Ancestor's Chosen is old tech that was used like 5(?) years ago to combat Storm and Aggro with a single card.
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Ancestor's Chosen is old tech that was used like 5(?) years ago to combat Storm and Aggro with a single card.
Just to elaborate; ran the Quad list -1 Ichorid, -1 Study, -1 Coliseum, +1 Fstorm, +1 Citadel, +1 Paradise. The Study change was purely for SB space, as I wanted the 4th Fstorm for that meta, and felt that it would have more use maindeck as at least a discard outlet than the 4thIchorid. SB was:
4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wear/Tear
2 Ancient Grudge
Can't speak too much to my wins. Sort of a jumble. Losses were, in order:
Rd 8: Craig Wescoe/D&T: G1: Won turn one.
G2: Mull to 5. Still hit two Narco and all four Bridges to end turn two one the draw with 8 Zombies in play. Wescoe topdecks a Ratchet Bomb to add to his board of Mom. I bring back two Ichorids, who don't swing into Mom, and swing out with Zombies. He activates Bomb, amd I end my third turn again with 8 Zombies. He plays his fourth land, his second Ratchet Bomb, and RiP.
G3: I mull to four on the play, and he has turn two RiP.
Rd12: Shahar Shenhar/Esper Trueblade:G1: I mull to a no-land, 2 LED, 2 Troll, Looting, blanks on the draw. He allows both LEDs, and the first Looting to resolve, and Dazes the Flashback on the one I dredge into. Absolutely correct since once he allowed the first LED and I hit no Narcos, it was his only chance to stop me. He ends up getting two active Deathrites, an active Jitte, and the four lands to use both, and switch Jitte. I saw no mistakes from either of us, but I was still able to race him by one turn.
G2: I misboard, thinking White=RiP, bringing in Wear over Grudge. Combined with a sub par hand, that allows his Relic and Deathrite to shut me down.
G3: Another close one. I Fstorm his first Deathrite, and Grudge his Relic. His second Deathrite slows me down long enough to land a Mystic, I miss on hitting a Therapy or Grudge for the Bskull that he gets, which lets him live long enough to draw Jitte and close out the match. Best match of the tournament.
Rd 13: Kyle Miller/RUG:G1: I mull to six on the draw, and can't DDD even though I know what he is playing. This plays directly into his Dazing my first play, Wasting me, and Forcing my next play. I essentially do nothing.
G2: I resolve a turn one Looting, drawing my fourth land. He hits his one of Cage on his turn one. I resolve a turn two PImp. He Wastes. I then begin playing Stinkweed Imp, and using it on D while swinging with PImp. Once he gets three guys, I block with PImp to get three Zombies. He Bolts my Stinkweed, then we spend three consecutive turns on him Forcing my recasting Stinkweed, while I block with Zombies to live. By the time I can resolve Stinkweed to mow down his team, I have lost my Bridges, am dead if I don't allow him to swing me down to two so I can kill him on the backswing. He has the Bolt. Worst match of the tournament.
Why not just use a universal artifact/enchantment hate like Nature's Claim. I'm sure the 4 life they gain won't matter.
Wear is universal, it just costs one more. The life is relevant against any Aggro deck with any Artifact based hate. It's also far better against any deck with Chalice, Blood Moon, or Counterbalance. The reason the switch mattered against Shahar is that you play completely differently with stuff you have to have in hand vs stuff you can dredge into.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
I might get into some other results later, but I now need to give a huge thanks to Mike Noble "Fish", who gave me a gigantic compliment. He played Goblins, and while one of our games was close, the other I blew him out. After the match, we discussed plays for a bit, asking questions and such, like anyone might do with an intelligent, friendly guy such as Mike. He told me then that he had been around a while, and that I was the best Dredge player he had ever seen. When I sort of blew him off, he insisted that I had done everything technically perfect during our match. He then pulled out a picture of him, and a guy he said won Vintage Champs with Dredge, who he said was a friend, and still said I was way better than he. Not posting this to brag. I had never met Mike before, and I am confident with my ability with the deck. Just wanted to put the gratitude out there, since that confidence boost really carried me throughout the rest of Day One.
