this. (I cut wasteland on a bad metagame call and that fucked up my performance, but cutting port might be the worst suggestion I have ever read for this deck.) My deck also has the ability to answer any number of artifacts, so I had a lot of confidence in the deck's disruption.

I decided that I was willing to risk encounting the low frequency of this hate, rely on the disruption and speed of the deck, and hope that I could play through randomness. It's just a result of a certain kind of tournament strategy that many good players that I know of have. There is a well-known solidarity player on this website with a quotation related to ths school of thought in his signature.

Farragut won that battle, by the way.

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I wrote earlier that YOU MAYhave the edge because stifle is a powerful card in the mirror. However, the reason that you don't have the option is that the mirror match is full of removal, especially after pyrokinesis comes in. Tin Street's ability is a come into play effect and removal won't do anything to prevent the loss of vial. Stifle however, (not that i necessarily agree that it belongs in the deck though it may) can give you your edge back, depending on what cards you lose for it.

You may be right about not letting them be able to cast plague. However, eventually they will draw plague + rit, or maybe you only have 1 port and they have 4 swamps in play, either way, you have to have a solution for it. The fact is, although there aren't many tier decks out there that play plague, you're going to run into it a lot more than you think when GP comes around. Many players play weak decks with MD solutions and SB solutions to try to completely hate out goblins. Don't forget that krosan grip has made a ridiculous improvement on the deck.

As far as Tinkerer vs Tin dont forget not only are you waiting to untap but he needs the additional investment of R to blow something up. While one more mana doesnt seem like a big deal, if thats your turn three you arent casting Warchief anymore.

Getting Taigas hit by Wastelands is usually ok because you try not to fetch or play them until you have Grip or Tin ready. If your playing with Stifle you need to fetch the Volcanic and sit with it open w/ stifle in hand. If your opponent proceeds to Wasteland your Volcanic, what are you gonna do, use the Stifle up on the Wasteland?