[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

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Originally Posted by Nikedemos

How do you think the Metagame will change?

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It's hard to say what's going to happen in the next few weeks to a month, but the common expectations are an increase in Delver decks, and older combo like Storm and Elves. Graffdigger's Cage is looking really good, and reanimator is still something to worry about.

I think that Monastery Mentor is such an egregiously powerful card to not see any play in some sort of shell, so I'll probably put 1 or 2 Dread of Night for a bit. Also good against D&T, wherever that places itself in the metagame.

This is a 5-0 BUG Delver list from MODO on April 27th: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...-27#nekoyama_-

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl

This is a 5-0 BUG Delver list from MODO on April 27th: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...-27#nekoyama_-

Thoughts?

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Against what deck(s) do the Ensnaring Bridges come in? SnT, Sneak Attack and Reanimator only? Or is there actually some MU where the game plan is to "go hellbent" using Liliana, sit behind the Bridge and win with Jace TMS?

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Originally Posted by Karhumies

Against what deck(s) do the Ensnaring Bridges come in? SnT, Sneak Attack and Reanimator only? Or is there actually some MU where the game plan is to "go hellbent" using Liliana, sit behind the Bridge and win with Jace TMS?

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I doubt it. That seems terrible.

I think this is probably the 'level 0' deck I'm going to start with. The Elves matchup isn't great but it's fixable, and I like being ahead in the Delver mirror.

4-0'ed FNM last night with the most boring list ever:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spell Pierce

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dead Weight

Round 1 was against Sneak and Show (2-0). He mulliganed to 6 on the play game 1...and then I Hymned him, played a Goyf, and Hymned him again, then locked him under Liliana and he can't find the Sneak Attack to get out of it. Game 2 I Delvered him pretty hard. I did get Blood Mooned, but the damage had already been done. My round 2 opponent was on Elves (2-0). Game 1 I have turn 1 Deathrite into turn 2 Goyf + Wasteland for his Bayou and stop him from getting a Symbiote online with removal. He can't recover when I counter his Natural Order. Game 2 I keep removal and cantrips and find a Goyf after Hymning him and killing some Elves. We end up in Deathrite standoff compounded by a Wirewood Symbiote standoff, but draw-go with Leovold out favors me. I eventually find a Delver and start flying over. He tries to come back with GSZs and a Natural Order, but all of the nothing left my hand stacked with Forces with Deluge in reserve. He doesn't come back.

Round 3 against D&T is unremarkable (2-1). I eke out a win game 1 on the back of multiple Hymns and timely removal, then lose game 2 to an Aether Vial draw that punishes me for keeping a land-heavy hand that keeps drawing lands. I win game 3 on the back of Pithing Needle, a turn 1 Delver, and removal for days. I win a close 3 game set against UG Post in round 4, where the only remarkable thing is the number of Miscalculations my opponent is playing. The Post players in Philly tend to be quite innovative and test the deck a lot, so they tend to be properly prepared. I win games 1 and 3 the turn before something stupid happens.

I might mess with the sideboard a bit but I'm very happy​ with the maindeck.

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Originally Posted by btm10

4-0'ed FNM last night with the most boring list ever:

[snip]

I might mess with the sideboard a bit but I'm very happy​ with the maindeck.

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Congrats, I really like the maindeck Spell Pierce. Whenever I've played one it's always been really impressive in the first game.

How do you feel about 12 creatures? I've never gone below 13 at risk of feeling "threat-light". But without Terminus in the picture, maybe we can we drop the heavy top-end of Tombstalker.

I've been interested in testing actual Counterspell because whenever I build a list I end up at 59 cards and can't figure out a reliable one-of.


EDIT: I didn't notice the double Leovold in the sideboard at first -- it's a real strong card, and maybe my comment about too-few creatures isn't as valid now.

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Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl

Congrats, I really like the maindeck Spell Pierce. Whenever I've played one it's always been really impressive in the first game.

How do you feel about 12 creatures? I've never gone below 13 at risk of feeling "threat-light". But without Terminus in the picture, maybe we can we drop the heavy top-end of Tombstalker.

I've been interested in testing actual Counterspell because whenever I build a list I end up at 59 cards and can't figure out a reliable one-of.


EDIT: I didn't notice the double Leovold in the sideboard at first -- it's a real strong card, and maybe my comment about too-few creatures isn't as valid now.

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I know there's all the hype and temptation to jump on the Leovold train, but why not have him in the main?

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Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl

Congrats, I really like the maindeck Spell Pierce. Whenever I've played one it's always been really impressive in the first game.

How do you feel about 12 creatures? I've never gone below 13 at risk of feeling "threat-light". But without Terminus in the picture, maybe we can we drop the heavy top-end of Tombstalker.