How did Unmask work out for you? I've been testing with it recently and really diggin' the card. Also, are there any changes to your 75 that you would make in retrospect?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I make changes for every tournament. As always, Dredge is a deck of 75 cards. Not 60 and 15. You always build the SB first, then make your adjustments to the main accordingly. For this tourney, I had zero complaints. Though I do think that Wear would have been just as good being Claim. Local influence had me too afraid of Chalice decks. No big deal there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins
Unmask was excellent. It makes most all Combo matchups in our favor. And even if a Show deck boards Leyline, you can use it as a free discard outlet. What put it over the top was the combination of it and the Wears and Grudges. I have 6 ways to remove Artifacts, but only 4 for Enchantments. Which are usually far more damaging. Fortunately, RiP costs two, and is usually telegraphed. Unmask gives you four more ways, along with Wear, and Therapy, to remove it. You need to be especially careful with this plan though, as your Black count post-board becomes paramount.
Thanks for sharing. I'm curious though, do you ever board in more than four cards, and if so, what do you typically take out? I'm always reluctant to bring in more than four, but maybe I'm just not doing it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
You do have a knack for that don't ya ;]Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Played another local tournament at MTG Deals this past weekend. There were 30 or so players with 5 rounds of action and a cut to Top 8.
Round 1: Maverick
Games: 1-1 Match: Draw
Game 1 was rather long and grindy which is why we ultimately went to time. Not really the conventional start to the day, however, I didn't mind the draw as much considering it would most likely mean a slew of slow blue decks I would be facing. Course this wasn't exactly correct as there were no other individuals with any draws in the tournament outside of my 1st round opponent. This meant I would be essentially dream crushing all day. *_*
Round 2: Jund
Games: 2-0 Match: 1-0-1
Round 3: U/R Delver (with Young Pyromancer)
Games: 2-1 Match: 2-0-1
Round 4: BUG Tempo/Team America (only undefeated player left at 3-0, has to play. Felt bad again Dx) All ends well with Cody eventually making Top 8 as well!
Games: 2-0 Match: 3-0-1
Round 5: Sneak & Show
Games: ID Match: 3-0-2
Top 8
Quarter Finals: Elves (Jacob Koby Kory)
Game 1: Double LED hand compliments of Koby :U
Game 2: Koby opens with Llanowar elf and I dispatch the playables out of his hand on my turn which essentially puts him out of the game.
Games: 2-0
Semi Finals: ANT
Notes: I therapy the Infernal Tutor out of his hand both games to stop his development and move my game along.
Games: 2-0
Finals: BUG Tempo/Team America (Cody Johnston same opponent from swiss)
Games: 2-0
Notes: Cody makes a mistake turn 1 by fetching up his U. Sea instead of his Trop. No access to green makes me a happy camper ;p
I end up scooping up the U. Sea and Polluted Delta as 1st place prize! It was a pretty good day I have to say.
Also I had the same maindeck. The only difference this time around was -2 Nether Shadow and -1 Coffin Purge to include 3x Mindbreak Trap in my sb. I did indeed have one for my ANT Opponent in the Top 8 which could not be ignored. I believe it bought me the turns necessary to place the game in my favor. The reasoning for this latest change is fear of faster combo which I see a lot more often in my local meta in the form of STORM combo (ANT, TES, Belcher etc. ) While the matchups can at times go either way I'm not going to fool myself by thinking dredge is the faster deck.
