[Deck & Primer] UGB Intuition-Thresh

Quick update:

I'm roughly 42% done updating at this point. I think I've found a site that will host the PDF, so I think I'll just do it that way and save server- and post-space here. Unfortunately, that means that I have to undo my UBB Coding and fix the hypertext links, and that's a menial chore that takes forever.


Now that Zendikar is fully spoiled and I'm done defending my thesis, I expect this newest primer to be up in a couple of weeks. Zendikar seems to have added very little to the deck beyond enemy fetch possibilities, which at least saves me some testing.

Scute Bug seems decent enough seeing as it's a cheap tempo play early and it becomes huge once the deck enters the midgame. Probably not better than Mongoose, but warrants testing imo.

I've been playing a large amount of different decks lately, and I've come up with a better direction for this deck, I think.

Rather than try to give Threshold a better lategame, and blend a super-tempo oriented deck with a slow control deck, and rather than try to mix aggro/control with (board) control, I think mixing Aggro Loam with Loam Control would be the better route. AKA:

U/G/b Aggro/Control Loam

Lands (22)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
3 Lonely Sandbar

Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Shriekmaw
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis

Spells (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Raven's Crime
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard (15)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress

The deck no longer needs a 1cc 3/3 untargetable in the current format we are in, and there is absolutely no reason to not run Terravore in Intuition/Loam. 3cc is not much to ask from this deck, and huge tramplers just wins games.

The only reason to splash black is for Raven's Crime and Shriekmaw, otherwise you'd be better off going white. White offers similar cards for the other roles (StP, Oblivion Ring, Wrath of God, etc), and Knight of the Reliquary is pretty badass. For those versions of Intuition Thresh not running Raven's Crime but running black... what is wrong with you? I do believe that the black splash is the better splash, though.

Cephalid Coliseum is pretty dumb. Gigapede does the same discard effect but is actually a relevant card for your strategy, and Coliseum's card quality exchange is inferior to Lonely Sandbar. Lonely Sandbar is amazing in here, essentially making Loam a. [1GUUU: draw 3 cards] spell every turn you need to draw cards, in the mid-late game. Of course, you don't need all 3 Sandbar's for this to be effective, and running 3 works out beautifully with Intuition (this is tried and true from my Loam Control deck I've been playing alot lately).

The deck generates massive card advantage through Loam/cyclers and Genesis. Combined with Raven's Crime, the deck absolutely smashes control and aggro/control. Hell, even a hardcast Shriekmaw creates card advantage. Card advantage is what this deck is all about, and why it wins games. Having big ass beats like Tarmogoyf and Terravore just make those wins faster.

4/3 Shriekmaw/Pulse is plenty enough removal MD when you're dropping big guns like Terravore.

The deck has 1 Maelstrom 4 Deed postboard to handle everything else.

Deed is great against fast aggro swarms, which is the only slight weakness I see with this deck. BEB answers red aggro very well, BEB/Duress answer combo/burn very well, and Krosan Grip/Maelstrom answer Counterbalance nicely.

The deck doesn't need graveyard hate for Ichorid; that's the only matchup you'd bring it in against, and you have Pernicious Deed. With Daze/FoW/Goyf, the deck can easily hit 3 land drops to Deed for 0 before dying to tokens.

The only slightly difficult matchups I see are super fast aggro decks like Goyf Sligh and Goblins, which still aren't too bad and the sideboard shores that up.

Opposing Counterbalance can be troublesome, especially those lists with a 3cc curve. Luckily, this deck has the same disruption package with Force of Will and Daze, with Intuition/Raven's Crime being our Counterbalance (lock-esque card). I run 3 Pulse MD which usually answers it, and I also run 4/4/2 Pulse/Deed/Grip postboard vs them if need be (which we don't need all that, that's overkill), and a few spells out of their cc range.

Daze is still badass with Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, and Shriekmaw, because it allows the deck to stall into the mid-late with an aggro/control feel early. It also pushes through a turn 3 Intuition, which is massively important. Being set back a land drop is largely irrelevant, because this deck still does run effectively on a lower curve, has plenty of lands to make land drops, and dominates in the mid-late game anyway.