I've been interested in testing actual Counterspell because whenever I build a list I end up at 59 cards and can't figure out a reliable one-of.


EDIT: I didn't notice the double Leovold in the sideboard at first -- it's a real strong card, and maybe my comment about too-few creatures isn't as valid now.

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Thanks! I love Counterspell, but UU can actually be challenging sometimes since you almost always fetch Sea into Bayou which lets you cast all of your 1 and 2 mana spells and means that any third mana source lets you cast Liliana. Years ago I had considered Countersquall out of the board as reach for combo and control matchups, but it ended up being less reliable than Negate. I think hard counters are great sometimes, but they aren't as reliable as they'd ideally be. I've been on and off of the 13th and 14th creature for a couple of years, but I don't think the meta is fair enough to cut Lilianas or the Spell Pierce, nor are decks like Elves and D&T rare enough to cut a Fatal Push.

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Originally Posted by zhandro

I know there's all the hype and temptation to jump on the Leovold train, but why not have him in the main?

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He's great in specific matchups and is sometimes extremely clunky. Liliana can be clunky, but she's devastating (as opposed to merely good) against opposing creature decks while being only slightly worse than Leovold against combo.

EDIT: A shorter way to saying this might just be that Leo needs support staff. Sometimes you're using him to stop combo opponents from using cantrips to reassemble after you've stopped their first attempt or shredded their hand, other times he stops fair decks from digging for removal and punishes them for killing your creatures. It's definitely him vs. Liliana for the maindeck 3-drop slot. The downside to Leovold is that he's​ much easier to interact with (and marginally harder to cast) than Liliana is, and the situations where he's better (when your opponent topdecks a cantrip) are much easier for you to fight through than the situations where Liliana is better (staring down an Angler, Tombstalker, or Marit Lage).

After about 10 days of the Divining Top ban, the top 5-0 decks on MODO have been 1) Grixis Delver, 2) Storm [variants of ANT and TES], and 3) Sneak and Show. It's a small sample size, but they're looking to be the upcoming decks to beat, in some form or another.

D&T is always underrepresented online, and I'm worried about Stoneblade since there're a lot of Tundras looking for a home. Things are going to change in the coming weeks as the meta settles more, but if these 3 are somewhere on top BUG Delver is looking like it's in a good spot.

Hymn to Tourach is a hell of a magic card, and it's something that none of these decks are happy to see. Leovold, Emissary of Trest speaks for himself at this point, and though it's not the most delver-style card, it needs to be answered ASAP.

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Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl

Hymn to Tourach is a hell of a magic card, and it's something that none of these decks are happy to see. Leovold, Emissary of Trest speaks for himself at this point, and though it's not the most delver-style card, it needs to be answered ASAP.

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This is exactly where I am at. I really think BUG Delver with double black form Hymn and Liliana is very well positioned. There is a great clock, great disruption, and great removal spells. We also get sideboard options to help against a number of decks. PLUS what other tempo deck gets to jam two Liliana of the Veil maindeck to handle True-Name Nemesis and other trouble creatures.

Sorry, not a huge value add post, but I am just very excited for how BUG Delver stacks up in Legacy right now.

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Originally Posted by btm10

4-0'ed FNM last night with the most boring list ever:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spell Pierce

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dead Weight

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I really like the look of this list! I'm curious about the -1 Underground Sea +1 Tropical Island in the manabase, though. Was the extra Tropical ever awkward in a 4 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Liliana of the Veil deck? I've been meaning to add it as a fourth green source to make casting Leovolds easier but I worry about not being able to cast double black spells because of it.

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Originally Posted by RStien321

This is exactly where I am at. I really think BUG Delver with double black form Hymn and Liliana is very well positioned. There is a great clock, great disruption, and great removal spells. We also get sideboard options to help against a number of decks. PLUS what other tempo deck gets to jam two Liliana of the Veil maindeck to handle True-Name Nemesis and other trouble creatures.

Sorry, not a huge value add post, but I am just very excited for how BUG Delver stacks up in Legacy right now.

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Yeah, I think BUG is the best-positioned Delver deck at the moment. Grixis is a lot less expensive to actually put together, but BUG is a lot more powerful (if marginally worse against Baleful Strix).

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Originally Posted by Grand Superior

I really like the look of this list! I'm curious about the -1 Underground Sea +1 Tropical Island in the manabase, though. Was the extra Tropical ever awkward in a 4 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Liliana of the Veil deck? I've been meaning to add it as a fourth green source to make casting Leovolds easier but I worry about not being able to cast double black spells because of it.

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Thanks! I like the second Trop since it makes you a little more resistant to Wasteland. Sea and Bayou are your baseline duals, but sometimes you want to prioritize protecting blue mana/Daze lands in the Delver mirror or against D&T while still having access to your green cards.