This is my SB guide for GPDC. Keep in mind that it is only a guideline, and that many factors change these decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Firestorm
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ichorid
4 Wear/Tear
2 Ancient Grudge
DBlade:+2 Grudge,+3 Unmask,+1 Ichorid,+2 Fstorm/-4 Bthrough,-4 LED
Patriot:+3 Fstor,+1 Parad,+4 Wear/-4 LED,-1 Bthro,-1 Loot,-1 Thug,-1 Stud
Show:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Ichorid,-1 Paradise,-1 Study
Miracles:+4 Wear,+4 Unmask/-4 LED,-1 Fstorm,-1 Bthrough,-2 Study
AdN:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 PImp,-1 Citadel,-1 Ichorid
BUG:+2 Grudge,+1 Parad,+3 Fstorm,+1 Ichorid/-4 LED,-3 Bthrough
RUG:+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm,+1 Ichorid/-4 LED,-1 Bthrough
Post:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Paradise,-2 Study(-1 Pimp OD)
Elves:+3 Fstorm/-3 PImp
Merfolk:+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm/-4 LED,-1 Bthrough,-1 Loot
Goblins:+4 Wear,+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise/-3 BThrough,-4 LED,-1 Thug
U/Burn:+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise,+3 Unmask,+1 Ichorid/-4 Bthrough,-4 LED
Dredg:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstor,-1 Therap,-1 Citad,-1 PImp(D)/Ich(P)
Tide:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Thug,-1 Paradise,-1 Study
MUD:+4 Wear,+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise/-1 Therapy,-4 LED,-2 Study
D&T:+4 Unmask/-1 PImp,-1 Paradise,-1 Study,-1 Fstorm
Maverick:+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise,+1 Ichorid/-3 PImp,-2 Study
Reanimator:+4 Unmask/-1 PImp,-1 Paradise,-1 Fstorm,-1 Ichorid
Bant:+3 Fstorm,+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise/-4 LED,-1 Breakthrough,-1 Study
Burn:+3 Unmask,+2 Fstorm,+1 Paradise/-4 LED,-1 Citadel,-1 Study
Affin::+4 Wear,+2 Grudge,+1 Para,+3 Fsto/-4 BThro,-4 LED,-1 Therp,-1 Thg
Paint:+4 Wear,+2 Grudg,+1 Parad,+3 Fstor/-4 BThro,-4 LED,-1 Thg,-1 Stdy
Loam:(OD)+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm/-4 LED,-1 Therapy,-1 PImp
Loam:(OP)+4 Unmask/-1 Therapy,-1 Ichorid,-1 Fstorm,-1 Citadel
Jund:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 PImp,-1 Citadel,-1 Study
Cutting Careful Study over Breakthrough just feels dirty, Breakthrough is a significantly worse card post-board than Careful Study and that is 50 to 66% of your games.
Is Unmask any better than Thoughtseize? I've always found it incredibly resource intensive, altho' I agree with the philosophy that Dredge should use pro-active as opposed to reactive cards vs hate - generally I stick to cards like Firestorm, Tireless Tribe and Thoughtseize wherever possible.
This is not correct. Careful Study is the worst draw effect in the deck, and the second-worst discard effect. I went for three years winning tournaments with the deck while running zero. More directly, Breakthrough is always better against Combo, even post-board. Period. And Breakthrough is better against decks running GY sweepers post-board, since it plus any discard allows you to win immediately after getting Crypt'ed etc. Against Tempo, you don't want Breakthrough. Nor do you want it against fast Aggro with hate, since you need to bring in both antt-hate, and Fstorm. But to make a blanket statement that Study is always better than Breakthrough, even with the post-board caveat, is both misleading, and mostly just wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
As far as Unmask, mana is the most constrictive resource in Dredge. Being able to cast Unmask AND another spell is what makes it a good choice. The two life for Thoughtseize isn't irrelevant, but isn't important. The one mana is. You are far more likely to have a superfluous Black card in hand, than an extra turn/second land drop+no Wasteland from your opponent.
First off, it's great to actually see someone put up their sideboard choices for dredge; I appreciate you taking the time and having the guts to lay it all out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I do have a few questions, though:
I love Breakthrough vs. Combo, and just now cut the Winds of Change out of my board after seeing you running Unmask. But against Graveyard Sweepers, post board, you like Breakthrough? Given the example you used (Tormod's Crypt), I'm assuming you're referring to cards that are not Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage? I've been boarding out Breakthrough in most matchups where Nature's Claim comes in. I feel like being on the draw, you never want to go all-in vs. sweepers.Quote:
Breakthrough is better against decks running GY sweepers post-board, since it plus any discard allows you to win immediately after getting Crypt'ed etc.
