Miracle Control

The format is completely ripe for the picking from good ol' Pyroclasm it's not even funny. I was thinking what type of deck I'd want to run, maybe some sort of RUG Control deck, but Miracles is also in a sweet spot, so to speak, to adapt to the changing format.

Any deck running Thalia, Teeg, Revokers, etc. is going to be hard to win against since all of our main threats cost more than 4 or have X in the casting cost. That's just the way it is. If you don't want to lose to Thalia.deck, running the black version might be prudent. Why? Thoughtseize to grab Teeg early on, then run 4 Dread of Night in the board. If you're really worried, that's how you run that gameplan, if you're so worried/have a hostile metagame. I blew through several tournaments X-O-Y without encountering Maverick, then got nutkicked in 2 games by a derdly Maverick player. Dark Depths combo is also a thing that we struggle against if you don't have the Swords, your Top is Needled, and your Karakas got Wastelanded.

I think in a meta with more blue and combo, and especially more Tempo, I'd want the Red Splash. Maybe it's better, maybe it's just personal preference. Against Combo in general, you just run 1-2 Cannonist and I have the Tutors to fetch them. That's usually game over. Flusterstorm also helps. Against OmniTell, running Red Elemental Blast really helps as well.

The red splash is also better against Delver Tempo decks. Pyroclasm blows out whatever arrangement you're facing, whether it be Geists and Delvers, or the most Nimble of Mongeese and Delvers. Pyroclasm cleans up most of the format, including Deathrite, Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, and a few other cards when Rest in Peace is out.

Blood Moon also combats all the 3 and 4 colour decks running few basics. It also combats the Dark Depths combo out of a few decks, and helps against the Punishing Fires gameplan of some decks. It's just really good right now.

Black has its advantages. Notion Thief, Dread of Night, Thoughtseize, Engineered Plague, etc. all have lots of value against the decks in the format as well. I just don't know if they're AS good or BETTER for a general, open meta. The decision is of course much easier if you what decks are present and in what number.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

The red splash is also better against Delver Tempo decks. Pyroclasm blows out whatever arrangement you're facing, whether it be Geists and Delvers, or the most Nimble of Mongeese and Delvers. Pyroclasm cleans up most of the format, including Deathrite, Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, and a few other cards when Rest in Peace is out.

-Matt

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Pyroclasm doesn't do much against BUG. I once resolved RiP and I just nuked the board with mass removal, BUG climbed right back when it resolves a Jace or Ancestral Vision or a Shardless. Yes, Pyroclasm cleans up all those creatures, so does Termius and Supreme Verdict. In this match-up, Pyroclasm doesn't offer more, it actually offers less since you can do the same with just traditional W and U, why make yourself more vulnerable to wasteland by using a 3rd color just for Pyroclasm in this match-up?

The best justification to run Red against BUG is the blasts against Jace/Vision and Blood Moon against its Mana base. Even then, I've heard too many reports stating Blood Moon is too difficult to make an impact. The earlier you resolve Blood Moon, more powerful it would get. Yet, since most lists only have 1 Blood Moon, it's even harder to resolve it early. Even if you do get to play it early, you pretty much lock yourself from Top-Breaking Fetch to shuffle.

Remember that blow-out captured on SCG: Notion Thief in response to BUG's Jace brainstorm, find a StP from the stolen brainstorm, remove BUG's blocker and kill BUG's Jace on your own turn? Arguably, that's a better hoser than Pyroclasm.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Pyroclasm doesn't do much against BUG. I once resolved RiP and I just nuked the board with mass removal, BUG climbed right back when it resolves a Jace or Ancestral Vision or a Shardless. Yes, Pyroclasm cleans up all those creatures, so does Termius and Supreme Verdict. In this match-up, Pyroclasm doesn't offer more, it actually offers less since you can do the same with just traditional W and U, why make yourself more vulnerable to wasteland by using a 3rd color just for Pyroclasm in this match-up?

The best justification to run Red against BUG is the blasts against Jace/Vision and Blood Moon against its Mana base. Even then, I've heard too many reports stating Blood Moon is too difficult to make an impact. The earlier you resolve Blood Moon, more powerful it would get. Yet, since most lists only have 1 Blood Moon, it's even harder to resolve it early. Even if you do get to play it early, you pretty much lock yourself from Top-Breaking Fetch to shuffle.

Remember that blow-out captured on SCG: Notion Thief in response to BUG's Jace brainstorm, find a StP from the stolen brainstorm, remove BUG's blocker and kill BUG's Jace on your own turn? Arguably, that's a better hoser than Pyroclasm.

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Problem with the third color in general is that you never want to start by fetching a dual land, especially if you know you're facing a Wasteland deck. The black splash seems worse in that regards, at least if you're plan is to play Thoughtseize on turn 1. Although, I'm doubtful you would even want Thoughtseize in those matchups.

