[Deck] The Rock

That's because The Rock as a deck is incredibly amorphous. It's practically an archetype unto itself. Anything more controllish than Eva Green and more aggressive than Train Wreck and optionally splashing any of the other colors could potentially be labeled The Rock. It's not even like Threshold where a base 20-30 spells are shared across all the variants -- you could probably come up with two separate lists which are both The Rock and which have zero spells in common* (though I haven't actually tried this).

* okay, maybe besides Tarmogoyf

And yeah, when combo is as powerful as it is in Legacy right now, you're not going to get too far against it when various one mana discard spells are the best disruption you have available. I think you'd have to either splash white for more/better hate or just suck it up.

There had been some talk about a deck with Death Cloud in it,so i drew up this list:

4x Korlash
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Finks


3x Death Cloud
2x Harmonize
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Smallpox
4x Diabolic Edict
3x Thoughtsieze
4x Cabal Therapy
2x SDT

4x Bayou
1x Volrath's SH
1x Urborg
8x Swamp
3x Forest
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Windswept Heath

I haven't put it together yet, but I would like to see what people think.

@jazzykat: Here is my list for Rock and IMOP it is pretty close to optimal, in my meta anyway. These decks will all vary, like Fetchland Tendrils, no one has the same build since it is adapted to each person's meta. And each person has their pet cards, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Wishes and there is not official verdict on Sakura. I highly support the card since it allows me to fetch additional basics, stalls the early game like a pro, shuffles the deck when garbage is revealed with Top, and fucks up Dredge. But, this list is the most solid I have seen and can handle literally anything:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
2x Eternal Witness
1x Spiritmonger

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Putrefy

4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

SB
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Choke
3x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Krosan Grip

The only changes that need to be made are the Putrefys which will be turning into the new Swords card Path to Exile. Other than that the list is basically complete. Combo, I have no chance so I simply choose to maximize my chances of beating literally anything else. Burn is about a 50/50 matchup, just depends on how fast Hierarchs come down so COP Red stops that garbage and Goyf Sligh. The Landstill matchup can be hard but draw out counters with threats then drop Choke and its GG! The only downfall to this deck is it will occassionally lose to super fast aggro draws. Then again, what deck doesn't? Goblins sometimes has their way with the deck but that can be expected. Putrefy is a great utility spell. I used to run 3x Spiritmongers but I sided them out freguently (cause I wasn't playing against Thresh-ish decks) so I just removed them from the list and put in Putrefy so as I really won't lose to that random Tombstalker and have a MD instant answer to Shackles. But since this deck needs help in the pure speed department, when Path to Exile comes out this deck has acces to essentially 8x StP!!! That is to many and the relevancy of StP on your own creatures for the life is relevant in certian matches so a 4/2 split seems right. If you are afraid of Extirpate you could run a 3/3 split but I would not advise it.

@pulp: Thanks for the fair assessment of your deck's strengths and what looks like a strong list as I haven't tested it yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Yeah I'm still twinking the list but I think that the 3x Duress may be overkill

Seems good enough for discard with

4x Seize
4x Therapy

I also added in a few Harmonizes to help with the draw engine. So I'll still need my 23 lands.

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I wonder why therapy over duress since your creature count is so low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

I wonder why therapy over duress since your creature count is so low.

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Volrath's Stronghold helps recover lost creatures.

I like to have at least 2 lifegain slots in my builds whether it's the big dumb elephant, Finks or even a Baloth(old school). I think a little bit of lifegain goes a long way against decks like Burn or Sligh. 4 life is an anti Fireblast against Burn. Against Sligh, it can be 2 spells if they run Seal, Jet, Tarfire.

Has anyone tried COTV in the board? It might help against the combo mu at 0, and could be set against Thresh or Dreadstill at 1.

Nihil made Top 8 in the last MTGSalvation Legacy tourney (lost in the quarterfinals) with a list that doesn't play green, but definitely has a Rock-ish flavor to it. I think it has some interesting (in the positive sense of the word) choices. The list and his explanation of it is here, maybe it can spark interest for a possible new Rock variant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

Has anyone tried COTV in the board? It might help against the combo mu at 0, and could be set against Thresh or Dreadstill at 1.

