[Deck] Solidarity

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

"Don't play Stroke mainboard. The card is way too mana intensive to be used in many occasions. Also, Tolarian Winds is no good, it gives carddisadvantage, and therefore is probably always bad pre-combo."

Tolarian Winds is the perfect anti-stall. Ditch all those Islands and FOW for some fresh spells, works pre-combo too when you keep a hand you probably shouldn't have or mulliganed too much. Right now, I use it as a Wish target in the SB. Ditch those discarded spells to feed a big FOI, and even Wish 'em back if necessary. Stroke isn't mana intensive when combined with Twincast "pay X2UUU draw 2X cards"!! Add in the ability to change targets and it's almost broken. However, I understand the points you've made. Whatever the case may be making these changes keeps the same mechanics that Solidarity is supposed to have but changes the flavor a little bit. I think it plays nicely as a huge drawing engine (reminds me of the good old days piloting ProsBloom). Try it out and tweak a deck list before you disregard the idea completely. If the deck ever makes a comeback, it certainly won't be the same old thing. The new version were looking for is gonna be significantly different. Look at what adding black did for goblins and belcher....

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I could see playing Tolarian Winds as a sideboard card, but certainly not over the SB Meditate. I don't think I would spend a slot on the card, if I can fill my board with other good sideboard material.

For your Stroke plan, you will first of all need a Stroke and a Twincast to make it work. The stroke alone is a really bad draw engine, since it becomes only profitable after drawing more than like 5 cards (over Meditate I mean). I do not feel this deck needs more draw engine, because it will mean more dead cards pre-combo (which Stroke almost always is). Also, Twincasting a Stroke is dangerous, because you immediately lose if the opponent counters the Stroke in response to Twincast.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I could see playing Tolarian Winds as a sideboard card, but certainly not over the SB Meditate. I don't think I would spend a slot on the card, if I can fill my board with other good sideboard material.

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Agreed. I currently run Tolarian Winds as a SB Wish Target and 4 Meditates, typically all in the MB. Although, sometimes I put the 4th in the SB, I haven't entirely decided which I prefer.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

For your Stroke plan, you will first of all need a Stroke and a Twincast to make it work. The stroke alone is a really bad draw engine, since it becomes only profitable after drawing more than like 5 cards (over Meditate I mean). I do not feel this deck needs more draw engine, because it will mean more dead cards pre-combo (which Stroke almost always is). Also, Twincasting a Stroke is dangerous, because you immediately lose if the opponent counters the Stroke in response to Twincast.

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Both cards are good independently (depending on the situation of course, you wouldn't cast Meditate if you needed another turn). The majority of the posters here agree on Stroke as their kill card. I feel that this alone merits at least 1 slot in the MB. I hate it when I find myself needing the Wish and spending the 2U time after time, game after game when facing lethal damage when there's always the chance that 2U will matter (if going off with only 3 island, for example). Twincast is never a dead card as long as spells are being cast. Why wouldn't you target a Meditate (or a FOI for that matter)? And maybe, once in a while, you can pay X2UUU, draw 2X cards, GG. In this event, Brainfreeze simply makes the kill easier. Don't get me wrong though, I completely understand that you want the deck to be more reliable. What build do you run?

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

Both cards are good independently (depending on the situation of course, you wouldn't cast Meditate if you needed another turn).

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I disagree here. Stroke is hardly good on it's own. It usually does nothing more than draw about 3 cards for 6 mana, which is terrible. It really rarely happens that you're able to find enough mana to draw a serious number of cards, let alone Twincast the card.

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

The majority of the posters here agree on Stroke as their kill card. I feel that this alone merits at least 1 slot in the MB. I hate it when I find myself needing the Wish and spending the 2U time after time, game after game when facing lethal damage when there's always the chance that 2U will matter (if going off with only 3 island, for example).

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True. Luckily, we play Turnabout and Cryptic Command, which can both funcion as a 'kill card' as well. It again rarely happens you absolutely have to make your opponent draw a card, and in those occasions, usually you have plenty of time to set it up.

