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I would still count Spell Snare for the mid-late game, too, as it keeps it strength.
It's cheaper to snare a CB than wasting an EE for it and I'd prefer to save the WoG/EE for Mongoose and snare the Goyf instead.
It not only gains you tempo but saves you the "better" overall solutions for when you really need them.
"counterspell gets incrementally stronger" - Mister Agent
I strongly disagree with that statement. Counterspell has the same effectiveness early game as it does late game. I would agree that it becomes fundamentally easier to cast later game then early and thus in appearance is stronger, but to me minus the exception of come into play effects/ instants/ sorcery counterspell isn't truly any better then vindicate. This to me is because vindicate has the option to not only be a reaction based card, but it can also be proactive which are things that Landstill needs. cards like Vindicate, Vendillion clique, spell snare. They are all extremely powerful tools that also allow landstill to gain CA tempo quicker and more efficiently then say Counterspell which is at best a reactive 1-1 that is outshined by the second best counter in the format "spell snare" 10 fold.
Now for your argument against Negate. Negate's weakness is its lack of creature targeting. It is substantially better for landstills mana curver but it still does the same basic principle that counterspell has when it comes down to a reactive 1-1. I don't like either choice and I really encourage all landstill players to stay away from 2 drops as much as possible. EE should basicly be the only 2 drop in your deck other then Standstill.
Counterspell gets better as the stuff it counters gets better. Countering a second turn Piledriver is a lot weaker than a fifth turn SGC. It does get stronger later in the game.
Vendillion Clique is weak in Landstill. In a deck like Threshold, it is a nice disruption card that adds a 3 power flier to your clock. In Landstill, the body isn't really relevant, it just gives the opponent something to target with their removal. The effect isn't even that powerful. Thoughtseizing them and then making them draw is pretty weak at 3 mana.
Negate sucks. Well, it doesn't suck but when there is Counterspell in the format for the same mana, it sucks. Build your mana base correctly, fetch correctly, and mulligan correctly will allow you to get UU on turn two and WW on turn four.
Well I am glad some people still agree with me after not being able to post that much on here. Props to Jak.
Anyway, back on topic.
@Mossivo: I wasn't really suggesting that Counterspell was a bad early game card. Of course, counterspell is good in the early game if you have enough blue. However, against a deck like countertop; I'd rather have spell snare in the early game compared to counterspell. Especially, when you can still leave a land open for a daze when your responding to either a counterbalance or tarmogoyf. You don't really have a ton of room to maneuver around when your playing against good threshold players.
As for negate, you can pretty much counter most of the primary spells and more with spell snare. Especially with all of those playable two cc cards in this format spell snare just seems more practical to contemplate.
That example is poor because of the efficiency of spells in legacy. Game breaking spells in this format generally cost 4cc or less to be truly playable. Realistically if counterspell is most powerful late game then it would be a horrid choice to play in this metagame where spell snare IS the second best counter in the format because of the number of threats with cc4 or less games do not have the same inevitability that they once had. So counterspell in essence would be a poor choice to play, especially in a meta full of wasteland/ stifle/ blood moon "effects/ sinkhole that happen all on t1-2-3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Nice glass half-empty approach. You bother to drown out the card but you only briefly outline why said card could actually be slightly good. Anyone who plays landstill with ANY regularity understands why vendillion is impressive and its really throwing the card under a bus to say that its just another removable body/bad thoughtseize. You obviously haven't tested it at all, and I would really recommend you remove your head from ass before stating that its strictly bad for this archtype/meta.Quote:
Vendillion Clique is weak in Landstill. In a deck like Threshold, it is a nice disruption card that adds a 3 power flier to your clock. In Landstill, the body isn't really relevant, it just gives the opponent something to target with their removal. The effect isn't even that powerful. Thoughtseizing them and then making them draw is pretty weak at 3 mana.
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Negate sucks. Well, it doesn't suck but when there is Counterspell in the format for the same mana, it sucks. Build your mana base correctly, fetch correctly, and mulligan correctly will allow you to get UU on turn two and WW on turn four.
Negate doesn't suck for dakkon's deck because of the extra removal he runs to deal with the lack of hard creature counter he has. Negate is easier on his curve so that he doesn't have problems with stifle/wasteland/blood moon/ vindicate/sinkhole ect. For a quick referance its post 1329.
When was I disputing Spell Snare? I think it SHOULD be run. If you didn't understand that well, I will repeat. Counterspell is better than Negate. I don't care if you run more removal. That is like saying you want to play Duress over Thoughtseize because you run sooo much removal. Build a better mana base if you can't get to the UU.
Okay, tell me what Vendillion clique does in Landstill. I really want to hear why you think it is so good. Do you play it at instant speed to block an attacker? Do you play it after they draw to get rid of their Goyf? What?
I apologize. Snarkiness removed.
@Jak
In mono blue, without a doubt CS is better than Negate. I'm playing MWC. Why on earth would CS be better than Negate in MWC? This discussion may be better suited for that thread. Saying "you don't care" means you are ignoring my testing and performance results and you are also refusing to collect your own data. I'm defending the card because it's been working well for me. I'm not saying you can't design a mana base that can support UU and WW consistently when facing mana denial aggro; I'm just taking another approach.
Duress vs Thoughtseize? As a vintage player, I played Duress over Thoughtseize when Gush was legal. You know why? Because TS sucks with Fastbond. So yes, a card can have its "drawback" alleviated depending on the deck.