22 land is important for the deck because it can be mana hungry when it doesn't have Loam online, and more lands in the graveyard is a good thing for Terravore. With Brainstorm and Ponder, more than 22 is unecessary. I've been very satisfied with my manabase thus far.

Urborg is great for enabling an almost instant Raven's Crime lock, Wasteland only needs to be a 1-of with Intuition, and I've already discussed Lonely Sanbdar.

The deck doesn't need Worm Harvest. It's not a tutorable win condition that can fly solo like Gigapede (requires Loam to consistently have lands in hand to discard), doesn't provide anything else outside of being a slow win condition (discard effect for Genesis via Gigapede), and is no less resilient than Gigapede (untargetibility vs mass swarm of 1/1's). It's a solid anti-mass aggro answer, but it's honestly too slow to be relevant against those decks anyway. Worm Harvest is great in Loam Control but totally unnecessary in here.

This current decklist seems to improve Aggro Loam's bad matchups without sacrificing many of it's good ones. Evolution of Aggro Loam, maybe? Seems like the right direction for both CounterTop Thresh to go, too (obv Canadian Threshold has its niche).

The only thing I'm considering is whether or not Mox Diamond would be worth the space.

Thoughts?

I bet Terravore isn't that much better/worse than Tombstalker, and Lonely Sandbar isn't nearly as good as you say it is, because it eats 3 slots compared to Cephalid Coliseums 0 slots.

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I bet Terravore isn't that much better/worse than Tombstalker, and Lonely Sandbar isn't nearly as good as you say it is, because it eats 3 slots compared to Cephalid Coliseums 0 slots.

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Tombstalker eats your graveyard to be a 5/5 flyer, whether it costs BB (optimal), or more than BB. Terravore comes down as large as the lands are, whether that be 7/7 or 14/14, and trample is relatively the same as flying, when guys get that big. He doesn't eat your yard, and can be continuously recurred by Genesis, so unless the opponent has Swords to Plowshares, Terravore is eventually going to end the game. Tombstalker eats your yard each time, which contradicts this decks gameplan. In no way are the two comparable. Aggro Loam is R/G/b, should they drop Terravore for Tombstalker?

In no way am I downplaying Tombstalker. Tombstalker is an amazing creature, and in the right decks, is absolutely devastating. In this deck, though, he's just not the best fit.

Lonely Sandbar is rediculously good. Early game, if you see them, they are cantrips. Late game, they are your draw engine. Aggro Loam runs 7 cyclers, I run 3, so I fail to see how they significantly affect the deck. My list runs 22 lands, most lists run 19, so they aren't even replacing actual lands. Try them before you knock them; Intuition for Loam/Sandbar/Sandbar is sometimes a great pile.

Coliseum absolutely sucks. I advocated it so hard for such a long time, but honestly, it's one of the worst cards in the deck. To use its discard effect, you're wasting your land drop. The only time it's good to waste a land drop is for a game-winning Wastelock. Otherwise, you want to mana ramp as much as possible. Gigapede is a great card regardless of its discard effect, but the discard effect on its own replaces Coliseum. Coliseum's card quality trade in for Loam requires a land drop, another blue source, and only gives you +2 card advantage (because Coliseum takes away 1), and is no way near as smooth as Lonely Sandbar. Not only that, Sandbar is amazing at dodging gy hate against Loam, like Crypt and Relic (resp, Sanbdar, dredge Loam to hand).

I can't explain why the decklist I posted is so innovatingly amazing, I can only ask that you please test it. I know that it's downright disgusting, and can easily be a DTB if enough people play it.

HOWEVER, I forgot to add 1 Life from the Loam to the decklist I posted. So I need to cut 1 card to fit it. That really sucks, because the list seemed so perfect. I can't cut Pulse down to 2, because 3 makes it tutorable with Intuition if necessary. Seems like Shriekmaw is the only possible cut, so there it is.