Hey, y'all, I'm testing decks for GP Vegas, and after a few weeks of testing, BUG Delver is one I'm strongly considering. I've been playing BUG Midrange, 4C Delver, and Czech Pile for a while, but I'm thinking that BUG Delver is a better choice because the clock is better, and it (should be) favored against Grixis.

I have some questions about lists:

- What's the consensus on Leovold and Jace? BUG Delver was always more midrange-y, but additional 3- and 4-drops in this faster meta could prove clunky.

- 19 or 20 lands? I guess the number of 3-drops helps answer that. Currently I'm on 19 and playing 2 Lili and 1 Leovold.

- How many sweeper effects are you playing in your 75? Do you think a maindeck Golgari Charm is too narrow? I figure it hits Elves, most of DnT (which, I think, will be popular in Vegas), turn 1 Empty tokens (if TES becomes the Storm deck of choice), TNNs, Young Pyromancer and his Elemental friends, and even Blood Moon. It does little against Eldrazi, the mirror, and Lands, of course.

- How often are you boarding out Hymns, and generally how many?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by theMonster

- What's the consensus on Leovold and Jace? BUG Delver was always more midrange-y, but additional 3- and 4-drops in this faster meta could prove clunky.

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I play one Leovold and zero Jace. Both are pretty difficult to cast in the face of Port or Wasteland, and they also are both answered by Red Blast. They're really powerful cards that need to be answered ASAP, but the reliability of casting them and having them on board for X amount of turns is my issue with the cards.

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- 19 or 20 lands? I guess the number of 3-drops helps answer that. Currently I'm on 19 and playing 2 Lili and 1 Leovold.

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I'm currently at 19 lands and two 3-drops in the main: one Lili, and one Leovold. There's a Clique in the board, but it's something that I could cut once the meta settles. If you plan on playing Jace, it's a pretty good idea to play 4 Underground Seas and 20 lands.

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- How many sweeper effects are you playing in your 75? Do you think a maindeck Golgari Charm is too narrow? I figure it hits Elves, most of DnT (which, I think, will be popular in Vegas), turn 1 Empty tokens (if TES becomes the Storm deck of choice), TNNs, Young Pyromancer and his Elemental friends, and even Blood Moon. It does little against Eldrazi, the mirror, and Lands, of course.

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Golgari Charm answers a ton of problem cards, including True-Name Nemesis alongside what you've said already. Also gets around Mother of Runes' protection. Two is a good plan, or two of the following cards (depending on if you play TNN yourself): Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, or Marsh Casualties.

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- How often are you boarding out Hymns, and generally how many?

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Hymn boarding is like Daze. It's at it's best on the play, and okay on the draw, so you keep a few if you're considering cutting. Obviously it's gone against Reanimator or Dredge, but I tend to keep 3-4 against midrange decks or delver mirrors. It's a mediocre top-deck, and if you expect it to be a long round, cutting one or two is a good trade if you have high-impact cards to bring in, like Painful Truths.

It seems like we're working on the same decks.

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Originally Posted by theMonster

Hey, y'all, I'm testing decks for GP Vegas, and after a few weeks of testing, BUG Delver is one I'm strongly considering. I've been playing BUG Midrange, 4C Delver, and Czech Pile for a while, but I'm thinking that BUG Delver is a better choice because the clock is better, and it (should be) favored against Grixis.

I have some questions about lists:

- What's the consensus on Leovold and Jace? BUG Delver was always more midrange-y, but additional 3- and 4-drops in this faster meta could prove clunky.

- 19 or 20 lands? I guess the number of 3-drops helps answer that. Currently I'm on 19 and playing 2 Lili and 1 Leovold.
!

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I think 19 vs. 20 lands is a mixture of risk tolerance (19 can be quite tight with more than 2-3 3-or-higher drops, but you'll flood more with 20) and how grindy you want to get postboard. In the current meta I'd lean toward 19 maindeck lands and a utility land (like Creeping Tar Pit) in the board if you're boarding in Jace or planning on grinding very hard postboard. Crucible and/or Loam are also appealing in that case. I like having access to powerful cards n postboard games, but 2UU is a ton of mana, and TNN, Leovold, and Pyroblast all make Jace potentially quite awkward.

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How many sweeper effects are you playing in your 75? Do you think a maindeck Golgari Charm is too narrow? I figure it hits Elves, most of DnT (which, I think, will be popular in Vegas), turn 1 Empty tokens (if TES becomes the Storm deck of choice), TNNs, Young Pyromancer and his Elemental friends, and even Blood Moon. It does little against Eldrazi, the mirror, and Lands, of course.

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I'm still on 2 but could easily see wanting a third (probably over Invasive Surgery). I don't hate MD Golgari Charm, but I think it's a meta call.

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- How often are you boarding out Hymns, and generally how many?