Just a friendly reminder to keep your heads cool while discussing what particular type of fantasy-themed collectible gaming card to stick in your favourite pile of fantasy-themed collectible gaming cards.
There are a variety of uses for Vendillion. I encourage you to test extensively in permission slots or utility slots and see for yourself. It's also a random game winner based on post board lack of removal. It's also easily sideable if you need it to be against decks that run mogg fanatic or spot removal like fire/ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
If your deck is MWC... please go post in a different thread then. Anyway, I looked at your list and your mana base could easily be made to support it. However, you want to take a different approach :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by dakkon
This is Legacy where creatures are much more important and that is why having Counterspell over Negate is huge. But like you said, your deck isn't Landstill so whatever.
Mossivo
I have tested it and it was just lacking. I would rather run a better win condition or I would rather run better disruption. It is that simple. Hell, I would run Esper Charm over it.Quote:
There are a variety of uses for Vendillion. I encourage you to test extensively in permission slots or utility slots and see for yourself. It's also a random game winner based on post board lack of removal. It's also easily sideable if you need it to be against decks that run mogg fanatic or spot removal like fire/ice.
Clique is proactive disruption, which is exactly why it cant be ran over Counterspell in Landstill. Clique, if anything, should only be ran in addition to 3 Spell Snares/Counterspells and 4 Force of Wills.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Hi,
I on a completly other note... I tested yersterday with my Wish build against Merfolk. The intresting part was that we both sided out our Standstills...
I play a classic Wis MD with 24 lands with 4 Factory, Dustbowl, Tolaria West and Academy Ruins. One Dragon and 2 Decree of Justice.
My reason for boarding it out, it forces me to try and stop a turn 1 AEther Vial or having 4 dead cards in my hand. On top of that has this deck enough other ways of gaining card-advantage, Wrath of God, EE.
His reasoning was, that I could play under Standstill better then he( He played 4 Vials, 4 Wastes and 3 Factories.
My exact boarding was -4 Standstill, -1 Counterspell, +3 Engineerd Plague( only room for 2) +2 Ajani Goldmane.
How would you guys board?
BB
Just like you did. You could leave one random Standstill in for when you have wrath-cleared the board on turn 12 to maintain your dominant position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
-4 SS is just fine though.
I keep standstills in in nearly every matchup. It´s our best card and you should always keep 2-3 in. Like geoff said, I´d side out Forces and Snares for as much removal as you can get. For reference, here´s my list:
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [OV] Plains
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tundra
3 [6E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Swamp (2)
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [7E] Counterspell
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Open Slot
F.E. against merrows I´d side like this: -4 Force -1 CS -2 Relic -1 Snare + 4 PLagues +4 Finks
I really like your build. Though is finks > ajani? in your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
After a long time where I didn't play any tournaments I changed my decklist. I was very happy with the old one but there are some new cards which have to be played but I'm not very happy with it. First, the list:
Lands (23):
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
More Mana + win (2):
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Crucible of Worlds
Win (4):
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Draw (8):
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
Counter (9):
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Removal (14):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
2 Vindicate
2 Humility
Sideboard (15):
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane
4 Meddling Mage
(Old decklist found here)
1. The manabase
With MD Vindicate I need black mana almost every game and it's not a little splash for SB Extirpate and a third colour for Extirpate. The manabase looks very fragile and I'm playing only 23 lands. The old one has seven basic lands and 24 lands. I played against Dragon Stompy and some kind of mana denial fish (Stifle, Wasteland and Extirpate) and did not have any problems. That was very cool but now i fear to be colourscrewed too often only by my own bad manabase.
2. Vindicate
I only wished for Return to Dust (and sometimes Extirpate) so I decided to play without a wishboard to have a better use of my sideboard. Because of the lack of artifact and enchantment removal I added Vindicate. Playing Vindicate on a problematic Artifact/Enchantment sounds cooler than wishing for a four-mana card. But Vindicate requires a heavier black-splash and I want to play a basic Swamp because Vindicate is my only solution against a pre-board resolved Blood Moon.
3. Blue cards
Only 17 left (over twenty in the old list). It makes FoW suck.
4. Crucible, Eternal Dragon, DoJ and Elspeth
In my opinion DoJ and Elspeth are too good to play only one but with Dragon and Crucible as alternative winoptions its way too much. I don't want to cut Dragon and Crucible because my manabase would be more fragile.
Any suggestments to improve this list? I want to be prepared against Counterbalance, manadenial and random aggro-decks in the MD. Against Combo, Loam and Survival it should be enough to play something in SB. I think Ichorid, Sui and Goblins aren't played much in my meta (Iserlohn, Germany).
Another way to answer Blood Moon is to run a basic Plains, a basic Island and have a non basic in play, that way, you can cast EE for 3 to destroy Blood Moon.
Thats one of those plays that makes you smile alittle as a landstill player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
The other one would be Relic'ing your own instant
aka
Fof
Swords
Force of will
spell snare. ect. ect.
and then wishing for it. That ALWAYS is fun to do to mantain control of a game. It's soo funny to do.
or just the play on my signature. I just did it for the first time recently. It was the ballz.
Mine is use Ajani to make 20+/20+ token.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
lol's Yeah that can be cute. I've won once like that and it was funny that they could just do nothing, but loose. haha.