Hard to imagine Notion Thief being a better blow-out than Blood Moon. Both are high-variance, but Blood Moon is cheaper, and they need to have a Deathrite Shaman in play or they have to just scoop. I suppose a resolved Jace could ultimate, or something, but otherwise them not being able to cast spells should just about do it.

When I saw a solid finish for a u/w miracles deck last weekend at the scg open, I was excited to dust off the counterbalances and try it out at my local. Here is what I wound up running to a record of 5-0-1 at last nights tournament (roughly 20 players, 4 rounds swiss, cutting to top 8). I've been following this site since I returned to magic about a year ago, but I had to create a new login to post.

// uw miracles \\
3 snapcaster mage
3 stoneforge mystic

4 top
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
3 force of will
2 counterspell
1 batterskull
1 detention sphere
1 explosives

3 jace

3 terminus
2 entreat

1 mishras
1 ruins
1 karakas
2 tundra
2 volcanic
4 flooded strand
3 arid mesa
2 scalding tarn
5 island
2 plains

// sb \\
2 supreme verdict
3 pyroblast
2 clique
1 venser
1 elspeth
1 tutor
1 blood moon
1 o ring
1 wear/tear
1 feast/famine
1 rest in peace

Up to this point my experience with the deck had always been rip/helm, 3 legend build but I wanted to try out the sfm package because I know my local meta is mostly delver decks (at least 25% of the field) so I wanted access to batterskull/soff. turned out to be a pretty good choice and the deck performed very well even through some sketchy plays due to my performance 'rust'- I hadn't played much more than 15 games the past 2 weeks due to life obligations.

I basically took Steve Wise's list and made very few changes. His list was 61 with 22 land so I first cut the elspeth to trim it to 60. My next change was cutting a force of will for a mishra's factory and swapping a tundra for a karakas. I wanted 23 land in order to ensure I can verdict on time, as well as not NEED to top for lands the first couple of turns - which matters in a fairly quick matchup.

sideboard was pretty much the same, but I had the elspeth over the 2nd tutor. I was debating with myself on the drive to the shop whether I wanted GoST and/or meddling mage on the side. I decided the clique was fine vs combo over GoST and I couldnt really think of what to cut

this was what I would have used in a more combo/midrange environment:

2 geist
3 meddling mage
1 venser
2 pyroblast
2 supreme verdict
1 pithing needle
1 blood moon
1 tutor
1 rest in peace
1 feast/famine

Anyway, I signed up got ready for round 1. I forgot to write down my opponents name, but I have notes from each match and my sideboard strategy.

Round 1: RUG Delver

G1-
I win the die roll, and open g1 with a top into cb but have to fow to protect it. I get pretty low from a delver and mongoose but I manage to rip a terminus on time and he could never resolve anything.

SB: In: 1 soff, 2 supreme, 1 tutor, 1 blood moon, 1 rip, 1 venser, 1 o.ring
Out: 3 force, 3 counterbalance, 2 counterspell

I decided that since I was on the draw, counterbalance might just be too slow and I just wanted all the answers to his creatures, and better access to those answers.

G2-
He opens with 2 consecutive delver flips and is beating my down pretty fast but taps out to play a tarmogoyf. this gives me a chance to dig up my EE with a tutor and deal with both the flipped guys and I go down to 4 before I can plow his goyf and stabilize. It's important to note this game that I almost killed myself by cracking a fetchland in order to equip my batterskull to a snapcaster. Luckily I drew an island and didnt have to, and he wound up having to use his last card to bolt my snapcaster. he whiffed and drew some useless dazes and I evenetually get venser suited up to take me out of red. I was surprised to see he kept lightning bolt in but it almost worked.

1-0, 2-0


Round 2: Mono red burn - goblin guides, lavamancer, 1 million lava spikes.

G1-
I won the die roll again, I plow his t1 goblin guide. Then I drop a T2 counterbalance and blind flip a top on his t2 lavamancer. He never came back.

SB: -1 force, +1 tutor.

G2-
I resolve another early CB and this, combined with 2 brainstorms is ultimately enough to protect my life total. I get a t5-6 batterskull and top into a terminus to counter his desperation fireblast (which wouldnt have really mattered anyway)

2-0, 4-0

Round 3: UWR Delver

Lost the die roll, and it hurt.

G1-
He opens with the typical delver > wasteland >stifle. then follows up with a stoneforge a few turns into it. I wasnt even in this one at all.

SB: In: In: 2 supreme, 1 tutor, 1 blood moon, 1 venser, 1 o.ring, 1 wear/tear, 1 espeth
Out: 3 force, 3 counterbalance, 2 counterspell

similar strat as rug delver, only no color hoser or gy hate, we add wear/tear and an elspeth if it gets grindy.

