What cards did you hit with Woodfall Primus? Would Witness+Vapor or Firestorm been better?
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What cards did you hit with Woodfall Primus? Would Witness+Vapor or Firestorm been better?
Well, he played Enchantress. I guarantee Woodfall Primus was a monster against Enchantress. Taking out two Prison/Moat/Elephant Grasses in one fell swoop is ungodly good.
Beyond that, no telling. Interesting list. It looks similar to mine at the moment. (I don't run the Primus main, I run Witness over Sage because it's just better, and I've got 4 Careful Study/4 Breakthrough main), but I've got the Unmasks and Firestorms all in board like you.
I agree with the assessment that Unmask is at its absolute best on whichever postboard game you're on the play. (Which is usually game three, as Ichorid's best games tend to be game 1 and worst games tend to be game 2 when they go first and you have to play Guess The Hate.)
It hit lands, Aether Vial, Propaganda... it served also as a finisher when Sage or Zealot wasn't around. It feels safer when I have an out to random enchantments and artifacts. My meta is stupidly random, so you need to be prepared to anything, and having an out to almost anything sounds good in my books.
I tested Witness with the one-of Firestorm, but the deck had the bad habit of not having lands in play when I had Witness as a Dread Return target. The Sage is indeed worse, but it's more straightforward and has a lesser chance to fizzle. I already have an out to Propaganda effect so the return a LED to attack seems unecessary.
Yeah that makes sense. I playtested against Enchantress and man is that matchup really annoying for Ichorid. They have so many stupid enchantments that screw you over.
I already wrote a lot of PM's and tested LED Ichorid in a bunch of matchups and I still can't understand why people are running special creatures to bring back with Dread Return. I used to do so as well because I was simply netdecking, but after having played this deck in more than 20 tournaments up to now I feel the additional Dread Return targets like FKZ, Sage and whatever people are running are not really necessary and fall in the category "danger of cool things".
This deck already has 4 excellent Dread Return targets that are our best dredger as well at the same time: Golgari Grave Troll.
For me a ~ 10/10 regenerating fatty was always enough of a beefy creature to win my games with. Running more Dread Return targets than this may allow for many cool tricks but they clog up your opening hands and lead to unnecessary inconsistency. The deck is working so much smoother without them and without additional Dread Return targets there is no need to run more than 2 Dread Return in order to make them useful.
I still like running special metagame creatures in my board for matchups that might occur (Woodfall Primus vs Enchantress, Staxx and the Mighty Quinn) is a good example. I see the usefulness of these creatures, they solve specific problems.
After having tested Unmask a lot I also have to admit that I really like it, especially for its awesomeness in game 3. I am however only running them in my board as my MVP sideboard card because they are often weak when you are on the draw and don't support the deck's main game plan effectively: Dredge, win.
I'm still running FKZ and Eternal Witness. FKZ allows me to speed up my goldfish, which matters often enough. Witness allows me to take back any kind of protection (or Breakthrough to combo off) I might need at that time. At any other time, it's just one dead Dredge. Though I wish it were black.
In my sideboard, I run one Ancestor's Chosen, because it can just steal games against a lot of decks.
So what does your decklist look like? Cause it sounds like you have a couple more slots than "us", so I'd like to see.
If you'd drop the DR-targets, what would you prefer to get in return? An extra Golgari Thug, or a discard outlet like Tireless Tribe?
What is everyone's thoughts on the Reveillarks that have been popping up in some lists lately?
I am pro-Lark... He is a very vicious critter... Bring him back off of a Return... Sac him to Therapy... bring in two massive trolls and win... (ideally) Otherwise he is still a very good defensive and even occasionally offensive critter.
You mean Llark MD?? I don`t discard him...i think that "Llark Dredge" has an aggro philosophy while "Witness Dredge" has a combo one.Quote:
Originally Posted by snackfu
I've been testing a bit yesterday and I don't really like Eternal Witness. Somehow I often draw her, which is useless, and I've replaced her with a singleton Tireless Tribe, which suited alot better. Am I crazy, completely playing Ichorid wrong, or just had bad luck? The times where I could DR Eternal Witness I was already winning and I'd figure I might just as well DR a Troll, because he's bigger.
I ran a list very similar to the primer at a local tournament and went 5-0 placing first with it.
I was rather pleased with the eternal witness over cephalid sage (it feels great to breakthrough twice in a turn). I've run tireless tribe in the non-LED version, but after I got LED's any extra discard he provides seems redundant. Especially with cabal therapy and unmask. Most of the time a reanimated witness finishes the game same turn she comes in.
In hindsight, there was a lack of hate, combo, and blue in general, so unmask main wasn't as hot as it could have been. Though it wrecked a few people's opening seven optimized a slow start a few games.
That's why I cut both Witness and Flame Kin Zealot. Troll is already in the deck and he is our best dredger while being a big regenerating creature when he gets Dread Returned. There is no need to add any more reanimation targets to the list because there are already quite good ones in it and while they may win faster or come in handy to make sure you definitely win and don't give your opponent any outs those situations are rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
In all those tournament games I've played thus far I've only lost once after having dredged two thirds of my deck and getting a Troll, several zombies and therapying my opponent three times. This was against Ad Nauseam Tendrils going for a Mystical Tutor in response to my first therapy while he had LED, land, Lotus Petal in play. However even those rare scenarios don't work anymore with the new M10.
I simply don't get why people still think that discarding all of our opponents relevant cards via therapy (Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Pernicious Deed, Tarmogoyf, ...), getting a bunch of zombies and a regenerating fatty backed up with Ichorid beats is not enough to win 99% of all games.