Fair enough, even still, what's the point of not running Balance/Top if you're not running Pernicious Deed? If all you're running is Force/Daze, you're incredibly disruption light. I'm also still not convinced Terravore is going to get any bigger than Lorescale, Terravore is pretty "meh" until you bin Intuition/Loam.

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Fair enough, even still, what's the point of not running Balance/Top if you're not running Pernicious Deed? If all you're running is Force/Daze, you're incredibly disruption light. I'm also still not convinced Terravore is going to get any bigger than Lorescale, Terravore is pretty "meh" until you bin Intuition/Loam.

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CB/Top is mainly unnecessary. What CB/Top does for Threshold is give it a mid-late game engine that creates card advantage and a potential lock. What this deck does instead is utilize a different engine as a means of card advantage and a potential lock (Raven's Crime/Wasteland). If the deck had enough room to fit the CB/Top combo, I'd gladly run it. I don't, so I don't.

FoW/Daze is disruption light, but how is that any worse than Aggro Loam's current 4 Chalice of the Void? The only matchup that's relevant against is combo, which your less likely to come up against than other matchups. Postboard, BEB/Duress is enough to do what needs to be done.

Terravore vs Lorescale is like the difference between Werebear and Quirion Dryad. Terravore comes down big, Lorescale has to grow first. With or without the Loam engine, Terravore is still going to be big, and the fact that he has trample is what makes him truly lethal. In all honesty, why would you not run him in a Loam shell? Lorescale's not bad, but as an immediate cast, it's only a 2/2, and requires Brainstorm/Ponder/Lonely Sandbar to get an immediate grow. Even if Lorescale grows to a 14/14, a simple 1/1 is going to chump block it unless you hit it with removal. It's best point is that it's blue for FoW, but I already run 20 blue spells.

I don't really see why you keep comparing it to aggro-loam, it's really just an Intuition fueled aggro-control deck. I mean, the big difference between aggro-loam and this is that aggro-loam actually beats Zoo and Goblins - I'm not really convinced this deck manages vs the swarm really well. That's where Balance/Top is pretty much amazing, it's a lock that counters, where Zoo is just going to top deck their burn vs your Raven's Crime and burn you out.

I really don't think there's been much of an improvement, Force/Daze doesn't really deal with combo and now you're getting beat on by aggro to boot with out Deed.

Glad to see another post by you, Hanni. Although I'm not convinced that the Aggro-Loam option is better than the Hierarch/Finks/Snuff Out option, I'll be testing it out comparatively before releasing my new primer. After all, if your option is better, then my primer would be a little off the mark.

What I like and think that I can incorporate is the use of Urborg to stabilise Raven's Crime, making it more effective: I've been running a second basic Swamp, but Urborg makes a great deal of sense. The one question would be whether or not it interferes with the intuition pile (I assume you can't usually fetch Wasteland, but that's OK). In any case, I'll be giving that a spin in my own version as well.

What I don't like is the fact that Terravore means that graveyard hate will be coming in against the deck. Currently, people see Genesis or Loam and decide to bring in the graveyard hate, not realising that it's virtually useless and a waste of slots. When you're beating with Terravore, however, they're guaranteed to bring it in, and it won't be such a waste: it'll neutralise Terravore, as well as be effective against Genesis and Loam. That makes it a lot harder to play around the hate. Of course, Vore's sheer power may be sufficient to ensure that this isn't a serious problem, and can still be played around effectively. Nonetheless, it's a prima facie concern for me. Like Breathweapon, I'm unconvinced about the deck's ability to handle Zoo or Goblins/Merfolk, especially by comparison to my version. If true, then that's a serious concern. But that definitely requires testing to determine.

I will, however, be testing it out alongside my own version to see how different matchups play out.


Also: you're right about CB/Top and Coliseum, and I'm inclined to agree on Vore vs. Tombstalker/Coatl. Still, I'm extremely happy with Finks and Hierarch. :tongue:

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I don't really see why you keep comparing it to aggro-loam, it's really just an Intuition fueled aggro-control deck. I mean, the big difference between aggro-loam and this is that aggro-loam actually beats Zoo and Goblins - I'm not really convinced this deck manages vs the swarm really well. That's where Balance/Top is pretty much amazing, it's a lock that counters, where Zoo is just going to top deck their burn vs your Raven's Crime and burn you out.

