[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by jandax

@Media: Care to post a list? 4 wastes and 2 bogs? I mean I know Zoo can be tuned to stand up to Lands, especially if a developed scene hasn't hated the deck out. I'm just curious as my own list has PoP to combat lands, and that's about it.

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// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [PT] Mountain (1)
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
1 [SHM] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Savannah
3 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
3 [LG] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon

I may change the 3 sb blood moons to jotun grunts, as they splash damage lands while still annoying other GY-reliant decks. (re-using watses/canopys is also clutch, in addition to getting basics back in the deck against lands' ghost quarters)

IMHO, PoP just isnt that good against lands after g1, as most all alnds players run some number of zuran orbs and glacial chasms (both tutorable w/ tolaria west) sb or (!!!) main. Good lands players will gain life as they go to avoid a k grip on orb w/ 10 non-basics out. Pop will go a fair distance to winning G1, but something like ruination/armageddon+ exile GY effect or grunt+ another hate effect is needed to take the W.

From Matt Elias' new article at http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...Hive_Mind.html

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People want to sit down and ask, “Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx?” The answer is “yes.” The question is contextual. Until you understand that, you’re playing the game but not getting the game. I wouldn’t have won that Legacy Open without Steppe Lynx, but right now, you probably don’t want to play that card.

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Obviously, a lot of people don't like Lynx for various reasons, but what specific difference in the metagame today is he referring to which makes this an undesirable inclusion?

I've played Zoo for a while in my local meta and have done pretty good. That was, however, untill recently when 5 persons in my meta (out of 15) switched to a weird combo deck that I've never seen before. The deck is a storm kind of combo deck that uses Nefarious Lich combined with lifegain to draw a bunch of cards and then go off. I can't seem to win against this deck and I have a 0-5 record against it. I don't know if it's a rogue deck or not, but perhaps you can help me anyway? Should I just switch deck or do you know any good sb cards I can use against it?

With m11 arrived i want to use the sword of Vengeance with my stoneforge mystic package giving trample to a guy is worth alot.

Switch. Some decks are just not as good at handling combo. It's not that it's an autoloss, but why bring a knife to a gun fight? Using what you've got involves the entirety of Legacy, not just one archetype. If more than a third of the meta (assuming some folks are playing other combo decks) are playing combo, then adjust your strategy to defeat that meta.

EDIT: How much is Trample worth? 6 mana (i.e. two full turns worth of mana)? Again, Rancor's there if you want it. It'll be interesting to see what works better.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

With m11 arrived i want to use the sword of Vengeance with my stoneforge mystic package giving trample to a guy is worth alot.

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I'll be sure to test it out, but I don't think it's any better than our existing options.

Against aggro, you'd prefer Jitte or Collar because they're capable of removing creatures and gaining life without the huge tempo sink. The Sword of Vengeance first strike, vigilance, +2/+0, and trample certainly help during combat if it sticks and you're not already in striking distance.

Against control, I don't think Sword of Vengeance helps you race any better than Jitte can. You'd also prefer Sword of Fire/Ice or Light/Shadow for its protection ability and cheaper equipment cost.

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Originally Posted by Enfex

I've played Zoo for a while in my local meta and have done pretty good. That was, however, untill recently when 5 persons in my meta (out of 15) switched to a weird combo deck that I've never seen before. The deck is a storm kind of combo deck that uses Nefarious Lich combined with lifegain to draw a bunch of cards and then go off. I can't seem to win against this deck and I have a 0-5 record against it. I don't know if it's a rogue deck or not, but perhaps you can help me anyway? Should I just switch deck or do you know any good sb cards I can use against it?

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Don't feed the troll. Who let Cavius back in here?

Sword of vengeance would teeter on playable if the equip cost was 2. At six mana, a single removal spell double-time walk's you. It doesn't even have to be instant speed, as they can just eat the damage, chain lightning it (as it gains no toughness, nor does it get akroma's prot R/B.) The next series of swords in Scars may be worth including if they're as powerful as SOLS and SOFI. IMHO collar at 3 total play+equip is better than vengeance, with the added bonus of making your (everything) trade with goyf at a gain, and the prospect of a deathtouch, lifelink lavamancer.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

With m11 arrived i want to use the sword of Vengeance with my stoneforge mystic package giving trample to a guy is worth alot.