Care to elaborate? I think of Daze/Stifle decks when you say Tempo. I saw you only took out a single Breakthrough against those decks. I leave in mine against RUG Delver, but pull them out against UWR Delver, on account of Nature's Claim staying in, whereas with RUG, only Ancient Grudge comes in. Maybe our definition of Tempo is different.Quote:
Against Tempo, you don't want Breakthrough.
Definitely looking forward to trying Unmask out. I'm just coming back to Dredge after a hiatus and I'm also trying out the 4 Careful Study, 0 Putrid Imp build. Any thoughts on the validity? Putrid Imp is a very stable card, but perhaps with Deathrite Shaman decks dominating the format the anemic nature of it was lowering win %? I know the consensus before was that Dredge just wins game 1 every time, but it doesn't feel like the 2 sideboard graveyard hate cards are the end-all-be-all. Getting choked off of Bridge from Below was one of the primary reasons I managed to lose game 1. I'm thinking that going all-in and pressing advantage game 1 may be better than building for consistency and assuming that Bridge from Below can inevitably beat Batterskulls, or is fast enough to race Combo. Maybe the GP top 8 list wasn't a fluke.
//Threats
2 Griselbrand
3 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
//Engine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//Sideboard
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
I'm going to give this a shot at my next tournament. Lot of changes from the conventional lists, let me know what you think.
This is correct, sort of. Against Crypt or Relic, you want Breakthrough. You are usually slow dredging, waiting to hit Grudge, and/or a critical mass of threats in the GY to force them to blow. Against Aggro this puts you in a position where you need the strongest draw spell to go off after they do. With 4 Firestorms coming in, I don't have the room to keep in Breakthrough along with anti-hate, since it doesn't count as a discard outlet in these cases. But that doesn't mean I don't want it. However, against RiP from a non-Blue deck, I always want Breakthrough, since you can totally invalidate it if you go off before they can cast it. And I keep some number against Blue RiP decks since you will easily resolve it by the time you can resolve something to remove RiP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
I don't bring in anti-hate against RUG, since it's not worth the slots against 1-2 Cages. So I have room to keep in Breakthrough. It's also because I bring in Fstorm as an uncounterable discard outlet. Most often, they will counter it anyway if it means saving their Delver and three life. That gives you free reign to untap, and resolve Breakthrough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Against BUG, I bring in Grudge, since it works against Nihil. Plus, having Deathrite as well makes it so you need to answer at least one of their GY hate cards. So with the addition of Fstorm to Grudge, I only have room for one Bthrough. The reason I cut Bthrough over the Study, that I said was worse, it because you can't count on anything resolving against these decks. So if you need to sandbag spells in hand, and don't have an initial discard outlet, you don't want to have to throw stuff away to to start your GY against a deck that can have Nihil and sandbag Deathrite, or vice versa.
However, against Patriot, you are more forced to go all-in due to RiP. So usually cantrips are worse than Breakthrough, since you get no value. Ours are card disadvantage, and almost everything you pitch has some value in the GY since you keep most lands and spells. Losing all that while trying to dig for an answer to RiP, is as bad if not worse than just drawing cards. Their clock is slower than most, and you can further slow it down by discarding their Equipment, and using Firestorm to kill every threat they have other than Geist/TNN.
I don't consider that the same deck. It's totally built differently. That list is totally dependant on the combo. That it will hit enough Narcomoebas to go off. Mine is far more incremental, both in function, and design. Neither is right or wrong, they are just set up to play out differently. I could be convinced in certain metas to run a DR package over Unmask. You'll never see me run less than three PImp, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Yeah, I haven't tested it at all, but I am worried about playing with so few creatures to sacrifice. It definitely looks like the list needs to flip most the deck to win. I cut a Flame-Kin from what he was running, since the third target just felt like total overkill, but maybe -1 Dread Return, -1 Griselbrand for +2 Putrid Imp. I want to try the list with the full 16 draw spells and the rest of the deck as just gas, so I'm not going to cut draw spells for Imp just yet.
I don't know the sideboarding of Drew Tunison, but I like to know it! What do you think about probably sideboarding? I think his decklist is amazing.
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
2 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
Creatures [21]
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Spells [27]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Lands [12]
SIDEBOARD
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nature's Claim
Some suggestions?
