So I did a little bit of research in trying to find other creatures for the deck.
How about a Serendib Efreet? Too slow?
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So I did a little bit of research in trying to find other creatures for the deck.
How about a Serendib Efreet? Too slow?
Well, it's only 3 power for 3 mana with a relevant drawback. The large backside is nice, but I think it's generally accepted that Vendillion Clique is just more useful.
Then thats that. Lorescale is too slow, Predator might be an option... but I have looked and can't find anything other than Vendillion Clique for a creature with evasion that's 3 CMC or cheaper and at least 2 power.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Which makes mongoose seem all the much better for keeping 4-of.
Is there room for echoing truth in this deck? Either main or side?
I played Goblins agains't UGR tempo thresh today and, though I've won, Mogoose was what stalled the game for ages. I couldn't Fanatic it, Gempalm it, neither Stingscourer it. Damn creature sure is worth it's 4 slots.
I'm currently playtesting this list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/ice
4 Force of Will
2 Force Spike (yes, indeed)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
4 Submerge
3 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
As you can see I dropped the bounce's. I already played only 1 Rushing River and 1 Vendillion Clique (instead of the Wipe Away). However in like 80% of the case's Rushing River was a dead card to me. Although Vendillion Clique was good against certain Matchup's (ANT, Landstill etc.) it just doesn't fit in the strategy as much as a tempo-gainer aka disrupt/force spike.
Force Spike is much better than Disrupt since Force spike can counter many more targets (For Example):
Sensei's Divining Top (probably the most horrible card to be on the opponent's side)
Lackey
Vial
Creatures: Goyf's, Confidant's, Tombstalker's etc.
Counterbalance
Explosives
Deed
Jitte
Standstill
Stifle (after Dreadnought for example)
Moat (some people play them in their Landstill decks, atleast they do it here)
Abyss (some people play them in their Landstill decks, atleast they do it here)
You all probably know more target's then I just mentioned. And the best part it also hits Cantrip's, Chant's and Duress etc.
Force Spike is overall a much better card to play in the slots you gained by removing the bounce('s) and/or Clique.
Force Spike helps a lot against the bad matchup's. Overall Daze's are very powerfull against Landstill decks, which is a tough matchup to beat, no matter what list. It also helps against Counter-top decks, which are also hard to beat, even with the submerge's etc on sideboard.
It just seems unneccesary to put your whole trust on 1 or 2 outs in your deck if something big lands on the other side of the table. You should actively counter every cantrip, hit every land they have, dropping your mongoose and march to the finish line. Force Spike helps a lot when playing this strategy, Rushing River does not.
When playing postboard, I simply sideboard Rushing River 9 out of the 10 times out since my sideboard cards are much better than the singleton Rushing River and/or Wipe Away, althought you could mention some matchup where u want to sideboard out other cards, however they are less frequent then sideboarding RR/WA out.
There is ofcourse lots of things to say but I proceed with another (weird) thing in my decklist, the manabase.
Simply playing 4 Wooded Foothills, 2 Polluted Delta's and 2 Flooded Strand is weird but doesn't matter a thing on the outside. However playing a Turn 1 Wooded Foothills and passing the turn will confuse your opponent when fetching to Tropical Island into Stifle, Spell Snare, Daze.
Pithing Needle isn't much of an argument but i'll just put it in there. But to not let know that you play a TT/blue deck list is vital for playing the bluff/tempo role. You'll find it better than 4 delta and 4 strand if you test it against random decks against random opponents (however that might be a hard one :D).
The sideboard is pretty tight, your simply want to put 20 cards in it to make all matchup's favourable. However this is just not the case.
4 Submerge are needed, don't play 3 cause it seems nicer. Submerge's are probably boarded in 50-60% of the time, since 70% of the metagame will play creatures (Goblins and Merfolk makes up probably 10% ^^).
4 Hydroblast are probably the best cards after Submerge. Landstill, ANT and Merfolk and maybe Threshold (if you want to board them in) are played frequently.
Then you'll simply need to make a sideboard that helps you to win against simply not winnable matchups. Ichorid is an example of that, however I dont want to put 4 cards (crypt) in my sideboard and still have a big chance of losing the matchup.
Pithing Needle's are pretty good since they have kick-ass target's:
Vial (probably the best)
Survival
Factory
Elspeth
Top (however i do not know if you want to board it in against Counterbalance-top, maybe you do want it)
Jitte (however you'll probably win against the decks they play it)
EE's
Deed's
Rishidan Port
Wasteland
However for some reason the compete with Pyroclasm, to me. Playing more Pyroclasm than 2 helps you against all tribal decks. Tribal decks are pretty hard to beat, especially if they go the nuts. 1 Pyroclasm will win those matchup´s. Playing more of them means a better chance of having one, which means a better chance to win the matchup. However since Pithing Needle has targets that hits Vial (Goblins and Merfolk) and other frequently played cards, Pithing Needle is probably the way to go.