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Sorry, but why not play Behemoth Sledge instead?

I played an experimental Zoo list with Survival of the Fittest to a third-place finish (5-1 record) at last Sunday's Hassloch Legacy Event (48 players). Report and some notes on how the Tech worked out here.

Will test on a perhaps very radical build which uses Kiln Fiend, Rancor and Collosal Might. Will post results.

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Originally Posted by Media314r8

I may change the 3 sb blood moons to jotun grunts, as they splash damage lands while still annoying other GY-reliant decks. (re-using watses/canopys is also clutch, in addition to getting basics back in the deck against lands' ghost quarters

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I think Magus of the moon is the best option against lands, and is actually very useful in a lot of other matchups. Particularly, it's useful versus NO-progenitus builds of countertop as they tend to only run 1 forest, thus cutting them off GG if you kill the hierarches too. In addition, you can bring it in versus control to sometimes catch their mana off-guard and turn off man-lands and ruins. While blood moon is better in those other matchups, the magus is better versus lands particularly, because they have much fewer outs to him versus blood moon.

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Sorry, but why not play Behemoth Sledge instead?

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It doesnt just give trample, it gives haste, First Strike and Vigilance as well as pumping the creatures power.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

I think Magus of the moon is the best option against lands, and is actually very useful in a lot of other matchups. Particularly, it's useful versus NO-progenitus builds of countertop as they tend to only run 1 forest, thus cutting them off GG if you kill the hierarches too. In addition, you can bring it in versus control to sometimes catch their mana off-guard and turn off man-lands and ruins. While blood moon is better in those other matchups, the magus is better versus lands particularly, because they have much fewer outs to him versus blood moon.

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I play flame jab in my lands deck, as does menendian, and I would assume, most lands players at the gp, where zoo and goblins will be played heavily. (each of which are, conventional wisdom says, more likely to want a grey-ogre form of hate than an enchantment) It can be dredged in the bin and cast, while K grip requires both their basic forest/mox and it to be manually drawn. Against other decks, the worst thing to ever to hear in response to cating magus is "in response, float W." In goblins, (or any deck playing vial for that matter,) I would say magus is the pick, as Bant/NOProg don't usually float white in response to matrons being vialed in, so having vial's ability resolve and their lands all suddenly don't tap for swords mana better protects magus.

Again, I may yet cut the moon effects for grunts, as they do well against more than just lands, which will undoubtedly be at the top tables, but not as heavily played as say, other zoo decks or endless horizons, which grunt does something against.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

It doesnt just give trample, it gives haste, First Strike and Vigilance as well as pumping the creatures power.

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...because you will be casting a relevant creature before you tap three lands to equip sword. Can we please end this debate? Loxodon warhammer and sledge are probably better at both racing opposing aggro, and against storm based combo than sword, and they hardly warrrent discussion because of their equip costs.

I'd like some critique of my list going into tournaments the next couple weekends.

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kird Ape
2 Figure of Destiny - Still think this guy is underrated on the source. He should fit in the curve since I'm not packing maindeck equipment, and will help out in the mirror.
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Woolly Thoctar/Knight of the Reliquary - Undecided here. I've always been a fan of Thoctar because he can swing right away for 5 even if my graveyard is land light. I don't have many other cards to abuse Knight, although I recognize how beastly he can become.

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix - I expect to see a lot of Zoo mirror, so I think this is better than Fireblast.
2 Price of Progress - I also expect 43Lands to show up, as well as decent amount of control. 2 feels like the right amount maindeck.

2 Sylvan Library - Good against control and the mirror.

4 Wooded Foothills - Pretty typical manabase.
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg - Against control and the possibility of combo.
2 Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon - Since Reanimator is no longer fotm, I cut Faerie Macabre. I think 4 graveyard hate should be enough.
1 Stoneforge Mystic - My aggro equipment set.
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basalisk Collar

Any comments?