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

Twincast is never a dead card as long as spells are being cast. Why wouldn't you target a Meditate (or a FOI for that matter)?

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Because Twincasting stuff against counters is dangerous. If you play Meditate and Twincast immediately, and they counter the Meditate, both spells fizzle. If you Meditate and wait, and the opponent doesn't counter, you can't Twincast anymore.

I currently run Van Phanels build, which is in the first post, with a couple of changes. I like to play 5 fetch, and I probably cut one of the 2 Cryptic Commands for the 4th Remand.

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I currently run Van Phanels build, which is in the first post, with a couple of changes. I like to play 5 fetch, and I probably cut one of the 2 Cryptic Commands for the 4th Remand.

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Wow. That's exactly what I'm running atm.

So:
5 Fetch
13 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
1 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Tolarian Winds
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Is this the current optimum build? Why was it decided to forget about Hunting Pack or other splash solutions? I understand running mono blue but haven't tried these other builds. Does anyone have stats on this: mana curve, average # turns, etc.? Do we gain anything from Conflux or Shards? Thanks for all the info, just want to continue to develop the deck?

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

So:
5 Fetch
13 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
1 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Tolarian Winds
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Is this the current optimum build? Why was it decided to forget about Hunting Pack or other splash solutions? I understand running mono blue but haven't tried these other builds. Does anyone have stats on this: mana curve, average # turns, etc.? Do we gain anything from Conflux or Shards? Thanks for all the info, just want to continue to develop the deck?

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I don't know wether it is the optimum build. The mainboard has been the same for literally years barring a few changes. My sideboard is usually something like this:

1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke
2 Brain Freeze
3 Twincast
1 Rebuild
3 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth

I don't feel my meta demands running Hydroblast. In the occasion I might run into Goblins, I'll usually be able to get away with the Echoing Truths. 2 Brain Freeze is personal preference.

Solidarity really has no average turn, since it always wins (or not) when it has to, not when it's able to. Soonest reliable turn is 4, as most will know. Just goldfishing, you're ultimately looking for 4 Island, High Tide, Reset and Meditate (+1/2 other usefull cards). That usually gets you going.

As far as I'm concerned, we don't gain anything from the latest sets at all, besides Cryptic Command.

I might consider trying out 4 Cunning Wish and 3 Tide, but I doubt it will do any good really.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I don't know whether it is the optimum build. The mainboard has been the same for literally years barring a few changes.

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My current build goes back before Cryptic Command and even Remand. I've been away from the game for a while (seems to happen often) and recently decided to revisit Solidarity. I really like the Remand/Brainfreeze tech. When not targeting Brainfreeze, do you find the extra counter helpful?

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Solidarity really has no average turn, since it always wins (or not) when it has to, not when it's able to. Soonest reliable turn is 4, as most will know. Just goldfishing, you're ultimately looking for 4 Island, High Tide, Reset and Meditate (+1/2 other usefull cards). That usually gets you going.

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Understood, however strictly speaking about combo consistency, what's the soonest, average turn your able to goldfish? Do you ever attempt on turn 3 (or maybe even 2), possibly when facing aggro?

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I might consider trying out 4 Cunning Wish and 3 Tide, but I doubt it will do any good really.

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Like the idea but it seems expensive at 2UU.

Why Peek? I run 4 Opt.

My build still looks like this:
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
3 Flash of Insight (sometimes trade 1x for Stroke in SB)
1 Stroke of Genius

2 Brainfreeze
2 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

5 Fetch
13 Island

Sideboard:
2 Brainfreeze
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Stroke of Genius (sometimes traded for 1x FOI in MB)
1 Turnabout

1 Chain of Vapor (Useless when running CC, good Wish target though)
1 Stifle (Belcher, Mirror Match, etc.)
1 Words of wisdom (Cheap kill card, would like to test a few MB)
1 Mana Short (Any deck running the best card ever: Island)
1 Rebuild
1 Evacuation (See Chain of Vapor)
4 Hydroblast (Unlike others, I see alot of Red in my meta)

Yeah, I know, it's a little old school. Definitely needs some tweaking. I've been eying Cryptic Command, Remand and the previously mentioned mainboard Words of Wisdom. I understand the controversy surrounding my card choices but I believe all ideas deserve some play testing. My current build is focused on heavy draw/quick goldfish, especially when throwing in the extra Stroke. However, I like the idea of throwing in Remand and Cryptic Command for a combo/control feel. Reminds me of Fruity Pebbles. Any thoughts? It'd be nice to hear from Deep6er, but it appears he can't log on too often.