I really don't think there's been much of an improvement, Force/Daze doesn't really deal with combo and now you're getting beat on by aggro to boot with out Deed.

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Your standard aggro/control countermagic package, Shriekmaw, and Tarmogoyf play a similar early game as Threshold, which manages to keep Goblins and Zoo at bay early. This is already tried and true. The deck lacks a sweep like Devastating Dreams, but gains increased consistency and enough card advantage to answer what's on the table. Not every aspect of the deck is relevant against fast swarm aggro.

The deck has a mass sweep in the sideboard with Pernicious Deed. If you feel that your particular metagame is extremely aggro-centric, swap them into the maindeck in place of Maelstrom Pulse.

However, those matchups aren't the bad one. The bad matchups are Burn and Goyf Sligh. CB/Top is a great answer to this, but at what extent of other matchups are sacrificed by blending a conflicting engine? If you plan to use the CB/Top engine, you're better off going the Threshold route. There is not enough space to effectively use both and they conflict with internal strategies.

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Glad to see another post by you, Hanni. Although I'm not convinced that the Aggro-Loam option is better than the Hierarch/Finks/Snuff Out option, I'll be testing it out comparatively before releasing my new primer. After all, if your option is better, then my primer would be a little off the mark.

What I like and think that I can incorporate is the use of Urborg to stabilise Raven's Crime, making it more effective: I've been running a second basic Swamp, but Urborg makes a great deal of sense. The one question would be whether or not it interferes with the intuition pile (I assume you can't usually fetch Wasteland, but that's OK). In any case, I'll be giving that a spin in my own version as well.

What I don't like is the fact that Terravore means that graveyard hate will be coming in against the deck. Currently, people see Genesis or Loam and decide to bring in the graveyard hate, not realising that it's virtually useless and a waste of slots. When you're beating with Terravore, however, they're guaranteed to bring it in, and it won't be such a waste: it'll neutralise Terravore, as well as be effective against Genesis and Loam. That makes it a lot harder to play around the hate. Of course, Vore's sheer power may be sufficient to ensure that this isn't a serious problem, and can still be played around effectively. Nonetheless, it's a prima facie concern for me. Like Breathweapon, I'm unconvinced about the deck's ability to handle Zoo or Goblins/Merfolk, especially by comparison to my version. If true, then that's a serious concern. But that definitely requires testing to determine.

I will, however, be testing it out alongside my own version to see how different matchups play out.


Also: you're right about CB/Top and Coliseum, and I'm inclined to agree on Vore vs. Tombstalker/Coatl. Still, I'm extremely happy with Finks and Hierarch.

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The other approach is also viable. Many variations of the same deck are possible. The question that needs to be determined is which one preforms better against a wider variety of matchups, or which one improves the worse matchups without weakening the good ones too much. My approach may be the wrong approach, but it's worth investigating.

Terravore is affected by both graveyards, so the only true answer is Relic. Most opposing decks that run Tarmogoyf don't run Relic. Relic can be problematic, but it's very easy to rebuild the graveyard when you're holding a Lonely Sandbar in hand to dredge Loam back.

Graveyard hate is also counterable. The only unanswerable graveyard hate is Extirpate, which does nothing to affect Terravore.

You know, I came up with the list off of a whim. What I did was mold the deck more after Aggro Loam, since this deck itself has a similar gameplan and Aggro Loam is a tried and true archetype. The difference is that this deck adds blue, which is a better base color in my opinion, and improves alot of Aggro Loam's problems. What I mean is, my current decklist is not necessarily optimal. The aggro matchup is something that I did fail to truly investigate. If the aggro matchup truly is a difficult or bad matchup, it is not very difficult to swap the maindeck Maelstrom Pulses for Pernicious Deed. That's probably the best route to go, and regardless, that makes Terravore even better because the majority of Deed activations are for 2.