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Against Dredge and Reanimator, and little else. In non-combo matchups I like to move my Force/Daze ratio around to optimize my postboard plan and based on play/draw, but I view Hymn as pretty essential across the board. I haven't played the 4c Control matchup from the Delver side yet, but even there on the draw I'd rather have Hymn than Force, I think.

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Originally Posted by theMonster

- What's the consensus on Leovold and Jace? BUG Delver was always more midrange-y, but additional 3- and 4-drops in this faster meta could prove clunky.

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Personally not a fan of either. I could see running one Leovold in the board, but I prefer the fast clock and flying that tombstalker provides.

The three drop I am really considering for the board is Liliana, the Last Hope. Repeatable removal for elves and D&T. It might be a bit too "cute" but I want to try it before GP Vegas.

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Originally Posted by RStien321

The three drop I am really considering for the board is Liliana, the Last Hope. Repeatable removal for elves and D&T. It might be a bit too "cute" but I want to try it before GP Vegas.

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I tested Lili, Last Hope in Czech Pile, and she was great in certain matchups. But then again, that was when Miracles was prevalent; the ultimate was unbeatable. -2ing to get back Snapcasters and Strix, then +1ing to negate a creature was gas against fair decks, but I'm not sure if that's where Delver wants to be. If all they have is a Baleful Strix on board, then yeah, LLH is gonna be good. But I think tempo decks want to be more aggressive. I haven't played her in Delver, though, so I could be wrong. Maybe I'll sleeve up one for an FNM or something - there's a preponderance of DnT by me.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'd like to try a Loam in the sideboard. Anyone run the Cabal Pit plan? How's that been? I probably won't play Jace 'cuz I'd rather skimp on lands. Clique is an interesting sideboard card. I've loved Clique in other decks, so I wonder how it's been for those who run it in Delver. I've had very little success with Tar Pit, especially if Pyroblast is everywhere. No more Miracles makes it worse, too.

I've always liked Clique in Delver. It's at its best in matches where Goyf is bad, so -X Goyf, +X Leovold+Clique is often a good way to approach sideboarding for combo and control.

The place I like Liliana, the Last Hope most is against Czech Pile since it's such a clean way to deal with Baleful Strix, but she's good against Elves and D&T too.

This is the last Malimujo's list.
He play, as always, 1 Tombstalker in main and a nice Dead Weight in sideboard.
The only card we can't see here is Vendilion Clique (anyway a very good card in this meta imho, same for Leovold obv).
After some test the deck looks very solid with this 75 and, obv, Jace + Lili vs some decks give us a lot of control and 2 different plan in mid/late game vs the decks who can obligate us to find a different approach then Delver.



Team America

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Brainstorm
1 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach


Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Dead Weight
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

Why 1x Snapcaster on the SB? Wondering where you bring that in.

I try 1x Snapcaster in side.
Very nice.
I bring it in vs control and combo, where is possible to flashback some very strong cards like Thoughseize or Flusterstorm and put into board a 2/1 wiithout tapping out in my turn.
Snapcaster is one of my favorite cards and, in this meta, have a strong impact vs this decks.

[SCD: Sinkhole]

Interesting UB(g) Delver Stifle + Sinkhole variant that took down an MKM Trial over the weekend:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15624&f=LE

19 LANDS
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker
2 True-Name Nemesis

29 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Sinkhole
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize

SIDEBOARD
2 Baleful Strix
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
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Just a few questions to the group at large:

- Is Sinkhole a viable way to constrict our opponents resources (as opposed to Hymn)?

- Is playing a pair of Thoughtseize along-side Stifle reasonable? (I assume you have to wait till T2+ to TS if you have Stifle in hand) - tempo vs tap-out type of plans

- Thoughts on the basic Island and Swamp as ways to overcome the mirror/Wasteland decks? -- I've had poor results with basic lands in Delver shells historically, but this one is basically just two color so might be a different story.

Sinkhole is fine alongside Stifle, but I don't see the attraction to mana denial as "plan A" in Delver right now. Not only is Deathrite ubiquitous, but mana denial is also the weakest form of disruption against combo. That list likely got a lot of value from the surprise factor, but I'm skeptical of its long-term chances if it becomes a known quantity.

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Originally Posted by btm10

That list likely got a lot of value from the surprise factor, but I'm skeptical of its long-term chances if it becomes a known quantity.