I'll have to test a lot more postboard games against Merfolk and Goblins to be absolutely sure.
Krosan Grip's are pretty sweet to, so you probably want to play two if you play 0 bounce spells mainboard.
I hope it's readable :D. I'm simply to lazy to read it all over. Hopefully some people will respond on my conclusions or in other words putting an update of my Tempo Threshold list on thesource, to create a better deck with the help of all of you.
Two force spikes? Isn't there too much risk to draw late game that and makes it quite death in most cases? I think 4x dazes are maxinum number just with that reason. How have that force spike been working for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
Hydroblast? I think you mean pyroblast :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
Force Spike has been amazing at times. This deck rarely really needs topdecks in the late game, because it never really gets there, or loses there anyway. I haven't seen a situation so far where Force Spike was dead, and I never really wished it was something else. I'd love to include a 3th, but there's really nothing to cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
I also think that Force Spike sucks. It's a Daze for which you have to keep mana open. That's enough said I guess (because the deck already wants to keep enough mana open anyway, Force Spike would be redundant to that).
Bouncespells on the other side are pretty good solutions to fix boardpotitions which you can't handle otherwise (i.e. when 2 Goyfs are stalled by 2 Goyfs. R.River shines here).
Wipe Away on a Dreadnought is also nice and Wipe Away on a Humility can steal the win as the guy with Humility will probably let you resolve multiple creatures etc.
Just insert anything Cenarius has listed above and notice that Force Spike can only counter them if your mana-denial strategy was successfull and if you have mana open.
There is just no reason why not to play Bounce Spells. Because otherwise it will be like "Oh fuck, XYZ has resolved, now I lose"
I choose not to play bounce, because I absolutely hate drawing it. It's very very often dead, especially the 3CC bounce. I really don't care if my deck loses game 1 to a random Humility or whatever. I have SB 2-3 Grip for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Also, comparing Force Spike to Daze is by no means relevant here, other than that we can simply conclude that Daze is better, since we already run 4 Daze.
How is Force Spike redundant, because you have to keep mana open? It happens alot that you're able to counter a spell with both a Force Spike and a Daze.
This seems like poor justification for not running bounce. What if that bounce spell could have won you game one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Yup. I think i have more games WITH bounce when i have draw one, compared when i haven't. It's just sweet to bounce blockker/s EOT and swing to win. Not to mention to get an option to bounce dreadnought or tombstalker etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I'm also curious what do you to resolved dreadnaught or Countryside Crusher what grows example 15/15?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
It's not a poor justification. If I often find myself hating drawing the card, that means the card is not usefull by any means in that situation. Therefore, it's better to be replaced by something that is useful in many stages of the game.
I'm curious what you do to an Ichorid player too. Or to a 43.land player. My plan against Dreadnought and Crusher is to counter them, and perhaps to Bolt the Crusher. Nothing else. Don't tell me I can't always have a counter for those cards, I know. I just don't want to run a card I don't want to draw in my mainboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
Ichorid, nothing. That would take too much sideboard space so not worth it. 43.land comes against rarery so won't take stress about winning that. Oh well, maybe i just keep playing those bounces over something else "useful" and get playing around opponent dazes / force spikes..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
I am not convinced of Force Spike in the main instead of bounce. My current list still contains a single Rushing River while the other slot is currently occupied by a Trygon Predator.
For reference, my SB currently looks like this:
3 Submerge
2 Disrupt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
I'm so curious why all people hate changes in a deck, especially when noone tested it (maybe except you Adan).
You're mentioning when Rushing River is insane. Bouncing a Humility, Bouncing 2 oppossing Goyfs, and Wipe Away a Dreadnought. Well it's probably for certain that landstill decks having 5 mana is about to win the game anyway, playing against 2 Tarmogoyf's is probably a mistake by yourself since you have dozens of answers to come up with. Wipe Away a Dreadnought comes up like 5%% of the time?
I think you'll need to test things first before drawing conclusions about a card. Keeping one mana open is no big deal, you can simply choose what do do. Force Spike a turn 2 Counterbalance and Spell Snare-ing his Tarmogoyf are some examples for that matter or opponent Fetches stifle and then he's for sure doing nothing.