G2-
I have top on the play and my opponent stumbles at 1 mana after 2 brainstorms. I had to waste 3 swords to plowshares trying to kill a delver. eventually it would get pretty grindy with both of us at 13 or so life, but i resolve a jace which pulls me out ahead after a few turns.

G3-
he opens with a pretty much nut. delver, sfm, geist. I take a beating and go down to 7 before I can supreme verdict and sort of reset. He draws a bunch of lands and eventually casts batterskull. I top deck my own and am even able to plow his germ. we stare at eachother for a few turns trading batterskull hits until i eventually draw an entreat for 4. i wind up finishing him in turns. after that match, I thought i should have brought my soff in so I could gain evasion and protection in the batterskull v batterskull

3-0, 6-1

ID into top 8 3-0-1

top 8: maverick with no black? hatebears, im not sure.

G1-
this guy was a regular and had been playing his deck forever. It was a horde of 2/2s at 2 mana with GSZs and vials, basically a swarming strategy. He developed a great board position, and he tapped out for GSZ to fetch gaddock teeg. I plow at end of turn and then miracle terminus into entreat.

SB: In: 2 supreme verdict, 1 venser, 1 blood moon, 1 wear/tear, 1 tutor
Out: 3 force, 2 counterspell, 1 counterbalance

G2-
He vials out a bunch of guys which include scavenging ooze, stoneforge, thalia, gaddock teeg while i stumble on making land drops. I am 1 mana short of plow teeg, brainstorm into terminus on his upkeep. ah well.

G3-
I open top into one of the cbs left in the deck. he hits another early thalia, but its not as spectacular on the draw. I work around it and he mistakenly attacks into a mishra's with his 2/2. this factory would be enough to prevent him from attacking me for several turns while he build an army. I verdict 3 of his guys and he topdecks vial, land, land, vial.

4-0-1, 8-2-2

top4: Jund

G1-
He gets a deathrite and starts going to pound down with a combination of hymns, decays, thoughtseize, liliana. I feel like i did nothing but the game seemed to take a while.

SB: In: 1 blood moon, 1 o ring

G2-
this matchup seems really bad for me. he opens deathrite and i plow, then he passes on turn 2, so im thinking great, here comes the decay... i just drop a land and decide not to play anything. he then plays liliana and makes us discard, but taps out. I slam blood moon and then the following turn I d. sphere lili. he cant recover and admits to having no bolts, lavamancers, or outs to blood moon.

G3-
I get an early top and we are trading blows, he isnt drawing much discard, so we are doing well. he manages a pretty solid board, but i set up an entreat for 4 which overwhelms him quickly, though he does decay 2 of them. He said that he had a maelstrom pulse in there but never saw it.

5-0-1, 10-3-2

Top2-
it was late, so my friend and I split the prize and went home. Each person that top8s gets a pack as well and I opened a Garruk, caller of beasts so that was a pretty sweet bonus.

I really enjoyed the deck overall, and I have a lot of notes to make tweaks going forward. I definitely like the sideboard, but I sort of want to work leyline of sanctity in their because the discards can be a killer. If I saw any of the shardless decks I imagine staring down many free hymns would not be fun. Ill be working on it the next few nights and mainly testing with my friends who pilot rug delver, shardless, and stoneblade variants.

About the sfm package: I think its overall very strong vs creature decks, and even the midrange to some extent. while i do like the rip version a lot vs the field, the sfm gave me another angle of attack which was great, and sometimes it allowed me to set up some sweet plays. even casting sfm on turn 2 and it getting killed by something is often enough of an incremental gain that it will keep you in the game long enough to take over. playing batterskull lets you use your health as more of a resource and is certainly more reliable than going for the combo kill. plus, decay can really be a bitch if you rely on rip to close the game.

I never saw combo, but I think leylines would be good in that matchup as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Black has its advantages. Notion Thief, Dread of Night, Thoughtseize, Engineered Plague, etc. all have lots of value against the decks in the format as well. I just don't know if they're AS good or BETTER for a general, open meta. The decision is of course much easier if you what decks are present and in what number.

-Matt

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Am I the only one greedily playing UWrb? (I know I'm the only one crazy enough to run a maindeck Sphinx's Revelation, card has been nuts though)

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Originally Posted by jjflipped

Am I the only one greedily playing UWrb? (I know I'm the only one crazy enough to run a maindeck Sphinx's Revelation, card has been nuts though)

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Crazy you say that, on my drive to work I was considering more draw engines. Intuition/AK, going back to the ol' predict. I think I might try 1x sphinx and see what happens. I often find myself hitting 6-7 land when I make it to the late game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiverBoa

I often find myself hitting 6-7 land when I make it to the late game.

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Really? How did that happen? Isn't this scenario way too construced?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Really? How did that happen? Isn't this scenario way too construced?