U/G/b Aggro/Control Loam

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Tropical Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Bayou
2 [MR] Island (1)
1 [5E] Forest (1)
1 [4E] Swamp (3)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Lonely Sandbar

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Terravore
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [ON] Gigapede
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DDC] Duress

Fixed.

Bumping,

UGB Intuition Aggro-Control

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Gensis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Shriekmaw
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodghast

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit

Basic idea, Bloodghast does 2 things, first it fills the two drop, secondary threat slots we've been looking for while being ridiculous with Intuition. Thankfully, we're not as graveyard dependent either, because even tho' Crypt wipes us, Bloodghast gives us an extra non-Loam Intuition pile to come back with similar to Gigapede (which IMO is best in the SB). EOT Intuition for Bloodghasts, play land, play Bloodghast is 6 power on the board, which is a pretty solid clock by turn 4. You also get to wipe the board with Deed and not really care if you've got a land in hand or you're both in top deck mode.

Since the thread got bumped: I'm still working on the primer. I'm almost done updating the matchup analysis, which is pretty close to the end. Other than that, I just need to smooth out UBB coding issues/figure out just how I should post it.

Breathweapon: interesting list. I'll give it a spin and see what happens.

Breathweapon: Your mana is a bit iffy. I'd suggest running a Bayou over the Island, or finding a way to fit in the fourth Underground Sea. You want :b::b::g: in the first couple of turns, which will be a tall order without Urborg or a fetchland-heavy draw. Bloodghasts tend to get a lot less impressive later on as they get killed by a lot of things, requiring you to either out-creature your opponent (probably not difficult in some matchups) or get recurring Cabal Pit.

I don't know if it's the right thread, but I have an experimental list...

This is my list:

Code:

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// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
    1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    2 [R] Tropical Island
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
    1 [R] Bayou
    4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
    4 [R] Underground Sea
    1 [TE] Wasteland
    1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
    1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
    3 [SHM] Demigod of Revenge
    4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
    4 [TE] Intuition
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    4 [NE] Daze
    4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
    4 [IA] Brainstorm
    1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
    1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
    1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
    3 [IA] Dark Ritual
    3 [LRW] Ponder
    2 [ON] Smother
    1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

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Still testing quite some cards... The removal package for instance and I never Intuitioned for the Academy Ruins package.. And I'm not sure about the removal package.

I was looking for a second thread, instead of Mongoose. Demigod gives the deck a comboesque finish. The problem is I need more lands and Dark Ritual to power it out.

Benie

Bumping, Top 8ed Moscow (3rd Place)

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
1 Raven's Crime

4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Shriekmaw

3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Gigapede

Shifted from tempo to outlast, it's kind of a cross between UGB Intuition Threshold and Team America, except instead of hitting the manabase with the Sinkhole, Stifle and Wasteland team you simply resolve Intuition and then recur the disruption over and over to grind them out of the game or draw/recur threats. Tombstalker, IMO, is the only 2ndary threat worth a damn, it slips thru' Counterbalance and Spellsnare while coming only roughly the same time as Nimble Mongoose.

The aggro match-up is a pain in the ass, but Pernicious Deed lets the deck recover nicely vs Goblins, Merfolk etc. Zoo just burns you out a lot, so I think it's important to have some kind of life gain effect in the future (and SB out Thoughtseize all day)

Congratulations! That's a fantastic finish. What would you thoughts have been on Kitchen Finks?


I've finished the primer for the version I'm advocating (with Hierarch, Finks, and Pulse, from a few pages ago), which is much better against aggro and Zoo than it used to be. All that's left for me to do is fix the UBB Coding so that it can be posted: I'll be sure to post your deck & results. If you have any comments you'd like included, feel free to post or PM them soon.

A deck with both Daze and Deed/Intuition-Loam in it feels schizophrenic to me. Wouldn't you be better off with some kind of disruption/tempo tool which doesn't inhibit your own mana development?

Also, with just a single Wasteland, you can only maintain Wastelock at the cost of skipping all of your draw steps. You could add either more Wastelands or a single Lonely Sandbar if you want to solve this problem.