I can assure you 3 Flash of Insight is too much. Seeing them in multiples is the worst thing that can happen, and I'm sometimes not even happy seeing just one. The card is very strong though, if you're able to cast it for 1 before comboing.

Remand serves as much as 3 purposes in this deck:
1) Brain Freeze + Remand
2) Delaying the opponent
3) Pulling counters (You cast a spell (High Tide for example), he counters, you Remand the High Tide, drawing a card and thus producing cardadvantage. You can try to go off again next turn)

The main reason for not playing 4 Remand is that it's pretty bad against Thresh, since none of their cards are really worth Remanding.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I can assure you 3 Flash of Insight is too much. Seeing them in multiples is the worst thing that can happen, and I'm sometimes not even happy seeing just one. The card is very strong though, if you're able to cast it for 1 before comboing.

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Yeah, I like the -1 FOI, + 1 Stroke configuration but we already went there.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Remand serves as much as 3 purposes in this deck:
1) Brain Freeze + Remand
2) Delaying the opponent
3) Pulling counters (You cast a spell (High Tide for example), he counters, you Remand the High Tide, drawing a card and thus producing cardadvantage. You can try to go off again next turn)

The main reason for not playing 4 Remand is that it's pretty bad against Thresh, since none of their cards are really worth Remanding.

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I'm looking at how to incorporate Remand at this point. I still see a different focus though. There may be an ideal 'controlidarity' build and a 'speedidarity' build.

I have to say that I liked Remand quite a bit lately against Thresh, allthough there really aren't that many good targets. Maybe I was just lucky, but remanding a Counterbalance gave me more than once the turn I needed to go off (or the turn to draw Force for it...). Also, Thresh feels like an incredibly close MU and if you have to go off fast and through a counter or two its a godsend if you only have to reach half of the stormcount. I used to board in Twincasts here, but they seem to perform underwhelming against the balanced lists.

Regarding my build, I run Van Phanels list with -1 cryptic command +1 Twincast main, with a slightly different sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Jade

Regarding my build, I run Van Phanels list with -1 cryptic command +1 Twincast main, with a slightly different sideboard.

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And only 3 Remand? How does everyone feel about Words of Wisdom? No card advantage but it's like a super cantrip and is a MB kill card. See, I feel it's necessary to MB a condition if we are to wait for lethal damage. Do you usually respond before moving into the Combat phase, Declare Attackers or as early as the Draw step to deny them a Main phase all together?

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

And only 3 Remand? How does everyone feel about Words of Wisdom? No card advantage but it's like a super cantrip and is a MB kill card. See, I feel it's necessary to MB a condition if we are to wait for lethal damage. Do you usually respond before moving into the Combat phase, Declare Attackers or as early as the Draw step to deny them a Main phase all together?

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We already have a mainboard kill card, Turnabout. You'll be using it much more than the Stroke.

There's no point in denying them a main phase, since it can only lead to them giving you more storm. I generally either wait for a dangerous card to go off, or already start in the upkeep. You can't play Reset in the upkeep though, but you can float mana into the draw phase. The point of going off in the upkeep, and continuing in the draw phase is that the opponent won't get to draw his card untill you're already far into the combo, or even finished it. If you manage to Freeze his deck away in the upkeep, he obviously has to draw a card afterwards.

Words of Wisdom has been discussed and dismissed plenty of times. I'd advise you to look through the old Solidairty threat (although it's loooong).

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

We already have a mainboard kill card, Turnabout. You'll be using it much more than the Stroke.