I see the purpose of special Dread Return targets for special matchups. For example you might have all of this but be on one life against burn and Ancestors Chosen will make top decked burn useless or Woodfall Primus owns Enchantress / Staxx. But preboard I personally made the experience that no further Dread Return targets are required to win the vast majority of all games. Perhaps people who are bad at hitting with Cabal Therapy need those reanimation targets to make sure they win.
So when you don't play FKZ and Sage/Witness 2 Dread Returns is definitely enough and thus you got many slots to add some consistency to the deck. You get less opening hands that are full of FKZ, Dread Return, and Witness...
For me it works and added a lot of consistency. You can't win turn one any longer without FKZ and most games are like grinding your opponent down but as a tradeoff the deck works more stable and the flashy wins were overkill most of the time anyway.
A major issue I have with Eternal Witness is that once you DR her, you need mana to cast whatever utility you've gotten out of your graveyard. That's mana I often don't have. Now, Parcher came up with a report where he used 2 Sadistic Hypnotist in his list. That looks pretty cool to me, although I often fail to be able to DR turn 2 or 3, but I guess I'm just lacking experience there. Another point is that you need your bridges to be able to really screw your opponent, but it looks very strong if you can pull it off.
Parcher: Excellent job at Vestal (now did you get the hypnotist idea from me or elsewhere? I posted it as a suggestion months ago in the nond led thread and have been toying with it myself). How did you feel about abanoning the quick win with zealot? How did you board against your matchups(specifics were not in the report)
Vintage lists have been running Hypnotist for a good 6-8 months pretty regularly. After some significant testing, I found adding the 4th Coliseum put me to an acceptable place where I comfortably got him into play by turn three on the play, and two on the draw (the extra card let me activate Coliseum earlier) on a semi-regular basis. Since you can never guarantee enough Bridges, and/or Narcos to hit for twenty in these cases, Hypnotist is often better. All you need is two total creatures (PImp and Tribe count) and two Bridges to empty their hand. The win is most often easy after that. You do leave yourself open to a raw topdeck, but the odds of it being relevant, like Keller's Natural Order, are slim.
With the current deck skewed heavily against Control and Combo, I needed a sideboard able to slow the game against Aggro. The Tribes, Grudges, Firestorms, and Chosen came in for Unmask, LED, DA and a Hypnotist in these. Against Control, I left in Unmask instead of Firestorm, and only brought Chain instead of Tribe/Grudge if they ran Black. The extra City was not only to help with the off-color sideboard cards since I replaced it with a Coliseum, but also as a twelfth lands in some matches.
I did miss Witness for post board games though. He might go back for one Hypno, since if you can get either during an early combo you'll likely win. But mostly to grab Firestorm or Chain post-board. He might just be getting greedy though.
Hypnotist is interesting.
Generally, while I find it not a guarantee to swing for the lethal 20 with a Flame-Kin Zealot, that even swinging for 10-12ish and having access to a Cabal Therapy in the yard is enough to assure a win. And if I do get a mass explosion, I'd much rather have the Flame-Kin. And early, often I'd rather have the Witness than either one.
That said, the neat thing about Sadistic Hypnotist is that he's a black creature. This means he pitches to Unmask and fuels an Ichorid when it's necessary to do either, rather than sitting there like a useless lump.
EDIT:
@Skeggi: Not necessarily. If you're out of mana, just Witness a Lion's Eye Diamond, play it, and flash back Deep Analysis with it.
okay... T1-Tech... hmmm Hypnotist looks very good, and 2 looks like a good number, because 1 is more or less random...
I can understand, that you don't need an FKZ if you strip their hand with Hypnotist, you can win easily and don't need to win now, but I can never understand how you could cut Witness.
It's an AWESOME card, that can do anything, and postboard she is just more better, isn't there any other card to cut to put Witness back in other than Hypnotist?
...just a little question, how about switching 1 City against 1 Paradise?
...and the very important question for me:
your new Sideboard looks very good, except that I don't like Grudges and I am missing the Wispmares somehow, but...
you don't play Needles, and you don't play Gargadons or stuff like that, you are only playing 2!!! Grudges, and that can't be enough to fight Crypts/Relics, so how do you handle them?
YawG
As I said, I'm not totally sold on the list as is. My goal with this specific version was to maximize the odds of an early Hypnotist, and to see how effectively that won games. Especially in cases when FKZ would not have been lethal. I was confidant with the list in this tournament though. And since this was the first tournament with this, changes will likely be made to improve. The three Dread Returns will stay for certain, though it pained me to move an Unmask back to the board. The third proved relevant in just too many completely different situations for me to ignore any longer.
In conjunction with PImp and Tribe, I didn't think I would need more against Crypt/Relic, since they can often beat Crypt alone by slow dredging. I was wrong about this using only two Grudges however, and found myself bringing in Chain as well to force their hand. Some compromise will have to be made between the two. Or, if I go back to a Witness+Firestorm in the main, I'll just go back to using Gargadon since my win percentage against Aggro will go back up game one. I didn't miss the Wispmare since the combination of Therapy and Hypnotist got rid of any problematic enchantments, or the ability to effectively use them, before a need to destroy them. If I had faced Leyline, I would have regretted, it though.
EDIT: With Zoo gaining in popularity, and the Landstill decks adding Path to Exile to their sideboard as well to supplement Plow, I think Gargadon is going to become more important to run. Especially since to compete with Combo, CounterTop, and Merfolk, they usually won't have room for direct graveyard hate.
what is the real purpose of the 3BB guy?? Do you want to run a "combo control deck" more than a "pure combo"??