Kitchen Finks are underwhelming, they're just not a threat and I'd rather try Troll Ascetic, Vampire Nighthawk or River Boa just because they're "parody" in the aggro-control mirror. I settled on Tombstalker because Intuition -> Tombstalker is juicy, juicy goodness and I think in order to be successful all decks need non-symmetrical secondary threats vs Tarmogoyf i.e things like Tombstalker, Terravore, Vendilion Clique etc.

IMO, if you're playing Hierarch and Finks, you should probably be /w and playing Rhox Warmonks instead or dropping Deed for NO. I think Intuition based BANT is probably better than UGB Intuition-Thresh in the field right now, mainly because 4 Rhox Warmonks hitting the board on T2 is nutty vs Zoo (and Zoo was my only loss the whole tournament)

@Illisius, you recur Wasteland and Raven's Crime them with the other lands.

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Originally Posted by Illissius

A deck with both Daze and Deed/Intuition-Loam in it feels schizophrenic to me. Wouldn't you be better off with some kind of disruption/tempo tool which doesn't inhibit your own mana development?

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Daze is necessary for the combo matchup. With Hierarchs and Snuff Out, running it doesn't ultimately harm my version at all. Even if we're talking about Breathweapon's list, though, it's important in order to beat combo consistently/at all.

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Also, with just a single Wasteland, you can only maintain Wastelock at the cost of skipping all of your draw steps. You could add either more Wastelands or a single Lonely Sandbar if you want to solve this problem.

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Brainstorm and Ponder are usually sufficient. The most common type of Wastelock isn't the one where you cut off an opponent's manabase entirely (to do that, you'd need 4 Wastelands and probably Stifle), but rather you pick a colour that's underrepresented on the other side and cut your opponent off from it. With Raven's Crime, it's quite serious; with a creature on the board, it's devastating (in that case, you target the removal colour).

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Kitchen Finks are underwhelming, they're just not a threat and I'd rather try Troll Ascetic, Vampire Nighthawk or River Boa just because they're "parody" in the aggro-control mirror. I settled on Tombstalker because Intuition -> Tombstalker is juicy, juicy goodness and I think in order to be successful all decks need non-symmetrical secondary threats vs Tarmogoyf i.e things like Tombstalker, Terravore, Vendilion Clique etc.

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Well, the idea is that Finks can power through because they hit the board on T2, and Snuff Out, Deed, and Pulse pave the way through Tarmogoyf. Troll Ascetic and River Boa are great, but don't help the Zoo matchup by offsetting lifeloss. My concern with running Tombstalker would mainly be that Team America just does it better, filling the graveyard faster and without letting the opponent develop any resources at all. I don't disagree that a non-symmetrical threat would be ideal, but it seems to me that offsetting life loss is also important, particularly if you can generate enough removal from elsewhere.

I'm disagreeing for the sake of discussion, by the way, not to be obstinate.

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IMO, if you're playing Hierarch and Finks, you should probably be /w and playing Rhox Warmonks instead or dropping Deed for NO. I think Intuition based BANT is probably better than UGB Intuition-Thresh in the field right now, mainly because 4 Rhox Warmonks hitting the board on T2 is nutty vs Zoo (and Zoo was my only loss the whole tournament)

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I haven't really tried NO properly in my current configuration. I'll be doing that this morning. One question, though: how would an Intuition-Bant get 4 RWM out on T2? Not a big issue, obviously, just a point of curiosity. I suspect you exaggerated (:tongue:), but I thought I'd ask, just in case.

You don't run Daze for the combo match up, you run Daze for the aggro match up where stabilizing vs 1 threat gives you time to search for and cast Pernicious Deed. Intuition/Wasteland keeps Daze relevant in the middle/end game to, so it's a non-arguable inclusion IMO.

@Goas,

If you're running Hierarch then you're casting T2 Warmonks, I have a version of Intuition Threshold that drops the Daze/Ponder for Balance/Top and just runs Hierarch and Warmonk as its board stabilizers instead of the 2ndary threat and Pernicious Deed. Warmonk is pretty awesome, considering 1 races Tarmogoyf and just shits all over Zoo.