Having Daze #5 and #6 is awesome to have. People can't play arround two daze's and if they do, you probably got enough time to take him to lethal. Hoping for your bounce spells is already waiting to lose the game. I think Bahamuth already answered the question what to do against a Dreadnought/Countryside Crusher. Dreadstill is probably the hardest matchup arround since it has arround 30 cards that are good against you and maybe even more. Force Spike shines in this matchup since putting pressure on his manabase will make Daze + Force Spike so much better.
I think all of you need to test it first to draw any conclusions. Am I right?
Force Spike is a great tempo card, however the 3rd is a hard choice. I think the cards that are in doubt (by many players probably) are:
4th Ponder, hate him to see at turn 1/openingshand. Maybe three helps to let me see one on turn 2/3 when I'm able to play a sorcery. However I'm just an human and did not test any TT list with just 7 cantrips, so I might be on the wrong track by removing a ponder.
4th Fire/ice, however with 0 bounce and no clique its probably bad to remove such a card.
2nd Force Spike (ye you read it correctly)
18th Land, probably a Fetch when playing 8. Since you only have CC 2: 8x and CC1 and CC0 the rest.
I'm not sure if any of the cards that are mentioned are worse than a third Force Spike.
For certain your sideboard looks pretty weird Blitzbold.
Why do you want to play 3 Submerge and why do you want to play 2 Tormod's Crypt? Why did you remove 2 pyroblast and why did you replace it with Disrupt? Why do you play Red Elemental Blast?
The SB is the one I used for 2 back-to-back wins at our local tournament. Even small success > weird looks I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
I did not start with Caplan's board and changed things at random as it seems you want to imply, but I worked on the SB as it stands by now by taking into account the specifis of our local meta. However, I think that it is in fact a board one could use at larger events, too.
REB's were more or less an addition I made the evening before and I simply did not think about Pyroblasts in that slot. On the other hand I never had problems reaching threshold even though Blasts would mean a marginal improvement for this purpose.
Even though you made succes with the board you have, a more consistent board even helps more. Disrupt are less important than pyroblast #3 and #4, since it helps in more matchups than Disrupt.
As soon as you have to play against decks which try to Hymn or Sinkhole you turn 2 with quite some consistency you will learn about the value of additional 1cc counters beside Daze and Snare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
Uuh lol, how about contradicting yourself :eek: .
"As soon as you have to play against decks which try to Hymn or Sinkhole you turn 2 with quite some consistency you will learn about the value of additional 1cc counters beside Daze and Snare."
My list plays 2 Force Spike Mainboard. I know the value of a 1-cc counter. Force Spike shines as a 1-cc counter and don't tell me that someone always have ritual hymn because thats like one in a hundred.
First you say: nah force spike is bad, and now you're saying you will learn about the value of additional 1cc counters beside Daze and Snare. Damn that's pretty weird. It's even on the same page.
Oke, but seriously the benefit you'll get from hydroblast is far more superior to the fact that disrupt helps versus Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole since the matchups against these decks already are great or atleast 50%. On the other hand matchups like Merfolk, Dreadstill, Threshold and Landstill -horrible matchup's or less than 50% or close to 50% - are helped effectively by hydroblasts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
Harsh answer: Learn to read. Neither did I talk about "always Ritual + Hymn" nor did I disqualified the usefulnes of Force Spike from the beginning. I rather talked about quite some consistency to either face either Hymn or Sinkhole on turn 2, which is quite probable from a statistical point of view assuming that 4 of each are played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzbold
My answer: I said that I am not convicend of Force Spike because I did not have the chance to test them. I can foresee them being situationally good or even great, but I also predict them to suck from time to time. I am not convinced of them because the maindecked bounce never sucked for me whenever I drew them - there always was some helpful application.
Hydroblasts or Pyroblast? ;) - But enough of the nitpickiness, ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
However, you are right in pointing out that Pyroblast is helpful in quite some instances where Disrupt won't help at all. But the same can be said for the Blasts. My board might look wierd at the first glance, but you'll notice that nearly all of the cards in fact do have similar purposes. Disrupt, while obviously narrow, has similar applications as the blasts, but shines in others matchups next to the blues ones as well.
Do you really experience problems against merfolk? This question is not meant to blame you, but for real interest, since in my experience this is one of the MUs you'd rather look forward to play against with red Thresh.
I did not have the chance to play against Dreadstill yet, since it seems to have vanished over here. It doesn't look very promising, though.
Thresh on Thresh matches are always very dependent on the lists used, e.g. Counterbalance / Tempo, splash-color and so on. Skill and experience of the players are also very important here. A good sideboard obv. helps here, but I can't see any advantages of boarding 4 blasts vs. 2 blasts + 2 disrupt. In fact I won a counterwar by disrupting a FoW 3 weeks ago. Good times. :-)