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not really. typically I dont really have a problem hitting my first 4-5 land drops. then if the game continues, say, 5 more turns ill probably be able to cast it. I was just saying i'd give it a shot and see if it works thats all

I was obviously trolling. Yeah obviously this card is insane when you got quite a lot of lands and stuff. But then we are winning anyways. Plus we got a lot of taxingcounters in this format, which devalidates the card even more. It's just a Win-More card for me - as it does have no Underload (opposite of Overload) - Mode... so I don't really think this is viable at all...

Greetings

I barely took first place at a local tournament by timing R2 against Shardless BUG. I would have lost if it wasn't for time (Tripple AV G1 and Tripple Hymn by T3 on G3). I managed to win G2 by overloading my opponent with Decay targets (RiP, CB, and Shackles). When it came to sideboarding I was faced with a dilemma: Pierce for Hymn or REB for all the rest. I think REB are clearly superior but I couldn't use them effectively without a basic Mountain. I would have also loved to have some Pyroclasms for that matchup but I prefer not to rely on a red card for creature matchups without a basic Mountain because they tend to pack Wastelands. In the end, I went:

2-0 vs. homebrew GW aggro/control
1-1-1 vs. Shardless BUG
2-1 vs. Grixis Pyromancer
2-0 vs. Nic Fit

I feel like Pyroclasm + RiP + REB is the right approach to beating Shardless BUG and that REB could really help in the RUG matchup if you have access to a basic Mountain. Shackles were great every time I had them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jjflipped

Am I the only one greedily playing UWrb? (I know I'm the only one crazy enough to run a maindeck Sphinx's Revelation, card has been nuts though)

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Correct. Wasteland is the bane of my existence.

-Matt

Last week there was a tournament at Knight-Ware. Here are the decklists: http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic...013legacy.html
We had 4 Miracles deck place in the top 9 of the tournament and oarsman/Joe took down the entire tournament.

Decklists varied: I ran the RiP/Helm list that got 5th, Joe ran his traditional list, Danny Batterman ran a 4 Entreat/0 Terminus list that got 6th, and the 9th place list was Esper Miracles.

I played:
1. Sneak and Show with a Black splash (W, 2-0) (Game 1 I took a turn 2 Emrakul hit from Sneak Attack and still won with 1 life remaining. Scary game...)
2. Death and Taxes (D, 1-1-1)
3. Deathblade (W, 2-0)
4. Patriot (W, 2-0)
5. UWr Miracles (against Joe!, W 2-0)
6. Drew into top 8.

I then got stomped in two games against Joe again in the mirror rematch. One interesting thing to note is that I was on the play G2 and after his turn 2, I ET'd for a Blood Moon locked him out of most of his hand. He took the game in the end behind Top and a huge Entreat that he paid for by raw dogging both basic Plains, but Blood Moon did a great job regardless in giving me a huge advantage I couldn't capitalize on.

Here is a video of my recent version of Punishing Miracles vs ANT on modo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkzz3U7h4_w

EDIT: Answered my own question.

-ABC

Quick question for those of you siding Elspeth, Knight-Errant. When do you side her in? I've been siding her vs control mirrors and keeping her out vs most Stoneforge Mystic decks, but honestly haven't seen her in action much and my sample size is rather small. What does everyone here think of the card and how it performs?

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Whoa, didn't even think about my Jace and their Jace with D. Sphere...Sucky. Good thing I don't see other Jace lists...Meh. I've been playing 4/3 CB/FoW as well. It's been doing good against all the fair builds I face as well as allows me to pitch CB to Force without cringing.

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This happened in the first SCG open after the new rules. It was pretty funny to watch.

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Originally Posted by useL

You are probably right. What are the tools to handle BUG/Deathblade to push us back to the top? Or is it just that they are the flavour of the month decks?

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I've been fairly successful against both. Playing more basics than most other decks in the format and fetching for them first means the mana-denial section of their strategy is more or less blanked. Aside from that, hold your removal spells for the most relevant creatures.

Counterbalance can counter the majority of their threats. Yes, they're playing abrupt decay, but I've found that I usually have more targets than they have Decays. Abrupt Decay on Counterbalance isn't so great when I have E Field combo active and vice versa.


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I'll post my list and a report later, but RiP mainboard has been amazing thus far. I've had two matches in the last two tournaments where turn 2 RiP ends their deck (dredge and reanimator) and RUG is severely set back by it.

The aggro matchups have been great. I've been hiding behind "walls" sculpting my hand. Energy Field, even if RiP doesn't make it into play, will buy you several turns in an aggro matchup, just be sure to fetch basics beforehand so they can't crack Field with a wasteland. RiP acts as another such "wall" against RUG. Save your STPs for their Delver, it's the only threat that isn't [almost] blanked by RiP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimp

Quick question for those of you siding Elspeth, Knight-Errant. When do you side her in? I've been siding her vs control mirrors and keeping her out vs most Stoneforge Mystic decks, but honestly haven't seen her in action much and my sample size is rather small. What does everyone here think of the card and how it performs?