Being able to cast Careful Study off blue makes it better than worst and second-worst. I would also point out that the Breakthrough + any discard lets you win immediately is kind of an awkward requirement to meet if you're trimming discard outlets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I agree 100% about not wanting to cut Breakthroughs against Tormod's Crypt because it's awesome to refuel with post-Crypt. The risk, especially if you don't have Imp, is that you'll have Breakthrough + draw spell and no good discard outlets.
I run 11 Rainbow Lands. So this is less relevant than the lists that run 8 by a fair margin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
And not only do I not cut PImp, I add Firestorms. So not only do I run more discard outlets, they are instant speed. Which both allows you to better play around Hate, and gives greater mana efficiency.
I completely agree with you. The card doesn't force you to change your game plan, and if they don't have the hate in hand, then it still functions as effective disruption. My only complaint is that Enlightened Tutor/Brainstorm shenanigans can pose a bit of a problem at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Fair enough. Unfortunately, the only way to deal with that is either double up on disenchants, or run Needle. Which still doesn't deal with RiP. Your SB suffers with the former, and Needle has always proven weak. Counterable, easily removed, and too difficult to name the right target against the sort of decks that run Deathrite with Spellbomb. Especially when you have to hide it in ha d.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins
Pick your poison.
I played Dredge this past weekend at the Grand Prix, making day 2 . I ended up finishing with an 8-4 record, giving me 215th place. Just wanted to share the list I played
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomeba
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge From Below
1 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
SB
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
3 Natures Claim
2 Firestorm
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
2 Nether Shadow
Matches:
Day 1
12 post 2-1
Sneak and Show 1-2
ANT 2-0
Sneak and show 2-0
Punishing Jund 2-1
Omnitell 2-1
Elves 2-0
Bant Blade 1-2
Shardless Bug 2-0
Day 2
Ant 1-2
Infect 2-0
Rug 0-2
Day one was crazy played Josh Utter Leyton round 7 on elves and then played Sam Black the following round two of the most demanding games of competitive magic in my life. Day two had some bad luck with mulligans and didn't play as well as I did day one. Going to change a few cards in the SB but I need to do more testing with what I am going to do. Was overall a great weekend!
Like Alex_UNLIMITED i want to know what was the Drew Tunison side plan. Anyone of you could write SB plan for his List?
Thx you so much parcher! Youare the best dredger i ever read! Take note f this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
You're welcome. Remember though, that guide is more for me, to show me how to build my SB and deck, by showing which cards come in where. It gives me a good idea of importance and value in each matchup, and allows me to make decisions like "X instead of Y because of Z" when considering say, Unmask vs Dread Return. Against Combo, they were equal, but against Miracles, where you need more that four ways to get rid of RiP, or against Surgical, where I don't have the room to add Shadow or Ghoul, Unmask became a needed addition. Actually sideboarding rarely is ever exactly like stated there.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Just because I'm bored at work, and there's no activity on this forum; I'll put up some of the interesting plays I had at GPDC.
Rnd 6: Dredge mirror: G1: My opponent wins the roll, and mulls to four. I suspect Combo, and keep a Land, LED, Breakthrough hand that loses to Force. He opens with Land, Breakthrough, go. Happy to see this, I go off. I hit no Bridges, no Ichorids, and one Narcomoeba. He returns Ichorid, dredges a Narco, and attacks, which I block since he has a Bridge. My turn, I dredge into no Narco or Ichorids again, but this time I hit three Bridges. Hooray!!. He now brings back two Ichorids to swing with, and by the time I hit any dudes of my own, I'm already dead since I can never block.
Funny side part. After dredging for my last turn, I concede. My opponent asks to see my dredge, to which I refuse, since I already conceded. He calls a judge, who agrees with me. He then appeals. Keep in mind, we've kept those five cards seperate, and in view the whole time. The head judge informs me that part of dredgind is revealing the cards. Even though it happens at once, and in any order I choose when they hit the GY, the act itself reveals them. Since it's open information, I have to show him. I didn't actually know this, but it makes sense. Learn something new, etc. When I ask what the big fucking deal was, the judge takes me away from the table, and explains to me that my opponent was concerned I waS cheating. Hiding cards that shouldn't be in my deck. The judge saw the five cards before my opponent, immediately determined that wasn't the case, and just gave me a warning for concealing public info since everyone agreed on the five hidden cards. Karma is a bitch, though.....
