[Archetype] CounterTop

I played in the Binghamton event going 6-2 in the swiss losing to Anwar playing Eva Green and to Geoffrey Smelski running UWB Landstill. I was very happy with the deck and most of my losses were from subtle mistakes and boarding incorrectly. I didn’t spend enough time looking at the sideboards of a many decks which lead to me boarding incorrectly a couple rounds. I lost to Matt Abold in the T16 finishing in 15th but I punted G2 after winning G1 which was frustrating.

On Sunday there was a Legacy event for a Lotus in PA where I split in the finals against Matt Elias with UR Painter Control running the same list expect I cut 1MD Firespout for a 3rd Veldalken Shackles since its easily one of the best cards in the deck. Here’s what I ran at Binghamton

3 Island
3 Snow-covered Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Spellsnare
4 Counterbalance
2 Firespout
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Force of Will

SB
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Changes for PA Lotus event
MD: -1 Firespout +1 Shackles
SB: -1 Relic of Progenitus +1 Firespout.

The Firespout in the board likely should have been Pyroclasm since the 2 vs. 3cc is a big difference against Goblins Port/Wasteland mana denial and having X 3cc spells doesn’t matter as much post-board against the decks you’re bringing it in.

I think Probasco counter-top is by far the best Counterbalance strategy since someone like myself who plays minimal Legacy can do well with it and I’d say I was only playing the deck at around 80% of its full potential.

I've been playing a deck with countertop, that does very well. My Friend Gus turned me to it, and I play it every once in a while, and I usually get 1st, if not then top 4-8.

1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Daze
1 Misdirection

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain of Plasma
1 Lightning Storm

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll

SB
3 E. Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
3 Stifle
3 BEG
3 Krosan Grip

Pretty Simple. Im not sure if this is an older deck, but It goes 2 ways either combo off, or just play threshold!

Hi everyone, i wonder whats the fact that so many people prefer the ugw lists more than the ugb/w lists, dark confidant is so good with the divining top engine and speeds the deck up a lot more than ponder i think. I am actually running this list but i got some spots id like to discuss with some other players playing the deck.

Heres mine:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Morphling
2 Trygon Predator

4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Swords to plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
2 Vindicate
3 Senseis divining top
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta

Sideboard:

4 Planar Void
4 Duress
4 Hydroblast
1 Swords to plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vindicate

I really like the deck playing a bit more controllish cause in most games i tried to went aggro the countertop solution wasnt enough to lock down the most decks. The Morphling is an ultimate silverbullet on control matchup as i faced a lot of decks like the rock, landstill, eva green the shrouded boy was the perfekt choice for a lategame drop and i am obviosly nut feeling well trusting in 4 tarmogoyf for the win.
Also Tombstalkers would set my choice around from 3-4 which would be to many slots.

The rest of the Deck is what i feel to play, i am not sure how to split the daze/spell snares both are pretty necessary in the deck but i think daze is a bit more needed as u want to drop importand cards on turn 1-3 where daze is the right backup as u wont have mana open to cast counterspells or something else.

Whats the way u guys sideboard around this deck? I choosed a full Playset of Planar voids over crypt,progenitus,leyline cause u definitly drop in the first turn ur on the play and even against dredge this is fast enough to stop it and the crypt/progenitus will catch more hate. Also the Void locks down every type of deck which diggs from the graveyard permanently which is the better choice in my opinion than the 1x effects from the artifact solutions.

Overall i was not sure which silver bullet set would be the best on a legacy meta where everything could be played so i decided to cut trinket mages and explosives which could hit myself on a 2 drop into the vindicates + trygon predator while the predator gives a permanently disenchant effect its good enough at all to be the choice over the qasali which has to be sacced.

Vindicate also is a very strong bullet cause it wins most of the control matchups targeting planeswalker, manlands, humilities, creatures i mean u remove everything u dont wanna see ;D

I d like to get some feedback about the draw solution on my list id like to play 2 ponders but i dont feel like cutting confidants :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire

Hi everyone, i wonder whats the fact that so many people prefer the ugw lists more than the ugb/w lists, dark confidant is so good with the divining top engine and speeds the deck up a lot more than ponder i think. I am actually running this list but i got some spots id like to discuss with some other players playing the deck.

Heres mine:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Morphling
2 Trygon Predator

4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Swords to plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
2 Vindicate
3 Senseis divining top
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta

Sideboard:

4 Planar Void
4 Duress
4 Hydroblast
1 Swords to plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vindicate

I really like the deck playing a bit more controllish cause in most games i tried to went aggro the countertop solution wasnt enough to lock down the most decks. The Morphling is an ultimate silverbullet on control matchup as i faced a lot of decks like the rock, landstill, eva green the shrouded boy was the perfekt choice for a lategame drop and i am obviosly nut feeling well trusting in 4 tarmogoyf for the win.
Also Tombstalkers would set my choice around from 3-4 which would be to many slots.