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Comes in against fair decks to increase threat count, deal with opposing creatures / Liliana / Jace. Usually only when FoW is coming out. Usually quite good vs stoneforge.

Honestly, wish I had more to say about Miracles at the moment... I'm still playing it as my main go-to (RIP version) and haven't really updated it much recently. I really liked going back up to 23 land and 2 Entreats main, with a 3rd in the SB. Not much else to say really...

Hello everybody, i really don't understand why everybody is playing the RiP version of the deck, in which matchup does it helps? i tested it out a bit but i felt it like a pile of doing-nothings and i think it mulligans really bad in comparison to the standard version, than the combo and control matchups imho get worse.
Am i missing something?

I usually play this list for the standard version:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Wear_Tear
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Terminus

I've been grinding with this on modo for a while now... I really like it. I guess most lists are about the same but I just wanted to point out how much I like Predict and Vedalken Shackles and would like your opinion too (Im biased towards those cards) :)

Without snapcaster mage, shardless agent, manlands or bloodbraid elf we are sometimes forced to burn a plow on something bad or play Terminus for little value, perhaps just to keep Jace Alive for a turn. Shackles solves that. Decay can be painful but I think it's worth it. Vedalken Shackles is why I run a whooping three volcanics and no basic mountain. There are also no ruins/karakas.

Predict is just ancestral recall vs anything but tempo (where it might require to much setup). The deck has so many bad cards g1 and Predict can also be like brainstorm 5-6. I like it over Ponder right now but cases can be made for both. It does not put more pressure on SDT like I first thought. Between jace, brainstorm and blindflips from CB I get to use it for good measure. Sometimes you can ruin someones tutor, sdt-drawing a card or just draw 2 when your opponent flips a delver.

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (6)
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
INSTANTS (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
LANDS (22)
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
5 Island
SIDEBOARD
1 Wear // Tear
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle

I don't really like blood moon with Vedalken shackles but It's our best shot versus 12post and sometimes just win straight up vs I.E Jund.

Other things that might stand out;
No creatures maindeck. Without a critical mass of dorks I think there is no reason to run STP-targets G1. I miss clique a bit from time to time.

Spell Snare over Spell Pierce. Im still not convinced about Spell Pierce.

Grafdigger's cage over relic of progenitus. Stops GSZ and NO

Im pretty happy with maindeck but Im trying to get Pyroclasm or baneslayer angel in there to up my % versus aggro/swarm. Im also thinking about Det sphere or O-ring as I do run 1 E.tutor. Is it worth it versus show and tell? Isn't it just better to be 100% focused on not letting it resolve? Outside of the show and tell matchup I can hardly think of any situation where Im "happy" resolving a 3 mana removal. It's a catch all for Choke, needle and the like so Im not sure. I could cut Wear/tear for it. Thoughts?

Im something like ~30-3 in games and my losses have been to Jund and Esperblade. Lingering souls is a problem but I don't think it's common enough to warrant an inclusion of sulfur elemental in the board. Still good vs DnT but less flexible than i.e Pyroclasm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mackan

I've been grinding with this on modo for a while now... I really like it. I guess most lists are about the same but I just wanted to point out how much I like Predict and Vedalken Shackles and would like your opinion too (Im biased towards those cards) :)

Without snapcaster mage, shardless agent, manlands or bloodbraid elf we are sometimes forced to burn a plow on something bad or play Terminus for little value, perhaps just to keep Jace Alive for a turn. Shackles solves that. Decay can be painful but I think it's worth it. Vedalken Shackles is why I run a whooping three volcanics and no basic mountain. There are also no ruins/karakas.

Predict is just ancestral recall vs anything but tempo (where it might require to much setup). The deck has so many bad cards g1 and Predict can also be like brainstorm 5-6. I like it over Ponder right now but cases can be made for both. It does not put more pressure on SDT like I first thought. Between jace, brainstorm and blindflips from CB I get to use it for good measure. Sometimes you can ruin someones tutor, sdt-drawing a card or just draw 2 when your opponent flips a delver.

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (6)
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
INSTANTS (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
LANDS (22)
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
5 Island
SIDEBOARD
1 Wear // Tear
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle

I don't really like blood moon with Vedalken shackles but It's our best shot versus 12post and sometimes just win straight up vs I.E Jund.

Other things that might stand out;
No creatures maindeck. Without a critical mass of dorks I think there is no reason to run STP-targets G1. I miss clique a bit from time to time.

Spell Snare over Spell Pierce. Im still not convinced about Spell Pierce.