G2: I open with land, PImp, Therapy for LED(hit). He Loots. I Breakthrough, and win effectively on the spot.
G3: He opens with Land, LED, Breakthrough, but doesn't hit much action. I have LED, Loot, and Study, and he can only hit two, so I get to discard on my turn. He swings for a couple turns, getting further ahead on board to the point that no one dredge will save me. I draw, and topdeck Breakthrough, which puts us close to parity. I pass the next turn with a Narco, and three Zombies in play. Three Ichorids with plenty of food in the yard, no Bridges left, and one card in my library at six life. My opponent ends his draw with three Ichorids in play, three Narcos in play, no Bridges(one left in library), about 15 cards left, and is at 11 life. He thinks for a few minutes, sacs his Ichorids to DR his FKZ, and swings with it and the three Narcos. I block a Narco with the same, and FKZ with a Zombie.
"Uh....ok. Take 4, I'm at two?" Opponent realized at the same time that I had a blocker for his Narco and FKZ, that he has no Bridges.
"Did I just lose?", he asks.
"Um....."
"Could you have even won if I didn't attack?"
"Ummmm....upkeep, trigger three Ichorids, swing with them and Zombies?" is my reply.
The worst part is, due to the aforementioned judge call, there are probably 60 people watching. I guess it's like they say. You need a few of these to go your way in any large tournament.
Round 11: Elves:G1: I go off turn two, and Therapy two NOrders. Game ends quickly
G2: When God Hands Collide: He opens with Fetch, Deathrite. I open with Gemstone, go. He taps Forest and Deathrite to cast Ooze, plays Cradle(?!), and says go. I EOT cast Firestorm for four, discarding FOUR DREDGERS! He asks about the resolution... yes, you can target two dudes before the spell resolves, yes your Ooze is a 4/4, yes you gain two life before losing four. Unfortunately, I still have this Breakthrough..........:tongue:
And did you feel confortable with no dr main? I think that card is key for the deck.
No. I think I would feel more comfortable running one DR main. I just didn't(and still don't) think it was better than the options I chose for this particular tournament. But I will likely add one back to the main. At the very least, it's better than the fourth Therapy post-board in a lot of matchups, and allows me to board out one and still have enough sac outlets.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Thanks for you hard work Parcher!
I have been testing:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return
Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Unmask
3 Pithing Needle
4 Other
I'm still working on the sideboard. I could play Chain of Vapor, Firestorm or something else. Sideboarding is tough with this deck, and I feel that the only thing we need to sideboard for is hate. And since by definition hate hampers our GY plan, we must address it before "going off." As such it must cost one to free.
I'm not sold on the 4th Ichorid in the main, but not sure I'd want the 4th Thug or Breakthrough either. I'm really happy with the rest of the mainboard.
This deck is so resilient. I was happy to see it Top 8 and GPDC. Also, it helps us considerably to be able to look at our opponent's decklist and see his sideboard plan.
This is the list i began to test when loothing saw the light. 4 ichorid 11 dredgers with -1 CC + 1 DR target. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardu
Hi guys, took dredge to another tournament after the big let down at BoM at the beginning of the month. Played my usual quadlazer -1 Ichorid +1 Dread Return.
My sideboard was
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Firestorm
3x Nether Shadow
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Ichorid
1x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
This was a new group of players for me, I had only seen some decklists from T4s earlier in the year. So I had no idea what to expect.
R1 against Zoo
Game 1 I get to dredging nicely, while keeping him from bolting his Nacatl.
In come the Firestorms and the Grudges, out 1 PImp, 1 Study, 1 Looting, 1 LED and 1 Breakthrough. (I boarded more or less like that all day long and I pretty much liked the shaving thing)
Game 2 he surprises me with KotR into Bog and StP for my Ichorids, he manages to kill me with the KotR, a Nacatl and Gaddock Teeg. Bad mistake here as I crack LED for red instead of blue while I have an open Coliseum.