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Why? What are they gonna do? Fetch basics?
Mana denial's weak point is mostly storm IMO, and ANT often gets away with it by fetching basics; which sinkhole actually messes up. Not the most amazing card in the history of the game, but I don't get how knowing you're getting sinkholed while Delver/goyfs beat you up helps you. A 12-land deck isn't going to mull for more lands I don't think.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd at least like justification of your point as right now it's an unsubstantiated claim. Why is sinkhole worse if you know about it? It's worse against Delver/Aggro because of the low curve, but it's good against the midrange goodstuffs that can't hardly pay their mana; and against Combos that rely on basics (Sneakshow, Omnishow, Ant, to a lesser degree Elves) a sinkhole can result in an easy win. I think Stoneblade decks are especially weak to it since they bank on basics getting them from a-to-b against delver

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Why? What are they gonna do? Fetch basics?
Mana denial's weak point is mostly storm IMO, and ANT often gets away with it by fetching basics; which sinkhole actually messes up. Not the most amazing card in the history of the game, but I don't get how knowing you're getting sinkholed while Delver/goyfs beat you up helps you. A 12-land deck isn't going to mull for more lands I don't think.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd at least like justification of your point as right now it's an unsubstantiated claim. Why is sinkhole worse if you know about it? It's worse against Delver/Aggro because of the low curve, but it's good against the midrange goodstuffs that can't hardly pay their mana; and against Combos that rely on basics (Sneakshow, Omnishow, Ant, to a lesser degree Elves) a sinkhole can result in an easy win. I think Stoneblade decks are especially weak to it since they bank on basics getting them from a-to-b against delver

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Sinkholing a deck full of mana creatures seems like a truly terrible plan, and it's not much better against decks that run tons of accelerants in the form of Sol lands, Rituals, and Lotus Petals and have the ability to win off of a single land. Once someone knows to expect Sinkhole they're much less likely to do things like keep one-landers, or throw back extra lands with Brainstorm, or shuffle two-land Ponders once they already have a second land in play.

Hi guys,

New to the forum but been interested in BUG Delver for ages. I was hoping to get some advice on manabase composition (kinda ties in with the previous posts about the Stifle + Sinkhole list posted above)...

I am about 99% of the way there getting the deck built but only have access to 3 Underground Seas, 1 Tropical Island and 2 Bayous... I have been considering that I need another coloured source but wasn't sure if it was worth adding a basic Island or a Watery Grave?

Any advice?

The list I am building is...

4 Delver
4 Deathrite
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True Name
2 Leovold
1 Gurglemag

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Decay
2 Push
4 Hymn

10 assorted fetches (Deltas/Verdants/Mistys)
3 Seas
1 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland

Recently made the switch from 4 Goyfs to a 2/2 split with True Name hence the need for more lands.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer

only have access to 3 Underground Seas, 1 Tropical Island and 2 Bayous... I have been considering that I need another coloured source but wasn't sure if it was worth adding a basic Island or a Watery Grave?

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Usually 6 fetchable sources is normal. The main argument for running the full 4 U-Seas is if you're planning to play Jace, the Mind Sculptor out of the sideboard. I wouldn't add another coloured source, but Basic Island is the worst choice.

Basics are good if you have a lot to work with, but the mana bases in delver decks are so tight that you can't afford to. It sounds good on the surface, to "play around Wasteland", but the best actual way to do that here is slam duals and get wasted. Basic Island doesn't cast DRS on turn one, doesnt cast Hymn on two, and leads to deceptively terrible opening hands.

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10 assorted fetches (Deltas/Verdants/Mistys)
3 Seas
1 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland

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Looking at this, I would be playing 9 fetches, the same 3/1/2 split of Sea/Trop/Bayou, but I would really look for the 4th Wasteland. So many games are won off of the back of this card. If you want 20 lands, then 10 fetches and the 3/1/2/4 mana source lands are what I would run.

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2 True Name
2 Leovold

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Although this isn't what you asked, I'd be very nervous playing four hard-to-cast-3-drops in BUG Delver. Has this creature base been working out for you? I prefer to have a list that's lower to the ground, because in my experience, tapping out on T2 for one threat is a lot more comfortable than on T3.

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Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl

Although this isn't what you asked, I'd be very nervous playing four hard-to-cast-3-drops in BUG Delver. Has this creature base been working out for you? I prefer to have a list that's lower to the ground, because in my experience, tapping out on T2 for one threat is a lot more comfortable than on T3.

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Although TNN costs 3, it is a hard to kill him, some decks just can't. With Jitte is even better.

A way to minimize 3cc drops is using 2/4/1 TNN/Goyfs/Angler or Tomstalker. Opinions? Thanks!

Hey guys,

I would like to gain some input, last week I cut through the knot and ordered 3 underground sea's, 1 tropical, 2 goyf. I already have the largest part of the BUG shell [FOW's, 2 TNN, 2-3 liliana, 1 jace]

I have some question regarding the land base:
#1: Fetches, I have 4 polluted delta's, I see people here using misty rainforest and verdant catacombs as the other fetches. Which one is the most important? Or should I get like a 3/3 split? The total amount is 10 from what I see here, would like to know which one is also rated the more important one, catacombs or misty?