The rest of the Deck is what i feel to play, i am not sure how to split the daze/spell snares both are pretty necessary in the deck but i think daze is a bit more needed as u want to drop importand cards on turn 1-3 where daze is the right backup as u wont have mana open to cast counterspells or something else.

Whats the way u guys sideboard around this deck? I choosed a full Playset of Planar voids over crypt,progenitus,leyline cause u definitly drop in the first turn ur on the play and even against dredge this is fast enough to stop it and the crypt/progenitus will catch more hate. Also the Void locks down every type of deck which diggs from the graveyard permanently which is the better choice in my opinion than the 1x effects from the artifact solutions.

Overall i was not sure which silver bullet set would be the best on a legacy meta where everything could be played so i decided to cut trinket mages and explosives which could hit myself on a 2 drop into the vindicates + trygon predator while the predator gives a permanently disenchant effect its good enough at all to be the choice over the qasali which has to be sacced.

Vindicate also is a very strong bullet cause it wins most of the control matchups targeting planeswalker, manlands, humilities, creatures i mean u remove everything u dont wanna see ;D

I d like to get some feedback about the draw solution on my list id like to play 2 ponders but i dont feel like cutting confidants :/

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One thing that needs to be pointed out is that if you want to play aggro, you don't play countertop. You play lists the run more counters and burn/removal without countertop, because countertop is a control card.

Now on the actual deck list, personally I prefer 4 colors too and I love confidant, playing it myself. 2 things that I would like to comment on is trygon predator I feel is a better place for pridemage, and since you are playing the colors, it wont change much. I prefer pridemage because 1, it's instant cast practically and usually, if you have more than 1 artifact or enchantment beating you, predator isn't going to have time to stop it anywaze. And the bonus is that it does not get stopped by blasts from every non blue deck sideboard and main board against painter.(and it costs 1 less to play)

The second thing is the main reason many people don't use vindicate even thou it hits sooo many things in the format, it still costs 3, and most of the time in this deck you want to keep just enough mana for countertop and thats its, that why you play daze and force of will, if your 3 mana for vindicate, then either A, you arn't playing any creatures to win the game which is giving your opponent time to get around the vindicate, or you don't have enough mana to swords or use top to counter things they are playing. This is the main reason why I do not play with vindicate. I personally feel that vindicate is better for decks like landstill because they have the mana available to keep it in hand.
(also its a sorcery)

You think you're getting to 5 mana against Eva Green and casting Morphling?

Or that you're going to cast Morphling against Landstill and it's not only not going to get countered, it's not going to get Wrathed, Moated, Humilitied, or chumped forever with Elspeth tokens?

You think that Morphling is going to stick around against Pernicious Deed?


Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ansset

You think you're getting to 5 mana against Eva Green and casting Morphling?

Or that you're going to cast Morphling against Landstill and it's not only not going to get countered, it's not going to get Wrathed, Moated, Humilitied, or chumped forever with Elspeth tokens?

You think that Morphling is going to stick around against Pernicious Deed?


Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

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I already did in many times, and the chance to get a morphling into play against landstill is as same easy as playing a tombstalker, also morphling normally doesnt catch a pernicious deed also i never played against a moat or elspeth which could stop the morphling ;D

Reaching the 5 mana or at least 6 u need to cast it is just impossible against team america if they use the full ld taktic or a crucible/wasteland lock but both will let the moprhling just pitchable for a force of will and like i said its not about how safe u can play the morphling, its about how save it is if u get it into play, all other spells i could usw for this slot also catch hate and tarmogoyf alone doesnt win. I know its hard to believe but i went 4-1-2 last tournament and won 3 of the 4 games with the morphling 2 times against landstill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire

I already did in many times, and the chance to get a morphling into play against landstill is as same easy as playing a tombstalker, also morphling normally doesnt catch a pernicious deed also i never played against a moat or elspeth which could stop the morphling ;D

Reaching the 5 mana or at least 6 u need to cast it is just impossible against team america if they use the full ld taktic or a crucible/wasteland lock but both will let the moprhling just pitchable for a force of will and like i said its not about how safe u can play the morphling, its about how save it is if u get it into play, all other spells i could usw for this slot also catch hate and tarmogoyf alone doesnt win. I know its hard to believe but i went 4-1-2 last tournament and won 3 of the 4 games with the morphling 2 times against landstill.

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First I will say ansset is being an ass and has put no thought into his post and personally he should get a warning for it.