Knights works well with Horizon Canopy, and can reset your topdeck after you use Library. I also like the otherwise random ability to sweep the yard with Bojuka Bog, though I'm not sure if I'd actually sideboard a Bog just for that. It's certainly a cute trick.

Another problem with Thoctar is the three colored mana symbols.

I've been thinking that Figure deserves a little more love too, though I certainly understand how horrible the math looks in a vacuum. In the context of a deck though, who knows. Please let us know how he performs for you.

Re: Canopy, is anyone NOT using them? Some have opined that they should not be used since they don't help Apes, Nacatls, etc. Since Knight is increasingly becoming the preferred three-drop though, the synergy there could overshadow such downsides.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: one of the biggest reasons Figure is so good is that he gets past Rhox War Monk, Wild Nacatl, opposing Apes/Lions, 3/4 Goyfs, etc. as long as you have 3 mana open. You don't have to pump unless they block. The 2 damage goes through and you can continue to play out your curve as you would normally.

Of course he's still a Pouncing Jaguar in the early turns... but later on he's a real threat unlike Ape/Lion, which more than makes up for it.

That said, you don't often want to see multiples, so I wouldn't recommend 4.

I completely agree on figure. I've been running him for a long time as a 1-of instead of the 4th kird ape, and am never not happy to see him. His ability to get large is way more relevant than in that draw his mana-intensity would matter. I would never remove him and may consider a 2nd sometime, but for now I'm happy with 1.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Knights works well with Horizon Canopy, and can reset your topdeck after you use Library. I also like the otherwise random ability to sweep the yard with Bojuka Bog, though I'm not sure if I'd actually sideboard a Bog just for that. It's certainly a cute trick.

Another problem with Thoctar is the three colored mana symbols.

I've been thinking that Figure deserves a little more love too, though I certainly understand how horrible the math looks in a vacuum. In the context of a deck though, who knows. Please let us know how he performs for you.

Re: Canopy, is anyone NOT using them? Some have opined that they should not be used since they don't help Apes, Nacatls, etc. Since Knight is increasingly becoming the preferred three-drop though, the synergy there could overshadow such downsides.

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I dont not play the canopy, I do play 12 fetches with 4 lynxes, 2 knights and 2 sylvans. The knights have doing awesome for me same with the Lynxes and Sylvan, A resolved Sylvan has won pretty much every none-combo matchup i have played. Draws extra cards and filter the draws without any extra mana investment

I have played with the Figure of Destiny before and i found him doing great, playing a stoneforge mystic package atm with jitte, SOFI and SOLS and a collar and a jitte in the board. Probly going to play with figure some more in the future.

I've been playing around with my flex spots recently (where most people would play Apes/Lions/FoDs). I've been putting in cards that I wouldn't mind drawing a single copy of, but wouldn't want to see multiple copies either--stuff like Sylvan Library, Fireblast, etc.

I have an idea that seems really weak on paper at first, and I wouldn't be surprised if I get laughed out of this thread for suggesting it. That being said, here it is: Quirion Ranger

The reason why I think it would be useful is that if it lands, you can ensure that you don't get blown out by Wasteland or Rishadan Port. It also has synergy with Steppe Lynx, Grim Lavamancer, and Knight of the Reliquary, and if nothing else, gives one of your creatures pseudo-vigilance. It's also handy if you're mana screwed and need to generate extra mana in a pinch.

Obviously, none of these effects are gamebreaking or even impressive on their own. But might the benefit of smoothing out these occasional problems worth swapping out a single copy of one of those (pretty lame) 2/3s for a 1/1?

I'm pretty new to Zoo but I've been thinking of running a set of Living Wishes in my Sylvan Library slot and dropping 1 Fireblast. I was going to put some mix of Gaddock Teeg, Faerie Macabre, Ethersworn Canonist, Kitchen Finks, Quasali Pridemage, Bojuka Bog and Maze of Ith in the board. Tell me what you think, I'm sure it's at the cost of effeciency and possibly a bad idea overall.

Pridemages should be maindecked, unless you're going about a metagame specific build. Kitchen finks just aren't what the deck needs for 3 mana, Maze of Ith too, unless agian, it's a metagame call.