#2: Can I get away with 3 underground sea's? Or is the 4th one a hard needed part of the list? I also see people vary here with 3-4 sea's and 1-2 trops. Can you point out the main deciding factor that makes you choose a 4/1 or a 3/2 split? (I assume TNN, Liliana]

#3 2 Goyf is all im gonna buy, tbh I hate this card to its guts [as opposing Elf or Dnt player I always so easily hold back goyfs that I don't see the rsn why he should cost that much $$] Is it viable to go like a 2 TNN 2 Goyf 1 Leovold ? I see some people here cutting goyfs entirely, others pointed out that Goyf is better in a heavier combo meta, whereas TNN is better in a fair meta. Did I read and interpret this right?

#4 No basics, you guys might be used to this but I dread this as a non blue Legacy player. From what I read people opt to run 2 basics max, do these take the fetch slots?

Would appreciate if someone would post 2-3 landbases and explain a bit which one belongs to what sort of shell. - 1 list including 2 basics-

#5 Daze, a card which I see many of you run, but a card that I don't like at all in Legacy. Granted aside of a short time with Infect I never played blue in legacy, thing is, Daze is a card that loses value fast, how much ''better'' is daze then spell pierce? Is spell pierce a legit replacement or is the daze essential for the tempo plan?

List im currently working towards:
4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Goyf
2 TNN
1 Leovold

4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Abrupt decay
3 Hymm to tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Spell pierce

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 JTMS


4 Wasteland
3 Underground sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical
3 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest

SB
1 Golgari charm
1 Pithing needle
3 fatal push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Null rod
1 Sylvan library
1 Vendillion clique
1 Diablic edict
1 Surgical extraction
1 Spell pierce
1 Invasive surgery

Thank you for your time in advance.

1. It doesn't matter which BUG fetches you run. Misty, Catacombs, and Delta all find all of your duals.

2. Yes. A fourth Sea and second Bayou stabilize your BB a little, but 3/2/1 Sea/Trop/Bayou is workable with 9-10 fetches.

3. 2 Goyf is fine (it's really at its worst against D&T and Elves; it's the most important creature against Eldrazi and 4c Loam), but I'd run a singleton TNN and a Delve fatty (probably Tombstalker) rather than 2 TNN and a maindeck Leovold.

4. No basics. You end up either dedicating too many slots to lands or being unable to cast your spells if you run basics. The Stifle version can sort of accomodate an Island, but even that's suboptimal and makes you worse against Wasteland. You need to be able to cast Deathrite, Delver, Goyf, Decay, and Hymn off of two lands. Shardless and BUG midrange/control run 21-23 lands (and fewer Wastelands) and can accommodate the basics.

5. Daze has a steep learning curve and a high floor. It's often just a free counter if your opponent taps out, but mid-to-late game Dazes offer you an opportunity to squeeze out tight games by stopping an opponent from casting two spells in one turn, or recurring Punishing Fire, or equipping a creature with Jitte/Sword for the turn you need to untap and cast Decay or push one last attack through to win. It also lets you extract slightly more value from lategame Brainstorms by bouncing a land to tax your opponent for a turn and then shuffling the land back. There are all kinds of other uses for Daze as well. The card is sometimes frustrating, but playing it is a huge benefit of playing a Delver deck.

Also, you should definitely be running at least a third Ponder before you add a 13th creature, and MD Jace is somewhat questionable to begin with since you don't have a ton of great blockers and or sweepers to stabilize the board before dropping him. Eight filtering slots are basically essential to running such a mana-intensive deck on 18-20 lands, and whether that's 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder or 4 Brainstorm/3 Ponder/1 Sylvan Library generally doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Emurian

Hey guys,

I would like to gain some input, last week I cut through the knot and ordered 3 underground sea's, 1 tropical, 2 goyf. I already have the largest part of the BUG shell [FOW's, 2 TNN, 2-3 liliana, 1 jace]

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Hey congrats,

The above post by BTM covers everything really well--what I have to say doesn't add too much information, so I'll only add a bit to some of your quesitons.


3) Goyf is your fastest clock. It's a vanilla idiot, but it's almost always a 4/5 on turn 2, and against combo it's the best way to ensure a threat and then hold up interaction for the following turns. Delver requires (some) setup and DRS needs one untapped land each turn, so they're a little more unreliable at closing the games quickly. They are better as slower, but evasive threats.

4) I would say zero basics is the appropriate max. Delver decks have intense mana costs, and basics actually do more harm than good when ever land needs to cast something ASAP. Basics also convince you to keep unassumingly bad hands, or force you to mulligan good hands that you would have kept if you had fetches or duals instead.

For example, look at this mull to 6:

Island, Deathrite Shaman, Wasteland, Hymn to Tourach, Ponder, Fatal Push.