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Against any combo but Belcher CotV @ 1 is the best play. Honestly, the best form of combo hate is something that swings. Gaddock Teeg just destroys Belcher, they have to waste all of their resources to Burning Wish for an answer then play the answer. Chalice simply slows down the combo and they can win through it. Teeg flat out stops everything and has to be answered before they can do anything. If you don't have Teeg then Ethersworn Canonist is the next best hate card.

Last night I took this list to a top 4 split in a field of about 20 players. The list has not changed except the SB:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
2x Eternal Witness
1x Spiritmonger

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Putrefy

4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

SB
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
2x Choke
2x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Krosan Grip
2x Gaddock Teeg

The SB changes were due to the fact that I wanted more combo hate. They were largely irrelevant and sadly, I think that not having 3 Choke cost me a matchup. The deck was fucking with me all night and there were mulligans a plenty. It was operating well below what it should, but, that being said, the fact that I ended up going 4-1 speaks strongly of how rock solid the list is (pun intended). With the additional testing of Putrefy I am very skeptical about adding in the new Path to Exhile in its place. Killing Jittes and other awful shit all night, it was fucking spectacular, however, there was one time I wished I could have PtE my own creature for a fucking swamp, but aside form that one game, Putrefy would have been better every time. I am at school and have class in a few mins, but here is what I played against; I will edit the post later to talk a little bit about the matchups.

Round 1 - Snow White/Mono-Whitegainlifebullshit.dec
2-0
Runed Halo, Jotun Grunt, Martyr of Sands, Story Circle, Hoofprints of the Stag, Oblivion Ring, and a bunch of other garbage ..... I play Deed, he almost can't win the matchup but it took a long fucking time because I had to Extirpate important cards first like Swords before I dealt with Martyr, so he was a a large amount of life and died quickly to Spiritmonger and Hierarchs. Both games played the same, except in game 2 he landed some Grunts and got Deeded a total of 5 times since he was kind enough to shuffle them back in for me.

Round 2 - 3C Thresh
0-2
Luck decided this matchup, needed more Chokes and non-land cards. Kept a 4 land hand game one, drew 9 more and lost. Then game 2 I mulled to 6 and kept a great hand. I had the game won and off the top he draws, in this order: Sower of Temptation, Counterbalance (Top in play stops StP), Goyf, Shackles, he drew a total of 1 land the entire game and had 4 in play. I had a Top in play (for 5 turns or so) and drew around 11. Can't beat luck.

Round 3 - 3C Tempo Thrash
2-1

Game 1 all I could draw was lands and my 2 Putrefys +2 Swords looking at 2 Nimble Mongoose. I think my deck runs ..... creatures.

Game 2 I mull to 6 and he tried to get cute with Stifles and shit. Deed sweeps his board and he dies shortly after.

Game 3 I mull to 5 and keep a no land hand that had: Vindicate, Swords, Deed, Tribe Elder, and Gaddock Teeg (seeing if it was any good in this matchup and it wasn't). I draw a basic forest and then a Volrath's Stronghold and am able to land a threat. He is color screwed and can't find green mana so we play draw go for a while. I cast STE and he gets Stifled (who would have guessed) but I assumed he had a Stifle so I waited to sack it till he cast a Mongoose so I could block and kill it and get a 2 for 1. Ironically the next turn I drew a basic plains .... bad luck again but am able to land threats. On turn ...... maybe 16, no exageration, it took me well over 12 turns to hit land number 4. Thats fucking BS. But, anyway, my deck has much better threats than his does and when I get access to black mana, I drop my hand and race him. I end the game at 2 life after getting 3 Hierarch's Stifled and swinging with Goyf and Hierarch.

Round 4 - 4C Thresh w/ Confidant
2-0
Very easy matchup, my threats are a lot better than his. Before the match he tells me "lets get this over fast"! Lol, I thought he was joking, but no, it really was that bad. All I had to do was keep Bob off the table and it would be simple after that.

Round 5 - GWb fast Mid-range Aggro
2-1
Another very easy matchup. The highest casting cost in his deck is 2.
Game 1 I mull into Deed and 4 for 1 him and win shortly after with Goyf.

Game 2 I get really unlucky. I keep a really good hand and need to draw a green source (it had Vindicates and StP and stuff). He gets a savage draw and beats me down to very low life. I eventually draw my green source and cast Deed without enough mana to activate it in the same turn. He rips Krosan grip off the top and I lose the next turn. It happens.