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Originally Posted by jandax

Pridemages should be maindecked, unless you're going about a metagame specific build. Kitchen finks just aren't what the deck needs for 3 mana, Maze of Ith too, unless agian, it's a metagame call.

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I'm planning on maindecking 3 Pridemages and sb 1 for the wish. Yeah, Kitchen Finks I'm not too sure about either. Maze of Ith is definately a metagame call. Right now I'm more concerned with the question if Living Wish is a viable option, at all. I've seen some builds running Survival of the Fittest recently, but I'd rather have a toolbox that won't affect the MD as much.

A deck's consistency might be more valuable than a toolbox. I eschewed my SFM toolbox for 3 REB's

You might as well run a Jitte instead of Wish, because that's 2 mana plus whatever spell you fetch to cast. Might as well have an immediate impact on the board

I too have been wondering about increasing the trickiness of the deck while minimizing the impact on its consistency and overall speed. The first option is to up Knight to three and have one each Karakas and Bojuka sideboarded. The other idea was to take out Library and add Fauna Shaman in its place. You're actually increasing threat density while adding the ability to field all of your Goyfs and Knights if you're behind on the field, or find Pridemages if you need removal. The problem is that you can't dig for burn if you need a direct solution, but then Library can only look three deep.

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Originally Posted by jandax

A deck's consistency might be more valuable than a toolbox. I eschewed my SFM toolbox for 3 REB's

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Are you SBing anything against the mirror/aggro?

Lynxs are great for those matchups. The mirror is so uncommon, and other agro matchups are assisted by removal that I wouldn't change anything in my 75 unless people pick up other decks en mass.

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Originally Posted by jandax

Lynxs are great for those matchups. The mirror is so uncommon, and other agro matchups are assisted by removal that I wouldn't change anything in my 75 unless people pick up other decks en mass.

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Lynx is great against agro matches?

Where it dies to: a Lavamancer activation, a single Jitte counter, Gempalm w/ 1 Gob on board, and any traditionally used removal (Bolts, Plows, Paths). I'll admit Loam Lion and Kird Ape aren't astronomically better, but Lynx is at it's worst versus agro, your reply didn't make much sense.

I guess if you're just saying that you're the only agro deck in your meta, than I can see your logic in running Lynx and not devoting SB space to agro matches. In an unknown/diverse meta I don't think that's the best plan.

Lynx puts you as the aggressor from the start. All your creatures die to some common form of removal, so getting in there for 4 or 5 before they do is great. Obv they get worse on the draw but the principle is to fight fire with bigger fire. That's just me, though. No one I ever faced was like "Yay! Turn 1 Lynx!" Litterally. That is sort of suspicious...

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

You're actually increasing threat density while adding the ability to field all of your Goyfs and Knights if you're behind on the field, or find Pridemages if you need removal.

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Should you not call it threat quality (or something)? I mean you have to discard a creature, to get another creature.

And have you tested Fauna Shaman? Because you cant use the mana for other things like burning a creature or whatever i wonder if it wouldn't actually be bad for consistency.

@Jandax I see that you're from Utrecht and I know that Zoo isn't that popular in Holland. But in most metagames it is.
Nobody is happy about a turn 1 Nacatl either so thats not really an issue. A topdecked Lynx is terrible and lynx builds do not win from the non lynx builds.

So based on everyone's suggestion, we should start with this metagamed Zoo skeleton:
4x Living Wish
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Wasteland
4x Squadron Hawk
4x Fireblast
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Jitte
1x SOFI

:laugh:

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Originally Posted by Nelis

@Jandax I see that you're from Utrecht and I know that Zoo isn't that popular in Holland. But in most metagames it is.
Nobody is happy about a turn 1 Nacatl either so thats not really an issue. A topdecked Lynx is terrible and lynx builds do not win from the non lynx builds.