Second, My thoughts on morphling are as follows, he costs too much for my blood, I'm not a fan of going over 3 mana for anything and if I do, it is only with 1-2 cards and they must be game changers. And I don't feel that morphling is good enough for that since you have to pour mana into it to make it better than goyf. But with that said I have died to that random morphling hitting because no matter what ansset says, theres not a single goblin/threshold/red aggro/stompy/combo deck that runs hate that can easily stop this card, only about 5% of the format can stop it. I don't like it in the deck but I have seen it work, soo if you like it, keep it.(this is the reason why I didn't comment on it before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blueneverfails

First I will say ansset is being an ass and has put no thought into his post and personally he should get a warning for it.

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You know, back-seat modding can probably get you warned yourself.

RE: Morphling. For five mana, I'm fairly certain that there are larger, cheaper creatures you could play, i.e. Enforcer, Tombstalker, et al. While I understand that the ability to make him untargetable is a draw, I don't know if it will come up enough. The targeted removal spells that are around and can hit him (such as Path to Exile or Swords) certainly are played a lot, but as Progenitus has been around, there are an increasing amount of nontargeted removal spells as well (Edicts, etc.). Landstill is obviously an issue, as it continues to make t8 appearances across the magic-playing world, and any of the above named spells -- Humility, Wrath, Deed -- can show up in that deck and play havoc with Morphling.

I know that there are other abilities on it that make it worthwhile, but it's pump abilities still don't give it the capacity to block and kill a decently sized tarmogoyf. Nor do they give it clairvoyance enough to conjure up the stolen data tapes.

Flying potential is nice, but cute, as you can just play Enforcer anyway.


As far as the rest of the deck goes, I'm not sold on Vindicate. Having played CB decks pretty much since their inception, I've found that the more colors on a spell outside of U/G, the less likely that you are to actually cast it in clutch times. Vindicate uses two splash-color mana, which is more difficult that it sounds to get a hold of. And your Scrubland should probably be a Tundra as you're playing Daze and Shackles.

Lastly, I feel like you're playing too many counters. Both Daze and Spell Snare fill a similar slot in my mind, and I usually set them up in a 3/2 split, leaning one way or the other, usually in favor of Daze. I suppose the changes that I would make are:

-1 Scrubland, -2 Vindicate, -1 Daze, -1 Spell Snare, -1 Morphling (maybe, up to you)

+1 Tundra, +1 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Sensei's Divining Top, and 3 open slots, which could be things like Lorescale Coatl if you want more beaters, Ponder if you want, Engineered Explosives if you miss Vindicate, or Sower of Temptation, as this format seems to be totally dependent on either killing or stealing Tarmogoyfs.

Maybe i forgot to say it but my Meta seemed to be a lot more controllish with some countertop,landstill,rock or g/w/b loam decks so at least for landstill i need a good counterbackup or i wont be able to cast any spell. I always loved duress in the mainboard as it is very strong if your able to cast it first turn before threats appear and clears the way to drop the counterbalance. I also would like to play Counterspells but at all i have no more slots fore removal either if explosives, vindicates, others.

What do u guys think about Psychatog? i think it has much more potential than the coatl as both creatures will get a fact on the later gameparts psychatog can grow as fast as you want and a lot of times u can grow it big enough to finish in one turn, as coatl needs the draw which isnt that much as i thought while i tested it cause u never want to draw the cards with the divining top ability, ponder and brainstorm a lot of times have been played before coatl entered play. Also Tog is nearly protectable against burn without counterbackup.

Also Quirion dryad seems to be so sweet to this deck or am i wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire

What do u guys think about Psychatog?

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Psychatog and tarmogoyf in same deck. Not going to work well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire

Also Quirion dryad seems to be so sweet to this deck or am i wrong?

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That needs counter/top to protect itself, so you just want to play tarmogoyf what is right on bigger and won't need usually spells to grow bigger (you won't play that tarmo in early game if you don't have to). Yes, same removal hits tarmogoyf that hits to dryad except burns usually. But still tarmo is better choice..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atog

That needs counter/top to protect itself, so you just want to play tarmogoyf what is right on bigger and won't need usually spells to grow bigger (you won't play that tarmo in early game if you don't have to). Yes, same removal hits tarmogoyf that hits to dryad except burns usually. But still tarmo is better choice..

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Tarmogoyf will allow you to fight swarm decks, while the dryad is going to get run over.

Howdy guys,

First real post for me! Hooray!

Anyway, for those of you guys who play Hierarch, have you tried Cold-Eyed Selkie? I think that it goes under "the danger of cool things," but I've played a 2/2 split between him and Coatl to a ridiculous effect.

Turn 1, Hierarch.
Turn 2, Selkie.
Turn 3, Hierarch, Q.Pridemage, Swing-draw 4.
Step 3: Profit?