Game 3 Deed 6 for 1s him and I E. Plague his Knights (he plays White Knight and Silver) and Cat, Spectral Lynx owns every creature in my deck. No fucking joke, Lynx OWNS this deck, all I can do is StP. Doran puts him on a fast clock and he can't recover.

You ever want more hand disruption (Cabal Therapy) to complement your Seizes? I run a full set of each and I would not change them for anything they're too valuable at what they do. I mean Rock already has a dreadful storm combo matchup but with 4x Seize/4x Therapy and Witnesses you at least have a fighting chance. Especially with Teeg coming in from the board. Also you have no draw engine, how has that been treating you? I think maybe you could manage a couple of Harmonizes in there, the card is so good.

I think we reached the threshold of strong multicolored cards that Glittering Wish really should be played in the deck.

Just off the top of my head....

You have...

Gadook Teeg (against storm combo)
Gerrard's Verdict
Doran
Putrefy (I'm assuming all 4 Vindicates will be maindecked).
Mystic Enforcer
Deed (if you only play 3 MD)
Spiritmonger
Vexing Shusher (answers CB+Top)

and several others.

Alright, my post was updated with a little matchup analysis.

@Roodmistah: I hate hand destruction in this deck. I play Thoughtseize cause its pretty much a cure all card, and has the potential to deal with literally any threat before it comes into play. Basically its just too good. If Thoughtseize didn't exist and all I could play was Duress and Cabal Therapy, I would run more threats and 0 hand destruction spells. Here is why, late game, when you are trying to draw something .... good, you draw hand destruction. This deck is about out resourcing your opponent and dropping bombs. Every card in this deck is a threat. I side out hand destruction against super fast aggro that doesn't have burn (Zoo) and isn't Goblins or Slivers. Basically I side it out in matchups where E Plague is spectacular like Affinity, Elves, and random mid-range aggro. I would side out hand destruction against Goblins, but Vindicate is so terrible against them I side 3 of those out and 1 Thoughtseize (Port and Wasteland totally nullify Vindicate, this matchup is all about tempo). Cabal Therapy .... all my creatures aside from Eternal Witness are fucking fantastic in play, I could care less if they cast their Goyf. Point being, I love Thoughtseize, and it does help a little in the combo matchup, but I think additional hand destruction is pointless if you are playing a more aggro control oriented version like mine. Now, if you are playing a pure aggro build, I can understand that.

I would never include something like Sylvan Library or Harmonize in the deck. Top is MORE than enough. I have 11 shuffle effects for it. And on turn 3/4 I would much rather activate Top during upkeep and drop a threat than draw 3 cards. Plus, playing against something like Eva Green, it is fucking awesome to be able to keep StP/Vindicate/ Putrefy on top to deal with Tombstalker, since that is the only card in their deck that poses a threat. Additional card draw is rather worthless IMOP. If it works for you run it, I think Top is spectacular in the deck and is the only card filter/draw (it does draw a card) engine that the deck needs. And if it gets Pithing Needled ... that isn't like it matters. Much better than a Pithing Needle on Deed. You don't need Top to win, but it doesn't hurt and is rarely a dead card and allows you to keep removal safe from your opponent's discard spells.

i am considering running krosan grip main deck since alot of the time pithing needle is the bane of this deck, and some people decided to run it main deck in our meta.

it also seems to answers survival of the fittest/dreadnought/counterbalance/seismic assault/moat/humility, etc...

i am not sure what to take out for it though...
i am currently using peter's decklist:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21692

edit:
i am also not running exactly that list, i got 4 finks, 2 loxodon hierarchs.
im thinking maybe 1 finks, 1 vindicate for 2 krosan grips main.
i really dont wanna mess w/ the curve too much.

@Pulp_Fiction: Why don't you play Tombstalker or Dark Confidant?

@Moczoc
the thing about Bob is the rocks curve is not all that low even with hierarchs and baloth your gonna be taking atleast 3 points of life or 4 and plus thoughtseize he also wont stay on the board that long with deed anyways. tombstalker is good but spiritmonger is better. i mean sure tombstalker has evasion and delve but when theres other decks running tombstalker spirit monger beats him. spiritmonger is bigger has color evasion when you need it and regenerates AND he pumps with damage AND counterbalance has a tough time with him he's just overall good. and whats the point of running eternal witness when your removing cards in your graveyard with tombstalker. sometimes its just personal opinion but a singleton spiritmonger can be a late gamebreaker. but thats my opinion lets see what pulpfiction has to say about monger and bob.

