[Deck] Burn

I always regarded Burn as a irrelevant deck that loses against most decks but I tested the deck a bit yesterday and I was impressed. It beats Goblins fairly easily, the same is generally true for UW Tempo.

But I found the Zoo match-up not that good 50/50 at best. 2 Damage from Volcanic fallout isn't enough to kill their creatures. I understand that Volcanic Fallout is good vs Merfolk. But I wonder if it's not smarter to put Flamebreaks in the main instead of Fallout? I have the feeling it improves the Zoo match-up more than it hurts the Merfolk match-up.

@Nelis: Quite correct. The Zoo vs. Burn MU is almost the same as the Zoo vs. Zoo match-up - 50%. It's largely a race, and assuming both players get equal hands and top decks, whoever goes first typically wins. Cards like Keldon Marauders, Flamebreak and Sulfuric Vortex/Flames of the Blood Hand (against Lightning Helix) make the MU more favorable (mainly from making wins more likely even when on the draw). Fetchlands and other suicidal effects like Flame Rift make it worse.

You're also correct that Flamebreak over Volcanic hurts Merfolk less than Volcanic over Flamebreak hurts Zoo. BUT! There are other matches than Zoo and Merfolk, and that's why Volcanic Fallout is often more popular MD. If all you see is tribal aggro and zoo, you should probably play Flamebreak (if Goblins run Rishadan Port though, Fallout at instant speed is slightly better since they can't lock you out of 3 mana then). If you also see a smattering of Ichorid, Death and Taxes, Faeries, Meathooks, decks with manlands etc. - the instant speed, hitting fliers and the uncounterability will matter more than the extra point of damage. Fallout also has more synergy with Keldon Marauders, clearing a path for them against tribal aggro.

Patrick Sullivan recently made the Top 32 of Grand Prix-Columbus playing Burn. You can read his tournament report here.

This is his decklist:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast

8 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar (storm based combo, Aluren, etc)
4 Vexing Shusher (Counterbalance)
4 Searing Blaze (Dudes)
3 Tormod's Crypt (...)

Holy fetchlands Batman! I'd think that would be far too many, but obviously it worked for him.

I ran a creature-less burn at the GP and went 5-4. My losses were to Elfball (should have Flamebreak'ed the turn before he went off), Doomsday w/ Emrakul, GWB Rock, and Countertop Thopter (mulligan to 4 hurts).

I'll have to try out a list like his soon. I just figured that creatures were a bad idea since everyone and their brother were trying to hate out Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo.

A local guy ran a burn list with Ankh of Mishra and went 6-3. I had been testing with it but decided to take it out as I felt it had too much of the Browbeat-effect in that in most circumstances the opponent choses the best course of action for him, as opposed to you dictating that course of action. I luckily avoided Lands at the tourney but he ran into them, so the Ankhs were pros in that matchup.

Wow, playing Flame Rift in this environment is really ballsy. I used to run it, but that was when the game was a bit slower. Against the mirror, Zoo, or anything else that's fast Flame Rift is generally a bad idea. I'm more surprised by that than the fetches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Wow, playing Flame Rift in this environment is really ballsy. I used to run it, but that was when the game was a bit slower. Against the mirror, Zoo, or anything else that's fast Flame Rift is generally a bad idea. I'm more surprised by that than the fetches.

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In the report he explains why he run Flame Rift, and why he doesn't board them out against Zoo.

Obviously it worked for him, but it still doesn't make sense to me. If it were an even trade, then I could certainly see the point. But you're left down a card and two mana, which means a hell of a lot when all that matters is speed. He says you're slightly faster, but how slight is that? Your speed advantage may be negated if you're losing cards and mana. /shrug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

In the report he explains why he run Flame Rift, and why he doesn't board them out against Zoo.