If the land is legitimately any other mana source than Wasteland, it's great. The problem arises when you think that it's keepable because you have Island + Ponder turn one, but you're literally high-rolling to hit a second land, and even then you aren't slamming Hymn on curve. If you don't find a second land, it's game over, whereas you can survive on a single dual land and Deathrite to stabilize for a little bit.

What I'm getting at here is basics lead to deceptively bad hands. Protecting yourself from opposing Wastelands is done best by having a variety of dual lands in play, instead of one and a basic.

5) I agree with you that Daze is a card that loses value fast, and it's one of the cards that goes to sideboard and back to maindeck in games 2 and 3. The way that it's "better" than Spell Pierce is that it costs "zero" mana.

More appropriately, it allows you to tap-out on your main phase, and still have protection for something that your opponent is going to do. Protecting your Turn 1 Deathrite from a Bolt with Daze puts you really far ahead in the tempo gameplan. Alongside your own Wastelands, the "pay 1" aspect of Daze is really relevant, even if it seems that your opponents can easily play around it.

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Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl

5) I agree with you that Daze is a card that loses value fast, and it's one of the cards that goes to sideboard and back to maindeck in games 2 and 3. The way that it's "better" than Spell Pierce is that it costs "zero" mana.

More appropriately, it allows you to tap-out on your main phase, and still have protection for something that your opponent is going to do. Protecting your Turn 1 Deathrite from a Bolt with Daze puts you really far ahead in the tempo gameplan. Alongside your own Wastelands, the "pay 1" aspect of Daze is really relevant, even if it seems that your opponents can easily play around it.

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Daze is also an ideal counterspell in the early turns against combo. It allows the deck to tap out on turn 2 for Hymn and still have a zero mana interaction spell at the ready. BUG built with Hymn wants to tap out every turn and it gains its tempo from that way of deck construction. Spell pierece and stifle run against that grain while daze compliments it perfectly.

Daze plays out differently in different matchups, and aside from brainstorm is the most skill intensive card in the deck. The biggest mistake I see players make with daze is, on the play in a Delver mirror, have no turn one play and daze an opponents spell. This gives up the mana advantage of being on the play and your opponent is a card up.

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Originally Posted by Emurian

#2: Can I get away with 3 underground sea's? Or is the 4th one a hard needed part of the list? I also see people vary here with 3-4 sea's and 1-2 trops. Can you point out the main deciding factor that makes you choose a 4/1 or a 3/2 split? (I assume TNN, Liliana]

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Personally, I feel very uncomfortable running only six fetchable lands. Also, I think the 2nd bayou is required if you're going to run Hymn. You can get away with a 3-2-2 distribution though, I did it for years before i could get my hands on the fourth Usea.

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Originally Posted by grizzle_grizzle

Personally, I feel very uncomfortable running only six fetchable lands. Also, I think the 2nd bayou is required if you're going to run Hymn. You can get away with a 3-2-2 distribution though, I did it for years before i could get my hands on the fourth Usea.

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7 fetchable is much better in the face of Wastelands, also. Even then, there are the awful times where you get locked out of Green mana versus a good draw from D&T between Wastes and Ports. Also, keep in mind that the 20 land versions were mostly made to leverage Liliana of the Veil too, so the greater land count also supported a higher-than-usual Delver curve. Versus most decks that didn't run Wastelands, I would often board out a Bayou.

I believe that Bob Huang, aka Griselpuff, was (at least) top 4 at yesterday's Quest for Power 113 person event with this deck. I'd guess he was on the Hymn version, because that is what he usually favors.

I was hoping to get feedback on a few questions regarding BUG Delver. To preface, I cashed out of the game 4 years ago and sold most of my stuff that wasn't on the reserve list. Getting back in the game now and seeing the number of reprints, I'm much, much less comfortable buying things that are highly priced but definitely going to be reprinted in this case: Goyf and Liliana of the Veil. So I'm trying to find a BUG Delver shell that works without them, but I fully recognize this might not be possible. So if you can humor my suboptimal suggestions, I'd like some feedback on these ideas:

- Is it even worth trying to make BUG Delver work without Goyfs/Lilianas? I can just as easily jam Grixis Delver, but there is something so satisfying about playing Hymn, Abrupt Decay, and having DRS actually be in your colors.

- Here is the creature base I was thinking of running in lieu of having Goyfs:

Creatures (13):
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Tombstalker
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

I got rolled this weekend by DnT where my curve felt a little too high, but in playing against it last night I went 4-0 in games, so I'm wondering if it might have just been draws/pilot. TNN and Tombstalker are amazing when I can get them down.