I hope y'all don't mind if I ask... What's the difference between The Rock and Pro Tour Junk/Jank? I was reading a Pat Chapin article, and he said something like "they're different decks, get it right" but they look pretty much the same to me.

I dont see the reason for not playing Dark Condidant. If he stays,you will win the game for sure. It will most likely get an instant swords/x removal spel on it. Also 2 Tombstalker is way better then spirit monger/loxodon hierarch(why even play this card) can do. With SDT,u can easily handle confi and u only
have 2tombstalkers as cards higer then3,which isnt a big deal. Tombstalker can come down very fast and has evasion. So Dark Confidant>> Loxodon Hierarch and Tombstalker >> Spiritmonger. If you do want to have another big creature Jotun Grunt is also very good.

@sauce. I wouldn't play Krosan Grip mainboard. You have thoughtseize/vindicate to answer annoying stuff like that. And if u feel the need for them,u just side like 3of em in.The rock is so versatile because it has a 'good' matchup versus all random decks. Dont play maindeck hate.

@Moczoc: I really hate Dark Confidant in a deck that isn't Suicide black oriented. He kills you way to fast and is pointless in way to many matchups. Basically anything with red in it he is horrible against and against fast aggro, all he does is assist in killing you. Confidant can't block and live, occassionally kills you, and can't attack if the opponent controls creatures. Late game when drawn Confidant usually is just terrible. Since this deck already has solid matchups against blue based control anyway I really don't see a need for him. Every creature in the deck serves a solid purpose and are immediate threats (except for STE but he serves his role perfectly). Top with 11 shuffle effects is more than enough deck manipulation/card advantage.

Tombstalker would be played as maybe a 2x of and it really isn't worth it. It is not wrong to run Tombstalker by any means but I just prefer Spiritmonger since it is so much harder to kill. Even as a one of, Thresh can't deal with it. Tombstalker is fairly easy to deal with, a 6/6 that regenerates and gets bigger ... not the same. Also, the lack of synergy between Eternal Witness and Tombstalker is not good. Much like char89 said, Spiritmonger is a late game breaker, Swords to Plowshares is basically the only commonly played card that answers it. Sure there are others like Oblivion Ring and Runed Halo and Wing Shards, but those are not commonplace. When you think about it, most decks can handle a single Tombstalker, very few are equipped to deal with Spiritmonger whether it be early, mid, or late game. Sure you can chump block him, but for how long?

@grahf: PT Junk is an aggro deck. Its also referred to as Rockin Funkbrew but, since I actually played PT Junk when it was extended legal I simply refer to it as Junk. Since its still the same deck but with Goyf and Swords in it. They are VERY different decks that take somewhat similar paths to victory. The Rock is a board control deck that drops bomb creatures as the game progresses, usually the Rock builds are more aggro control oriented and play like control decks. Junk is an aggro deck with a toolbox. The deck is built to be able to handle nearly any threat and put the opponent on a short clock. It does not play like a control deck at all, it can assume that role, but it is a mid-range aggro deck.

@rancor: You could not be further from the truth. Anyone who has ever actually cast Loxodon Hierarch in a tournament setting with a Rock build has understood how good it is. The only reason Hierarch isn't commonly played ...... Tarmogoyf. But in a deck that does not give a shit about Tarmogoyf and has tons of answers to it you can safely play Hierarchs. They own the Goblin, Goyf Sligh, and Burn matchups as well as the Thrash matchup. Loxodon Hierarch is an amazingly underutilized creature who really gets to prove how good he is in a deck like Rock. I understand most people's logic is this: Tombstalker is commonly played .... I know its good so I should play it, its better than ____ creatures that would be played in its spot. Please build the deck up and play it, or post a list with card justifications before you make pointless posts like that.

@sauce: Why would you play Krosan Grip when you can run more Deeds, Vindicates, Mortify, or Putrefy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@sauce: Why would you play Krosan Grip when you can run more Deeds, Vindicates, Mortify, or Putrefy?

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uncounterable, less color intensive are my knee jerk answers to that.

the only issues this deck runs into is a rare 3 drop counterbalance which even grip wont help with and pithing needle on deed.