Game 3 I board out the Grudges and bring an extra DR+ Iona. Iona comes T3 after I ripped his hand and left him with double PuFi, Iona on red and 7 odd zombies.
1-0 (2-1)
R2 against BUG delver (not shardless)
Game 1 I get a rock solid hand (1 dredger, 2 lands, 2 study and 2 breakthrough) and I'm able to play through various counters.
In come Chain of Vapors and Firestorm (debatable this one) for an extra Breakthrough and Thug out.
Game 2 he has extract on Bridge and it slows me down enough that I scoop up with 6 minutes left in the round.
Game 3 he mulls to 2! I win it easily from there, even before time is called.
2-0 (4-2)
R3 against Junk
He played some kind of homebrew mix in the Junk colors, saw KotR, Cabal Therapy, Life from the Loam and Dark Depths. No lingering souls, but didn't look through his list afterwards. Game 1 I get a nutty 7 and he scoops up after I dredge for my 2nd turn.
In come Chain of Vapor and Nether Shadow.
Game 2 I manage to screw up pretty bad again. I get off to a decent start, but KotR into Bog slows me down, especially after a Deed for 2 kills my board. Then I have a CoV in hand, a Mine and Coliseum, when he goes for Thespian Stage and Dark Depths. I fail and activate coliseum without dredgers in the yard, instead of keeping mana open for the token.
Game 3 I don't have a superb hand, but I keep. I topdeck some nice stuff, but he gets a Bog lock going, quickly after I lose the round.
2-1 (5-4)
Until now I have been playing pretty badly, making numerous mistakes so I decide to man up.
R4 against UWR delver
Game 1 has a very good hand again and he quickly scoops them up.
In CoV and Firestorm (should have been grudge really)
Game 2 I get a very nice opener, but as I'm on the draw LED gets pierced. Then I have to wait a few turns as I can't cast my Looting from Coliseum. Natural discarded GGT and 1 ichorid that keeps returning together with some Moebas slowly nibble at his life total, as he manages to find nothing after an initial Lavamancer, SFM and Jitte. By the time he can equip the Jitte he had to shoot his SFM to exile two Bridges. I manage to swing for the win with a second Ichorid, without making more than 2 zombie tokens in a 10+ turn long game.
3-1 (7-4)
R5 against mono-B reanimator
It's this guys 2nd legacy tournament, so he tells me has never seen dredge before. I show him how it works game 1, after winning the die roll I rip his hand apart, DR an Ichorid and leave 12 zombies on the table.
In CoV and DR+Iona
He starts game 2 by Therapying himself, discarding Jin Gitaxias and showing me 2x exhume, 1x Reanimate, 1x Animate Dead and no additional land. So my hand with Coliseum and CoV stop him in his tracks as he fails to find another land. After I topdeck a LED for my turn (lucky bastard) I breakthrough for the win as he has no outs to Iona.
I end up 3rd and as I can get a ride home and the other guys didn't want to play either we split, netting me a Dark Confidant. The deck was a lot of fun again (dredge decks are bitches sometimes) and I had a blast with my sideboard. Didn't get to actually cast Firestorm, but I still think it's a good choice with all the delver decks running around. Will probably play the 4th in the SB next time instead of the last Ichorid as I never bring it in.
Hi guys,
Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
The Feature Matches from GPDC are up now. Regarding the commentary in my match against Shahar, I did NOT lose to Cuneo on Day One. I lost to Wescoe. While I have infinitely more respect for Cuneo than Wescoe, I have lost to Elves once ever, in what has to be over 25 matches. And that wasn't at GPDC. Losing to D&T when I mull five times, and Game Two he hits running Ratchet Bombs to sweep the board when the RiP he had was virtually dead before that doesn't bother me. Losing to a deck with no true hate, that I'm faster than, that also straight up loses to a 4-of Red Instant I run, would. After watching Game Three against Shahar again, I suppose I got a little greedy. He had no real clock, and the top card of my library turned out to be the third land, so I could have waited. I just honestly did not think he'd have two Deathrites, two counters, and the Relic all in hand on turn two/three.