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True.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

The point of going off in the upkeep, and continuing in the draw phase is that the opponent won't get to draw his card untill you're already far into the combo, or even finished it. If you manage to Freeze his deck away in the upkeep, he obviously has to draw a card afterwards.

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I like that idea, I used to get by with just Turnabout (waaaayyy back in the day). Might as well try it.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Words of Wisdom has been discussed and dismissed plenty of times. I'd advise you to look through the old Solidairty threat (although it's loooong).

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Yeah, I'm looking at it now actually. I followed it up until last year. Haven't found much on Words though. I'll be attending a local tournament on Friday so hopefully I can post an optimum list before than. Of course I'll post results here as well. Looking forward to seeing results from GP Chicago, don't have the money to go myself. Anyone planning on piloting Solidarity there?

Good night, it's 4am on the US's east coast.

Well, WoWisdom was discussed mainly as a wishable kill card and as said, most of the time you'll kill with turnabout or if you have some mana and a wish left with stroke. If you won't use it as a kill card its a bad card-drawer, why play this if you could have Peer Trough Depths instead? And even Peer Through Depths doesn't make into most lists.

Yes, only 3 Remand at the moment, but I wouldn't be unhappy about a 4th. The twincast is just personal preference, it did some crazy things for me and I hope it will keep doing this. I can understand anybody who cut it, though. Its either the nuts or pure fresh shit. It just tends to be the nuts if I draw it :tongue:

I try to go off EOT most of the time, with the hope that they tap out and add to the stormcount. Also its much more comfortable to go off the turn before you have to turnabout his creatures. Bahamuth you got a valid point there and I probably should go off in the upkeep more often (at least against the better players who know that they don't have to play anything if it isn't speeding up their clock). I guess it depends on their deck and how high the chances are that they'll draw a relevant card. Against thresh for example, wouldn't you wait to see if they tap for ponder?

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Originally Posted by Jade

Against thresh for example, wouldn't you wait to see if they tap for ponder?

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Depends. If you're on lethal, always try as much as possible in the upkeep. No smart opponent will play something, and especially not a Ponder, if they can just kil you. If you're not on lethal, I'd probably wait in most occasions.

Other than FoW on Tendrils of Agony, do we have a chance against ANT? And what if they play Pact of Negation? How do we force them into another turn? I understand that we have instant speed and complete stack control, but they have a 1 or 2 turn clock.

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

Other than FoW on Tendrils of Agony, do we have a chance against ANT? And what if they play Pact of Negation? How do we force them into another turn? I understand that we have instant speed and complete stack control, but they have a 1 or 2 turn clock.

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Storm still triggers if you counter the card with storm. You should try to buy as much time as you can with your remands and try to counter Ad Nauseam if possible.

Post side Twincasting Ad Nauseam and is usually the easiest way to race them since you can just win in response to them.

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Originally Posted by J.V.

Storm still triggers if you counter the card with storm. You should try to buy as much time as you can with your remands and try to counter Ad Nauseam if possible.

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No sh!t!! Don't know how I forgot about that. Do we respond to one of their draw spells with a lethal Brainfreeze? If only they were stupid enough. I guess the only thing on our side is that they run mostly sorceries.

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Originally Posted by J.V.

Post side Twincasting Ad Nauseam and is usually the easiest way to race them since you can just win in response to them.

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Does Ad Nauseam really help us out that much? I heard Gearhart was planning a Solidarity build with Black splash. Never played this match before but it almost seems like an auto-loss to me. I see a banning in the near future. I can't believe Frantic Search is illegal while WOTC continues to print crazy brokeness.

ANT is about 50-50. Twincast on both Chant and Duress is huge.

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

Does Ad Nauseam really help us out that much? I heard Gearhart was planning a Solidarity build with Black splash. Never played this match before but it almost seems like an auto-loss to me. I see a banning in the near future. I can't believe Frantic Search is illegal while WOTC continues to print crazy brokeness.

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How is Ad Nauseam "crazy broken" if it's not even in DtB status ?