He's either crap or amazing, rarely anything in between, but it's a rare occasion where Coatl doesn't have the same drawback. Basically, if I have 1 or more exalted guys on the table, I'd almost always rather play selkie than coatl. They both have a weak body when they come into play, but Selkie can draw a crapload of cards before Coatl is up to par with Goyf. Selkie can dig you into answers/counters/removal... also he can grow the crap out of a Coatl if you've got one.

So... pros/cons vs. Coatl

Pro:
-DRAWS A CRAPLOAD OF CARDS!!!
-Islandwalk
-Drawing. Cards. A crapload.

Con:
-Won't be huge
-Needs exalted creatures (which requires playing Noble Hierarch, but some people play him/her? already.)
-Not as cool against non-blue decks

So far, I've had decent results with him. I think he may end up being SB material (he's a total beating against landstill). Or I may just be crazy and should be playing actual good creatures in his place.

What do you guys think?

Cheers,
Co

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Co cccc

What do you guys think?


Co

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I think Mogg Fanatics would love those Selkie, but that's me.

Selkie is too small.

So a short backflash for the UGBw list, is the Maindeck which Nassif played actually the best list? heres something i threw up last night but didnt test. it yet:

(dont think about the morphling)

4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator
1 Morphling
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Swords to plowshares
2 engeenered explosives
4 counterbalance
4 senseis divining top
2 ponder
3 daze
2 spell snare
4 force of will
4 brainstorm

20 Lands


I think i can put Krosan grip and Vindicate in at least into the sideboard, trygon predator+explosives works nice as i have an instand removal or a permanent threat.

How u guys go to play against control matchups like landstill? Duress in the Sidboard? more Spell snares or Pithing Needles?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire

How u guys go to play against control matchups like landstill? Duress in the Sidboard? more Spell snares or Pithing Needles?

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Depending build, REBs are good against control, also Grips could be usefull, depending what you are playing against. Needles work against many targets (deed, m.factory, elspeth maybe even jace, EE etc). Resolved counter/top makes life much easier :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atog

Depending build, REBs are good against control, also Grips could be usefull, depending what you are playing against. Needles work against many targets (deed, m.factory, elspeth maybe even jace, EE etc). Resolved counter/top makes life much easier :)

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Yeah i already figured out that cb works good against Landstill, what do u guys prefer more, boarding additional duress or counter? Duress good against nearly every threat on landstill and playing a first turn duress can also draw counters to drop the second turn counterbalance. :really:

I think how the Landstill matchup plays out is going to vary from list to list of CB/Top but since Landstill has a better late game than most CB/Top decks I think you want to try and go aggro-control against them boarding out your slow controlling cards in favor of efficient disruption. I played against Landstill 3 times last weekend going 2-1 but its an uphill battle for sure. Playing Probasco CB I boarded as follows:

-3 Sower -1 Firespout, -2 Veldalken Shackles, -1 Ponder, -1 EE
+3 Duress +2 REB +1-2 Ancient Grudge(depends on opp list 2 if you see Disk and Crucible) +1 Pithing Needle

This is probably one of the few matchups where I'd like to have Dark Confidant in my deck as hes quite strong against them.

I missed the discussion about the "steal creature" setup, how could it be optimal? while so many people run sower of temptation i can't agree this plan, i tried it for myself and i am sure that on the 0815 countertop lists you wont be able or at least don't want to waste counterspells just to protect the sower which dies so quickly at least on the aggro matchup it catches to much hate imo. So the alternates would be Shackles, Threats of disloyality, Control Magic, each works very great on its own, but i guess the potential of sower is that u can get any creature no matter how much casting cost or power/toughness. I think for this reason Control magic would be the better choice as an enchantment for cc4 it doesn't catch as many hate as the sower and i am sure that u never get potential of sower being a 2/2 creature.

what do we board against the more common Natural order/Progenitus combo? i am sure i wont reveal a card with cc4 on my balance and cant trust in force of will on its own, would duress be the sideboardchoice again or maybe something like Perish or hibernation?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire

what do we board against the more common Natural order/Progenitus combo? i am sure i wont reveal a card with cc4 on my balance and cant trust in force of will on its own, would duress be the sideboardchoice again or maybe something like Perish or hibernation?

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Here is what I've tested in different CB-Top decks:

Perish, CoP: Colour of choice, Meekstone (in Probasco NLU).

Do you think this build is fine? I'm trying to build a normal UGW CounterTop, but i'm deciding between Qasali Pridemage and Trygon Predator.

One helps Goyf Wars, and can be a proactive threat, but due to the presence of Swords, Sower and Shackles MD, the other seems more reliable and can also be pitched to FoW.

So there's my build now, still optimizing it.

UGW CounterTop

Lands
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage // Trygon Predator
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Maybe I can cut 1 Ponder, 1 Predator and 1 CB to add 3 Spell Snares to help me against some matchups. The list would be the following:

UGW CounterTop

Lands
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Well, it will take lots and lots of testing before next tournament.