I played 74/75 of Parcher's list to a top 32 finish at SCG providence. I cut a Careful Study for a Dread Return, and swapped the MD and SB positions of the 1 Firestorm/ 1 Ichorid. I would have top 8ed but for awful dredges in my win-and-in, G1, and an extremely lucky topdeck by my opponent game 2 (who I have heard is a savage cheater). Anyway, great deck and I would run it all back.
This is the problem with this, and really any list. You sacrifice power for consistancy. The deck doesn't need a "finisher", per se. What it does need is that third angle of attack. All avenues have some degree of vulnerability to GY hate. So let's just stipulate that up front.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
First is Ichorids and Narcomoebas, with PImp being a secondary threat. Second is Zombies. Third is the DR target(or if you are me, Gargadon). This is to protect against these topdecks. If they have the Plow for Ichorid, you have the tokens, etc. Now if the have the Crypt for the Ichorids, AND the EE for the tokens, you need the third avenue. DR is the best way to accomplish this.
There are essentially three ways to go about this. First is no target. Leaves you open to the most possible topdecks, but takes the least slots. Second is going for the most robust single target. One that either is the most difficult to remove, or cuts off the most ways of your opponent winning. Inkwell and Iona are probably the best at this for an individual target. Third is the full on combo route, involving Griselbrand, and either FKZ or Flayer.
I don't have an answer here. Personally, I like Terastodon. Not because I care about removing specific permanents, but necause it puts a lot of power on the board, while removing three lands. This removes, in my opinion, the most options for your opponent since they can almost never perform the multiple shutdowns of the aforementioned avenues of attack without mana. At least not before they're dead.
What I really wanted the Dread Return for was a 5th sacrifice outlet, and effectively a 5th Bridge in terms of power generatable on turn 1, as well as a good answer for Surgical. I found that with more lands and more thugs, I could get the creatures together more easily, and a giant troll was bigger than anything but Emrakul. Also, as you mentioned above, it let me cut a therapy post board and keep my sacrificer count up, converting Narcomoebas into zombies quickly. It did feel like I threw back a few hands wherr it was just there, but I was mostly mulling because I had no dredgers (only 12 in deck) or lands (13 plus good enough LED hands) compared to discard outlets (22 plus hand size)
Can you post a link, please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebq-R...8CoxC7G#t=1782
ggslive.com has the entire tournament without commercials.
Took this deck for a spin today and went 4-0. First time playing it, never realized how much fun it was. It's so easy to beat RIP/DRS if you're prepared for it and those are more or less the only hate cards seen in large numbers today.
This deck is ridiculously fun when you're winning, but when you're losing you never get to do anything. At SCG Providence, I went up against Cage, Relic, Leyline, and Deathrite + Scooze. Also played the mirror match where he had DR targets and Leyline. Jund peeled his one of Scooze on the only turn it mattered, to say the least, it wasn't a very fun day for me :(. I was on the losing end of variance and went 1-3 drop, it was my first time dropping from a tournament since like 2008. I need to go back to casting Brainstorms.
I will never dump dredge.
no matter how underdog it gets, or when they print "the ultimate dredge hoser", dredge is fun, fast, and powerfull, but it's flaws are quite easy to see in the very first games with the deck.
having dredge as your only legacy deck is almost a suicide, I recomend to everyone who plays dredge to have a backup deck (Storm uses the therapys and LEDs, and some variants even use the rainbow lands as well, reanimator can use the PIMPs, the careful study and some DR targets)
I use my jund deck to make up when the meta does not favor dredge, and my burn deck to surprise in a meta without heavy combo decks.
There simply is no "ultimate dredge hoser". Hate against dredge is somewhat specific and not every deck choses it as part of their fifteen, furthermore they have to draw into it. I will always play dredge because I truly enjoy its raw power and ability to oops I win :-)
There are a few cards I would say are hosers. Of those I think RIP is the ultimate. While you can get rid of it with dedicated hate, if it comes down your going to have a bad day. Yes this deck has power, but it has its issues and it can be hosed with but a single card. Those that want to hate on it have a large choice of options too.
As for having to draw into hate, yes, this is true and I am thankful sometimes this game has that luck element to it. But on the flip side sometimes that luck will just shit on you.