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He also explains how he had to board out Kiln Fiend against Zoo, and would like to have boarded out Goblin Guide as well. Had he run neither of those cards however, I'm confidant that Flame Rift would have been boarded out for Searing Blaze instead. The problem was he had several cards in the deck that were bad in the aggro MU, and Rift simply wasn't bad enough.

Reading his report, it seems most of his problems came from:
*Flame Rift over Magma Jet: He often finds himself low on life against aggro while still needing to top deck that last spell and often drawing blanks. A card that tweaks draws over a card that deals self damage would have helped this.
*Creatures over Sweepers: He runs into removal several times which is a form of disruption that Burn shouldn't really be a victim too. And he has trouble with Ichorid and Goblins for lack of sweepers, and looses to 13 goblin tokens on turn 2.

I agree with pretty much everything urdjur said.

As far as the list, I have never liked Lavamancer, cuz it's a huge target in a deck with very few other targets. I guess playing Fiend helps in that regard, cuz they both have big targets, but I don't like either one that much. If you are going to play mancer though, 12 fetches is probably the right way to go.

I really want to play Flame Rift also, as zoo is the only match that it is really dangerous in, and Patrick is right, we are a bit quicker. The problem is I don't want to cut anything to make room for it. I'll never play burn without Jet until they make a red Brainstorm. Aside from that, I keep thinking the Hellspark slot can be cut for it, but I really like Hellspark now.

I keep wanting to update the board to include Shusher, but at the same time, Counterbalance seems to be less of a threat. The real problem is I don't want to board anything out in that matchup, I guess sweepers, but I still really like my Grips too. We'll have to see.

Anyway, I'm glad that stupid burn made a showing at the event. It shows that the deck can do well when piloted by a competent player, even if it is what I believe to be a subpar list. I also doubt that he would disagree with that, cuz he said himself that he didn't test the deck, and threw Kiln Fiend in the deck without even testing a game with it until round 2.

Yeah, reading the report I was surprised to see Lavamancer get active so often, but I also figured that Guide/Fiend shielded it. Burn needs a few reusable damage sources IMO, but there are better options than Lavamancer. You get the far more resilient Sulfuric Vortex for roughly the same mana investment and damage potential, and it also blanks life gain in those last critical turns of game play. I've been main decking them for some time now - the self damage against Zoo isn't so bad when you consider it also blanks Lightning Helix. Hellspark Elemental is another reusable damage source that works better with sweepers than Lavamancer - also more resilient as it requires mana open and StP/PtE. I also use Shivan Gorge (I prefer it over Barbarian Ring) as a mana sink for those times when you wait for that last top deck.

As for your list Bigbear, I don't think you need to worry about fitting Shusher when you have Grips already. The advantage to your build IMO is that Grip handles so many board lock problems at once that you can afford to run stuff like Searing Blaze against aggro. I play mono red Burn and use a 2/2/2 split of Shusher, Needle and REB against CounterTop. It's almost as effective as a playset of Grips.

So i just went 3-1 in a casual legacy tournament, only losing to a Runed Halo on Fireblast with 3 in hand vs. Countertop after he fetches all 7 (!!!) of his basics. I am playing a pretty much stock list (with green splash for grips):

9 Mountain
1 Taiga
9 Fetches

4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Hellspark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
3 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Reckless Abandon
2 Volcanic Fallout


Sideboard

1 Price of Progress
4 Powder Keg
4 Searing Blaze
2 Pyroblast
2 REB
2 Krosan Grip

The key cards are:

Reckless Abandon: This card is absolutely insane. With 10-12 creatures, this card speeds the clock up by about half a turn. It turns Keldon Marauders into 9 damage and Hellsparks into 10. It also means that in Goyf matchups your guides will do more than get in once or twice. The chances of having more than one or having one without creatures is something like 3% of games, and the only matchup this will matter in is combo, in which this is already the best card in the deck (it allows you to race ANT if you win the flip and they have a mediocre or bad hand). Oh, and it also saves your Hellsparks from path/swords. When this card is good, it is GREAT.

