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I don't really get the appeal of Natural Order. A different colored deck would be able to protect it so much better. BUG or GWU for example. Sure it can be a surprise win, but it's way too clunky. It's 4cmc double green, we only run 8-12 green creatures, and we have no ways to force a resolve or protect Progenitus once it resolves. Our gameplan is disrupt + efficient creatures. NO is SB material at best.
@ NO PRO package
It's something that could really be put into any archtype that uses green to a certain degree. I'm not a personal fan of it, but it's an option. Kind of like if we wanted, we could pull off Vampire Hexmage + Dark Depths package since we can tutor up Dark Depths with Knight.
put hexmage isn't bad by itself. it can knock out planeswalkers, reset things like ee, smokestack, jitte. No on the other hand seems only good with a creature.I don't like when non blue decks try to do "sneaky" things like NO. It's different in elves because they just have a lot of protection for things like NO. @ doran. I think i will drop 1 and add a witness, i think i might also try to either fit in a karakas or maybe a stronghold. Karakas is crazy cool with doran... If the karaks is on your side of the table. It also helps in several of our matchups. however i don't think it's worth me spending like 30 dollars on it. i feel the card is just ok.
A resolved Linvala wrecks Ooze. It not only shuts down Ooze but also Fauna Shaman, Birds, Hierarch and Quirion Ranger. In short it rapes their mana and shuts down 1/2 of their Survival effects. If it cost 2 mana, it'd be an auto 4-of. At 4 mana and double white? Too little too late. If you had more disruption like Leonin Arbiter or Suppression Field which came down on T2 and used Linvala to seal it, that'd work, but it'd require a lot of building around.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy
what do you guys think about adding perhaps 1 or 2 jotun grunts. Yes he CAN shrink knight and goyf. But since we have relatively few threats it could be nice. recycling threats is never a bad thing either
Jotun grunt might be useful recycling threats and wastelands.. but in the end, you wouldn't want a creature who dies to itself. And even with tons of cards in the graveyard, you also don't want to make your knight smaller....
In thinking so.. anyone ever tried to put maybe 2 hexmage and a single dark depths in here?
I was reading the meta breakdown at World's, and I noticed that Rock is referred to as 'Junk':
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...0/leg/metagame
Is there a reason why Rock, a pretty established archetype, goes by a number of names depending on the tourney report? In SCG, it's called Dark Horizon from time to time, and to Wizards, it's Junk (why is it called Junk anyway?)
SCG is stupid because it started to appear when New Horizons was still popular, and both decks played Knight of the Reliquary, so since we also played black, it was named Dark Horizons.
As for Junk, I believe that's a name that's been used in the past. It goes by many names (even by SCG): Junk, Rock, BWG Rock, Dark Horizons, etc. They're all one and the same :cool:
-Matt
Right now i'm just coming up with ideas of cards. Yes the list is solid. Most of my ideas will be stupid, but every once in a while it will be a good one. :) I think i love grunt was because i used to play deadguy ale. He was stupid good in that deck. Junk was used a lot when doran, deed, vindicate etc were all legal in extended. This deck also was sometimes called tarmofolk. Matt you tried the old lists with birds and such with a bunch of witnesses and therapy. How did you like it? O but also there are some general lists that are given to certain rock builds.
Bad news... Survival was 24% of the field and only got 2 of the top 8 slots.
I just find the name Junk to be somewhat rude. We play some of the best creatures ever, and that's called Junk? ~.~Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
@ Junk
I call the deck Junk. IDK, I sort've like it. When the three colored names started coming out, Bant, Jund, Naya, etc, Junk was also developed for BWG. When I hear Rock, I think of Classic Rocks colors, B/G.
When ppl ask what I'm playing, I generally say "Just a pile of Junk" and then proceed to whoop ass. I find it fun :D
as to Dark Horizons, New Horizons plays Horizon Canopy and has a lot of disruption. Dark Horizons also plays Horizon Canopy but plays a lot of destruction. It's kind of saying, I play Bant Aggro, or I play NO Pro Bant. difference, a new package is added to the decktype and a name to represent that change is present. Same for for Rock, Dark Horizons, Junk. (BWG Rock would be for the older players, like myself, who think of Rock as B/G)
@ Jotun Grunt
Sure it's not bad, but totally against what Rock is trying to do, fill the graveyards. To provide aggressive beats, we need our 2 best creatures to apply pressure. Jotun Grunts turn our pressure beaters in a minor nuisance. We have enough targeting graveyard hate to not need the grunt. Again, just my 2 cents.
@ Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage package
I personally have not, Dark Depths is a still an overpriced card imo, so I haven't bothered. It seems to have been an experimental thing in Europe as I saw two Rock decks place in the top 8 of a tournament over there using using this idea. I figured I could at least mention it.
Rock seem's bad on paper... But it really is pretty good once you test it. Yes it CAN shrink goyf or knight, but after turn or so like 15 there are quite a few cards in both yards. I think you guys are right. It just isn't powerful enough to replace something like witness.
I do agree with Zein wholeheartedly. I really don't like DD. We have big creatures. Yes hexmage is good by itself, but it is outclassed by bob and goyf in everyway. also that's one utility land that you can't use anymore due to DD. And it isn't worth it to add urborg
Junk could also just be for the irony factor: We play the best of everything, so we'll just call it "Junk."
:cool:
-Matt
As I read this, I wonder: what would make this decktype a Deck to Beat? We place just as well, if not better, then Merfolk and Zoo. The decktype is played more often then Zoo, right under Merfolk and TES. Or are Decks to Beat decktypes that need to place 1st more then once a month?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I think it's because it's not played ENOUGH. I think if nothing changes with the B/R list, and we go into another SCG event with at least another Top 8, I'll get a request in to move this to DTB. I'm pretty sure Zoo's still in there, even though it hasn't done jack in months, and neither has Merfolk (well, some, but not like before VV).
-Matt
Just out of curiosity, why is Maze of Ith considered to be so abusive with Knight of the Reliquary? You cannot attack, deal damage, and then untap him to use his ability. At least, not according to the Oracle text.
Oracle Text: Tap: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn.
If damage is dealt, he wouldn't be considered an attacking creature post damage would he?
@ sdematt
how is it not played enough? According to the last 2 reports put out from SCG and a few European tournments, Rock is 3rd ranked played deck. Survival based being #1, Merfolk being #2, of which, it's just as good placings as Merfolk.
After the damage is dealt, creatures are still considered attacking until the phase ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy
I don't know, there's only 1% or something of the metagame that is playing Rock, so I'm not sure. I could ask, but I'd like to see whether Survival gets banned or not before I ask to get moved to DTB.
@ Maze:
After damage, there's an "End of Combat" phase, where "until end of combat" things stop, but you can untap after having dealt damage.
-Matt
I've been playing this deck for a while now and I've been thinking about keepable hands. What would you consider a keepable hand? Obviously an optimal hand would look something like 2-3 land, 0-1 mox, 1-2 disruption, 1-2 removal, 1-2 creatures, and a Top is always nice. Give or take and obviously depending on what you were facing.
The thing I've been noticing lately is that I've been keeping hands that are perhaps decent, but just aren't cutting it. I've found that keeping a four land hand usually means I get completely mana flooded the rest of the game. I've also been noticing that hands without t1 or t2 disruption don't cut it when my opponent is on his game. Early discard in particular is starting very important, maybe essential, to this deck's strategy.
So, what kinds of hands do you keep and throw back? 4 lands, 3 creatures? 2 lands, 2 dudes, 1 Top, 2 Swords? Wasteland, Dual, double Hymn, Creature, 2 Vindicate? Etc... I play tight, I SB well, and I tune the shit out of my decks, but I feel where I'm most lacking is when and when not to mulligan. Thanks for any input.
Also, tried Selkies today for great success. Selkie + Elspeth is just plain unfair. 4 unblockable damage, draw 4 cards? Ok thanks.
I am having trouble with the mulls. Not what to keep and throwback, but more that the mulls are just hard because i don't play mox I can be off my colors. But i can see having just as much of a problem with getting 2 mox. Also with double black or g/w needed on t2 the lands can really punish you if you try and gamble.