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You got that right, I've been playing legacy for close to a year and I've never sat down across from another Zoo deck. And I never felt a Lynx was a bad topdeck, as I use fetchlands sparingly because i run it so having an extra fetch or two down already in the middle of the game makes it not so dead a draw. Never what I hope for, obviously, but I've been pleased with it so far. Zoo isn't popular here, nor can it sweep any given tournament. It is a deck I enjoy playing while I'm learning this format.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

So based on everyone's suggestion, we should start with this metagamed Zoo skeleton:
4x Living Wish
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Wasteland
4x Squadron Hawk
4x Fireblast
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Jitte
1x SOFI

:laugh:

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Why would you run Fauna Shaman when Survival of the Fittest strictly better? You can activate Survival more than once a turn, and it's not attached to a body so it can't be burned... I'm still trying to figure out if this post is a joke or not.

It is a joke.

By the way, I was referring to threat density in terms of more creatures to field, when considering Shaman vs Library. And no I haven't tested it. But I wouldn't use 4 in the deck either.

This list just got 1st in the Japanese Champs. Big Zoo /w Elspeth.


4xWindswept Heath
4xWooded Foothills
1xArid Mesa
2xTaiga
2xPlateau
1xSavannah
1xTropical Island
1xVolcanic Island
3xWasteland
1xSkarrg, the Rage Pits
1xForest
1xPlains

4xWild Nacatl
3xGrim Lavamancer
3xNoble Hierarch
4xQasali Pridemage
4xTarmogoyf
4xKnight of the Reliquary

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning
4xPath to Exile
2xSylvan Library
2xElspeth, Knight-Errant

SB:
3xTormod's Crypt
3xRed Elemental Blast
4xMeddling Mage
3xPyroblast
2xKrosan Grip


I think this is serious evidence of Elspeth's impact on the Zoo deck, note the other Zoo in the top 8 also played it. Noble Hierarch sticks out, but I think it makes alot of sense. Casting Elspeth becomes faster, Exalted "wins" the mirror, and Mana is always good. I can imagine him being much better than Kird Ape at least. I really like this list, it seems good in the Mirror and against Countertop. What does every1 think?

This looks like Rubin Zoo of last year's PT that Kibler won; making the main deck bigger and sideboard more resilient. It could be some good tech in a metagame full of ground pounders. Not much more I can contribute, I haven't played the list but I have saved it for future reference. Innovation is necessary

Deck list above looks like a weird shade of a Bant deck without blue :rolleyes: I don't see any reasons for this change, since you're basically moving away from the real agressive strategy that Zoo is known for. I also don't see why you'd make your mana base even worse with a single tropical island for a SB Mage. Noble Hierarch for example is never going to be as great as she is in UGW bant/aggro decks where she gives way more options and where she fits perfectly in the whole strategy. I don't know, to me it seems like the above list prays for something that it just isn't.

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Originally Posted by Deady

Deck list above looks like a weird shade of a Bant deck without blue :rolleyes:

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Completely devoid of content.

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I don't see any reasons for this change, since you're basically moving away from the real agressive strategy that Zoo is known for.

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Again, no content. What changes? Elaborate, don't assume we know what you're talking about

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I also don't see why you'd make your mana base even worse with a single tropical island for a SB Mage

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There are two blue lands. Volcanic and Trop. Meddling Mage is at least a solid SB card. Do you think otherwise?

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Noble Hierarch for example is never going to be as great as she is in UGW bant/aggro decks where she gives way more options and where she fits perfectly in the whole strategy.

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Why? Apart from not tapping for Red mana, what is different? Getting more Exalted triggers in the Zoo deck is good, and she accelerates this deck just as well as Bant for the most part. I would contest that certain lines of play feature Hierarch helping this deck just as much as she does bant.

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I don't know, to me it seems like the above list prays for something that it just isn't.

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Winning a massive tournament in Japan proves that the deck is very good. Maybe you're just stuck in your ways.

Actually it does not prove that in the least.

For simplicity sake let us imagine a meta game of 15 decks composed of all islands and this deck... clearly it will win... Yes I understand I am over simplifying it but the point is it really does not prove a single thing. It could easily be a statistical anamoly or he could have picked the right deck for the meta.... Simple as that.

Lesson to all those who want to improve their game: Don't think like Deady