Grafdigger's cage over relic of progenitus. Stops GSZ and NO

Im pretty happy with maindeck but Im trying to get Pyroclasm or baneslayer angel in there to up my % versus aggro/swarm. Im also thinking about Det sphere or O-ring as I do run 1 E.tutor. Is it worth it versus show and tell? Isn't it just better to be 100% focused on not letting it resolve? Outside of the show and tell matchup I can hardly think of any situation where Im "happy" resolving a 3 mana removal. It's a catch all for Choke, needle and the like so Im not sure. I could cut Wear/tear for it. Thoughts?

Im something like ~30-3 in games and my losses have been to Jund and Esperblade. Lingering souls is a problem but I don't think it's common enough to warrant an inclusion of sulfur elemental in the board. Still good vs DnT but less flexible than i.e Pyroclasm.

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I saw a similar list 3-1 a MODO daily yesterday, was that you?

I like it, its reminiscent of the original UWx Countertop Walker version created by Hanni, which got me several strong finishes at my LGS.

If I were to cut a SB slot for Oblivion Ring I'd probably look at Meddling Mage. A singleton, instant speed, Disenchant effect is pretty mandatory. I'd also look into squeezing another piece of graveyard hate into the sideboard, so you have 4 graveyard slots, counting Tutor.

How's the red splash been? Is it really necessary?

Also, I can't help but notice that you have 0 MD answers to non-creature threats. Maybe move 1 Engineered Explosives to the main, instead of the 4th Terminus? O. Ring might also work, but I like EE better since it doubles as mass removal and avoids Decay. If you did that you might want to squeeze in a single Academy Ruins, I don't think it will hurt you Shackles plan in a conceivable way.

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Originally Posted by Gros

Hello everybody, i really don't understand why everybody is playing the RiP version of the deck, in which matchup does it helps? i tested it out a bit but i felt it like a pile of doing-nothings and i think it mulligans really bad in comparison to the standard version, than the combo and control matchups imho get worse.
Am i missing something?

I usually play this list for the standard version:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Wear_Tear
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Terminus

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Gives you game versus Deathblade (shuts down SCM and DRS), Shardless BUG (Shuts down Goyfs, DRS), RUG Delver (Shuts off Goyfs and Mongeese) Dredge and Reanimator. You're a bit softer to the combo decks because of a smaller number of counterspells and the Miracles mirror because of dead cards.

Hooray! thesource works again.

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Originally Posted by SageShadows

Gives you game versus Deathblade (shuts down SCM and DRS), Shardless BUG (Shuts down Goyfs, DRS), RUG Delver (Shuts off Goyfs and Mongeese) Dredge and Reanimator. You're a bit softer to the combo decks because of a smaller number of counterspells and the Miracles mirror because of dead cards.

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RIP is also very solid against ANT and can sometimes be a better t2 play against them than a blind Counterbalance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

I saw a similar list 3-1 a MODO daily yesterday, was that you?

I like it, its reminiscent of the original UWx Countertop Walker version created by Hanni, which got me several strong finishes at my LGS.

If I were to cut a SB slot for Oblivion Ring I'd probably look at Meddling Mage. A singleton, instant speed, Disenchant effect is pretty mandatory. I'd also look into squeezing another piece of graveyard hate into the sideboard, so you have 4 graveyard slots, counting Tutor.

How's the red splash been? Is it really necessary?

Also, I can't help but notice that you have 0 MD answers to non-creature threats. Maybe move 1 Engineered Explosives to the main, instead of the 4th Terminus? O. Ring might also work, but I like EE better since it doubles as mass removal and avoids Decay. If you did that you might want to squeeze in a single Academy Ruins, I don't think it will hurt you Shackles plan in a conceivable way.

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Thanks for the input!

Yes it was me playing in that event. I played one today aswell (going 4-0).

I will continue to keep O-ring/detention sphere in mind when I play but I haven't missed them yet. I will make a list of non-creature permanents that are commonly played which the deck has problem with, both main and sideboard (and edit this post... maybe tomorrow).

I agree about the GY hate but I haven't seen much dredge lately and the other GY-based matchups I think are acceptable. I will test vs DRS and Canadian with another RIP.

I don't really like splashing in control even when it's almost free (with 8-9 fetches and 2-3 islands beeing duals). Missing landdrops or getting wastelanded is about the worst feeling ever so I was skeptical splashing at first.
Straight UW was ok (could even squeeze a few utility lands and colonnade in there!). A minor sideboard splash with black for Thoughtseze and Notion Thief felt unneeded and underwhelming compared to red for blasts.
With the new legend rule I think it's a must to fight opposing jaces with REB/Pyro. Pyroclasm has been a nice tool too. I haven't played much with it yet but pyroclasming 2-3 creatures and getting wastelanded have been totally fine.
I used the last list posted -1 Pithing Needle -1 Blood Moon for +2 pyroclasm.

double-post... pls delete.