Powder Keg: Seriously, why aren't people playing this?
@ 0 it is the win vs. either dredge or any combo deck using empty the warrens because it buys enough time to burn for lethal.
@ 2 vs. Counter-top is a game-changer. I will drop this turn two then they will either force it (instead of your fireblast) or you will blow it on 2 taking their counterbalance, and hopefully a goyf. Then they are unprotected for at least a turn.

By the way, the reason I play this over EE is that against counter-top it is that you pay mana upfront rather than when you blow it up so that you can maximize damage against counter-top. It is also harder to produce two colors than one and losing because you don't draw a fetch is terrible.

My meta is almost all Merfolk, Counter-top, and combo, so this board is to combat that.

Any thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Reckless Abandon: it also saves your Hellsparks from path/swords.

Powder Keg:
@ 2 vs. Counter-top blow it on 2 taking their counterbalance

Any thoughts?

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Yes, Reckless Abandon is a Sorcery, and Powder Keg doesn't hit Enchantments.

Powder Keg has many nifty uses, but unfortunately, beating Counterbalance isn't one of them. They are useful against:

*Aggro decks running or possibly boarding in artifact shenanigans like Jitte, Chalice etc. Either you destroy their "answer", or you use it as a creature sweeper in case they didn't draw/board it. So it's very useful as "insurance" for game 2.
*Ichorid and anything with Empty the Warrens as a wincon.
*Stax (hitting Chalice, Mox and manlands) and stompy shells in general
*Raffinity

I run 2 in my board, but if I ran a splash build they would probably be EE instead. You loose the ability to hit manlands, but gain the ability to hit enchantments - which is useful even with Grips (especially in game 2 if you don't really know what they might board in). The added mana investment at 1 and 2 is compensated by being a full turn faster.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

Yes, Reckless Abandon is a Sorcery, and Powder Keg doesn't hit Enchantments.

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Funny, after playing this in a four round tournament I figure somebody would have noticed that. Guess I am completely wrong on Abandon. Though the keg is still great in many matchups.

I really like Sullivan's list. I think his creatures are just what this deck needs. I've been playing Keldon Marauders but i haven't been loving them. Maybe the switch to Lavamancer is what i've been looking for, anyone else have any success with the 'mancer?

I played mancers with Kiln Fiends as my only other creatures. Was pretty fun. Fast. I should pick that up again.


15 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
//\\
// Creatures
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Emberwilde Augur
//\\
// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
4 Manamorphose
2 Searing Blaze
3 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Incinerate
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Krosan Grip
2 Forest
1 Shattering Spree

Quote:

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Originally Posted by コーヒー

I really like Sullivan's list. I think his creatures are just what this deck needs.

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You mean apart from the fact that he tells us that they aren't in his own tournament report?

@mujadaddy: Argh, my eyes! That's a pretty awful list, wouldn't you agree?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by urdjur

You mean apart from the fact that he tells us that they aren't in his own tournament report?

@mujadaddy: Argh, my eyes! That's a pretty awful list, wouldn't you agree?

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That's not what he said. What he said was that Marauder should be main over Kiln Fiend and Kiln Fiend in the board. I tested and definitely agree with Marauder main. Kiln Fiend in the board I'm still not sold on.

I have two simple questions. Since a strength of burn has always seemed, to me atleast, that it can do other things while simultaneously burning the opponent. This was why I was suprised to see a lack of searing blaze in these maindeck lists. Even if it needs a creature to target, wouldnt searing as a two of in the main be good. Also, I was wondering if Runeflare Trap had been discussed as an option to bring in against ANT and thresh.

The only card that grants that ANT or Thresh "draw 3 or more cards" are Brainstorm. If he doesn't play it. You need double cantrip in his turn to play Runeflare paying the alternative cost.

Ponder and Preordain draw one, Ad Nauseam and tutors draw 0.

I think that don't worth the slot.