- My meta is particularly combo heavy so I'm running an additional Thoughtseize in the main/2 in the board. I'm currently running 6 removal spells in 4 Abrupt Decay/2 Fatal Push. What mix of removal do you run? I was think of dropping an AD to go up to a 2nd Thoughtseize maindeck.

- I mostly like my board, but I don't feel like I ever bring in JTMS. I'm running 20 lands to support all my 3-drops, so I was thinking of cutting him to jam two Dread of Nights in the board but that feels like overkill. I was really liking the singleton Loam and Library out of the board, both of those are awesome for grindy MUs.

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Invasive Surgery
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Dismember
1x Fatal Push
2x Marsh Casualties

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Originally Posted by apistat_commander

- Is it even worth trying to make BUG Delver work without Goyfs/Lilianas? I can just as easily jam Grixis Delver, but there is something so satisfying about playing Hymn, Abrupt Decay, and having DRS actually be in your colors.

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There are indeed plenty of upsides to being in BUG. While 'Goyf is a damn good card, I think it is possible, even if not exactly optimal, to do without him. Liliana is definitely a mixed bag, depending on your meta. When she is good, she is really good. When she is bad, she is really bad. Plenty of people who own them never run them either.

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Originally Posted by apistat_commander

- Here is the creature base I was thinking of running in lieu of having Goyfs:

Creatures (13):
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Tombstalker
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

I got rolled this weekend by DnT where my curve felt a little too high, but in playing against it last night I went 4-0 in games, so I'm wondering if it might have just been draws/pilot. TNN and Tombstalker are amazing when I can get them down.

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Well, Death and Taxes is a rough matchup 'Goyf or not, even though he does help sometimes. While this configuration feels a little light on aggressiveness, I don't think it is bad, per se. Just possibly awkward. Especially versus something like Death and Taxes. Honestly, I personally think that if you want to eschew 'Goyfs, I'd drop Delver altogether and go a little bigger, more mid-range, because TA's tempo plan is already not great and no real two drops certainly compounds that problem.

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Originally Posted by apistat_commander

- My meta is particularly combo heavy so I'm running an additional Thoughtseize in the main/2 in the board. I'm currently running 6 removal spells in 4 Abrupt Decay/2 Fatal Push. What mix of removal do you run? I was think of dropping an AD to go up to a 2nd Thoughtseize maindeck.

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That seems like a very meta dependent question. If the meta is a Combo-centric as you seem to imply, I don't think that is a bad choice at all.

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Originally Posted by apistat_commander

- I mostly like my board, but I don't feel like I ever bring in JTMS. I'm running 20 lands to support all my 3-drops, so I was thinking of cutting him to jam two Dread of Nights in the board but that feels like overkill. I was really liking the singleton Loam and Library out of the board, both of those are awesome for grindy MUs.

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Invasive Surgery
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Dismember
1x Fatal Push
2x Marsh Casualties

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Jace is really good, but you've got to feel confident in bringing him in where he can shine. He is the king top-deck, since he almost certainly wins the game on an empty board. But you don't want him versus things like Death and Taxes, because you probably won't ever cast him. You want him in grindy mid-range mirrors (D&T is a different animal) mostly. Although, I don't think it is bad to bring him in versus combo, even though you might be dead before you cast him. In this case he adds to your Blue count for FOW and if you can hit them with discard early then land him, +2 can hold them off assembling a combo on you.

Why would you want marsh casualties over golgari charm? Charm is soooo flexible killing all the things mc does but also kills enchantments which is really important. I can understand running casualties if you're trying to win the goyf fight, but I feel like we have that covered pretty well with decays, push, lotv, etc.

Marsh Casualties is better when you're running your own True-Name Nemesis, because G-Charm wraths your own board as well.

There are also fringe cases where you get to kick it and wrath things like Deathblade, Elf, or similar boardstates. Not exactly where you want to be and not the reason for putting it there, but it's not a strictly worse GCharm

All valid points. I don't play tnn so it never hurts me but i can't say enough but how good golgari charm x2 has been for me. I literally just played a tezzerator player and wrathed his board one game and in another game I planned on killing his chains and then switched gears when he played ee on one after playing his strix and being unable to activate that turn allowed me to turn around and save my guys from the ee.

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Originally Posted by dredge90

All valid points. I don't play tnn so it never hurts me but i can't say enough but how good golgari charm x2 has been for me. I literally just played a tezzerator player and wrathed his board one game and in another game I planned on killing his chains and then switched gears when he played ee on one after playing his strix and being unable to activate that turn allowed me to turn around and save my guys from the ee.

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There is no doubt that Charm is far more flexible and therefor has a good deal more utility, in the above proposed list I think killing your own TNN is just not an acceptable compromise. It just has to be Casualties in that case, really.

It's not like that is so outlandish, the 18 Land, Stifle-Consfidant lists ran 2x Casualties in the board too.