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Originally Posted by Mackan

With the new legend rule I think it's a must to fight opposing jaces with REB/Pyro. Pyroclasm has been a nice tool too. I haven't played much with it yet but pyroclasming 2-3 creatures and getting wastelanded have been totally fine.

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I don't understand the pyroclasm argument at all. You could have just run more Terminus and/or Supreme Verdict. The only time pyroclasm would be better than above mentioned mass removal is under G. Teeg. For all other match-ups and instances, running red for mass removal just exposes yourself to wasteland.

Furthermore, the issue against shardless bug has Nothing to do with pyroclasm. You can mass removal with whatever weapon of choice you have, if shardless bug resolves an Ancestral Vision or a Jace, whatever card advantage you gained is gone. I have seen matches where I wiped the board many, many times. However, my CB kept getting Abrupt Decayed, eventually, BUG just recovers by abusing Cascade or jamming a Jace onto the board.

I admit, splashing red might be the necessarily evil against the Whatever-Tell variants. However, if you really want to fight decks running Jace and brainstorm, Notion Thief is still the better option.

It's better than both Terminus and Verdict simply because it can be played under a Teeg to kill a Teeg. Yeah, swords is an argument against it for my argument to play it, but its good for tokens, swarms of creatures, and it's not reliant on being your first draw of the turn like terminus.

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

It's better than both Terminus and Verdict simply because it can be played under a Teeg to kill a Teeg. Yeah, swords is an argument against it for my argument to play it, but its good for tokens, swarms of creatures, and it's not reliant on being your first draw of the turn like terminus.

-ABC

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And you can actually play it to kill BOB before he draws a card. Not two turns after that when he has netted two cards and won the match.

Pyroclasm aside, the biggest attraction to red for me is Blood Moon.

If BUG can't answer it immediately or have Deathrites already in play, then they can't cast any more spells (except maybe a Jitte or Dismember).

Likewise for Jund, if they didn't prepare for it by fetching what few basics they have.

RUG can't cast much under a Blood Moon either; and so on.

Red blasts and other miscellaneous red hate is just icing on the cake, IMO.

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Originally Posted by matunos

Pyroclasm aside, the biggest attraction to red for me is Blood Moon.
If BUG can't answer it immediately or have Deathrites already in play, then they can't cast any more spells (except maybe a Jitte or Dismember).
Likewise for Jund, if they didn't prepare for it by fetching what few basics they have.
RUG can't cast much under a Blood Moon either; and so on.

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There's a danger in your argument. Sure, if you drop Blood Moon as early as turn 3, you can achieve your mentioned effect. However, if you drop it on turn 10, after goyf, after cascading, after jace, after basic lands have hit the table, how much impact can it possibly have? Now, you might not even have the correct land types yourself on turn 3, are you sure you want to voluntary give up your capability of breaking fetchland and look at library with Top by playing Blood Moon?

Sure, you might intend to run some volcanic just to use pyroclasm as extra mass removal. Not only it will not work against RUG Delver, it just make their Wasteland that much more powerful. Of course, feel free to stare at the pyroclasm in your hand, when creeping tarpit is beating you to death.

twndomn has a point here. I've considered Pyroclasm in Joe's(oarsman) list many times.
Arguments for doing so were using the redsplash already in the main, having extra cheap mass removal and a solid 2 for Counterbalance, which this deck kind of wants.
But in reality it is kind of lackluster. Hitting for 2 will not always clear the board, as beaters like Goyf or Knight will just not care about it. What they care about is the reason to waste you out of the game because you just threw away a fetchland for 1 card which is in fact underwhelming most of the time. Against Delverdecks it is as dead as it could be, as it requires to be played early to have an advantage over Terminus/Verdict. GL on not getting stifled turn 2 or Pierce'd/Daze'd. Sure you can wait for turn 5, but at this point a Goyf with at least an ass of 3 has emerged probably.
Against Maverick variants, Mother of Runes protecting Teeg from red sucks too. I dont see myself getting anywhere with 'Clasm..
It could be good versus Goblins and Weenie decks, but in my meta thats a minority.

To make another point about the mass-removals..
I've found myself having trouble with the singleton Supreme Verdict also. It seems really slow and vulnerable to discard.
When you open a hand with 4 lands + Verdict it doesn't seem like a good plan to me.
Sure, it is uncounterable, which seems appealing against half of the field, but it hasn't done much good for me on the other half lately.
Had a game against Dark Maverick last time where i faced down a Thrun with a lot of other dudes, and the only way I could have won this was finding entreat or a sweeper.
So i found myself the singleton Verdict instead of Terminus and Thrun wrecked me next turn.

If you are reading Joe, do you think going back to 4 Terminus might be better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

There's a danger in your argument. Sure, if you drop Blood Moon as early as turn 3, you can achieve your mentioned effect. However, if you drop it on turn 10, after goyf, after cascading, after jace, after basic lands have hit the table, how much impact can it possibly have? Now, you might not even have the correct land types yourself on turn 3, are you sure you want to voluntary give up your capability of breaking fetchland and look at library with Top by playing Blood Moon?

Sure, you might intend to run some volcanic just to use pyroclasm as extra mass removal. Not only it will not work against RUG Delver, it just make their Wasteland that much more powerful. Of course, feel free to stare at the pyroclasm in your hand, when creeping tarpit is beating you to death.

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Shardless BUG doesn't run any basics.

Jund tends to run few basics, and they often don't fetch them against Miracles, unless they're expecting the Blood Moon. It's usually the only non-basics hate that Miracles offers.

Of course I never proposed Blood Moon as a card that can bring you back from way behind on the board. If you're facing down a Jace plus Goyf without some answers in your hand, then you have bigger concerns than locking
out their mana base, and of course keeping an ability to fetch is important there (also, FWIW, a red blast would probably be nice in that situation). But having cleared the board threats, Blood Moon can lock BUG out better than Counterbalance.

I haven't played (or advocated) Pyroclasm, but if I did, I wouldn't bring it in against RUG, or probably even BUG. Consider: BUG often runs Massacre from the board, so they're not exactly afraid of sweeping the board of x/2 creatures.

As for vulnerability to Wasteland, we're talking about a deck that plays around 6 basics and 9 fetches. If you're losing to Wasteland consistently with that mana base, you're doing it wrong.

Thosha, I like Supreme Verdict. The only deck I can think of that has discard and a special vulnerability to Verdict is BUG delver, and there isn't a ton of that going around right now as far as I can tell. If there was somehow room, I would run a second one before the 4th Terminus. In fact, supposing I was able to add removal to the 75 I think my priority list would approximate this (keep in mind that I came up with this list in about forty seconds).

Supreme Verdict
Moat
Humility
Swords to Plowshares
Terminus

If Sphere of Law counts as removal, it would be between Moat and Humility. You can probably tell from my choices that I am more concerned with tribal and delver decks than I am with Maverick. I do not think four mana is too much to pay for a powerful anti-agro card. But you can't run many of them, because you need the cheaper ones to keep you in a comfortable spot until you get the expensive one on the board.

I'm running the following list to decent local success. It's mainly designed to destroy RUG, Elves and random decks and that's what it does.

2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Rest in Peace
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Counterspell

5 Island
3 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Counterbalance

Just make sure to keep enough win conditions in in matchups where you board out Jaces (RUG ie.). If there was a single card solution to make the bad Goblins matchup better, I would be open to suggestions. Everything else feels at least even. I guessainly because nobody plays those weird decks you apparently never win against here like 12 Post or Enchantress.

Hi there. I want to build this deck and I have a stupid question for you. How do you use Clique? It confuses me, I don't know if I should include it or not.

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Originally Posted by Ocean

Hi there. I want to build this deck and I have a stupid question for you. How do you use Clique? It confuses me, I don't know if I should include it or not.

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Here are some good plays with Vendilion Clique:

Play it to check if opponent can counter your important spell.
Play it to kill opponents jace/liliana when they pass turn etc
Play it to prevent Aether Vial from putting in shizznizz
Play it to put preasure on opponent
Play it in response to combodecks going off
Play it to get rid of cards in your own hand
Play it to block Nimble Mongoose

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Originally Posted by L-Luck

If there was a single card solution to make the bad Goblins matchup better, I would be open to suggestions. Everything else feels at least even. I guessainly because nobody plays those weird decks you apparently never win against here like 12 Post or Enchantress.

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Lately I've been fine against Goblins with RIP/Helm and 2 Entreat MD and able to board into a 3rd Entreat. This deck doesn't have trouble slowing Goblins down for a time, but you will almost certainly lose the long game. I've had the most success with Entreat, but sometimes you are able to get a fast Helm online. I don't like Humility much here since it nullifys Entreat. Moat is good against them, and has the plus side of shutting down almost all of BUG's threats (unfortunately BUG likes bringing Golgari Charm against us).

12-Post is beatable with Blood Moon. Get an early CBTop to slow down their land tutoring and then be ready to protect Blood Moon against bounce.

Enchantress is actually pretty easy. They can't beat Jace outside of tutoring an ORing. Spell Pierce and Counterbalance are both amazing against them. Treat them like the slow combo deck they are.

The Pyroclasm argument is silly - it is good because you can cast it early without a setup card. Neither Verdict no Terminus can do this.

What do you guys think about the Death and Taxes match-up? I went against two yesterday and one a few weeks back. I've succeeded in drawing the first two and getting face stomped in the win and in yesterday. I don't know if I'm just playing poorly or if it's a genuinely hard match-up. Non-pyroclasm related thoughts? =P